Let's talk about langages (Advice/Help)
Aug 14th 2004, 1:45 am
#16
Guest
Posts: n/a
Re: Let's talk about langages (Advice/Help)
On Sat, 14 Aug 2004 14:39:56 +0100, Padraig Breathnach
<[email protected]> wrote:
>Mxsmanic <[email protected]> wrote:
>>Ruud Harmsen writes:
>>> Watching TV, especially recent news items, offers a lot of context and
>>> non-linguistic clues too.
>>Not nearly as much as face-to-face conversation. I have lots of
>>students who do well in face-to-face conversation but can barely make
>>out a single word in TV and radio broadcasts.
>To what extent is that because their interlocutors adjust to their
>needs -- speaking more slowly and correctly, simplifying language
>structure, checking that what they say is understood?
IMO about 99.9%
>I find that comprehensibility of TV broadcasts varies from highly
>accessible to just about totally incomprehensible. Face-to-camera
>programmes, like news bulletins, are generally easier for me.
because CNN is real rubbish? :-)
<[email protected]> wrote:
>Mxsmanic <[email protected]> wrote:
>>Ruud Harmsen writes:
>>> Watching TV, especially recent news items, offers a lot of context and
>>> non-linguistic clues too.
>>Not nearly as much as face-to-face conversation. I have lots of
>>students who do well in face-to-face conversation but can barely make
>>out a single word in TV and radio broadcasts.
>To what extent is that because their interlocutors adjust to their
>needs -- speaking more slowly and correctly, simplifying language
>structure, checking that what they say is understood?
IMO about 99.9%
>I find that comprehensibility of TV broadcasts varies from highly
>accessible to just about totally incomprehensible. Face-to-camera
>programmes, like news bulletins, are generally easier for me.
because CNN is real rubbish? :-)
Aug 14th 2004, 2:58 am
#17
Guest
Posts: n/a
Re: Let's talk about langages (Advice/Help)
Mxsmanic wrote:
>
> One is my native language; the other I learned out of personal interest.
> I've briefly studied a few others, but never long enough to develop any
> useful ability in those other languages.
What do you consider "useful" ability? Speaking fluently? Being able to
ask for a beer? Knowing Grammar structure? Knowing the most vocabular? etc?
>>So, I grew up in France. I was in France from 2-9, but I went to an
>>American school. Still I was exposed to a lot of French. Never ever
>>really got fluent, but I have the accent and pronounciation in me.
>
>
> Accent and pronunciation are not wired in. Your early experience might
> provide enough memories to help you if you were to pursue the language
> again, however.
Well,apparently I picked it up very fast after a 10 year layoff ("you
speak and read very well, are you Francophone?" many instrutors have
asked me). As an example, others seem to have problems with that 'r' in
*r*egarde*r*ai. Or problems with the 'g' in Paris St. *G*ermain.
>>It's pretty much French with a different dictionary!
>
>
> Only as compared to Chinese.
I don't understand what you mean.
>>1) Does it matter that you can't understand audio?
>
>
> If you ever wish to converse in the language, yes, it matters a lot.
You missunderstand. I realize the importance of all three areas
(listening, reading, and speaking) I mean for learning purposes, at an
early stage, should I be trying to listen to streams of RAI even if I
don't understand it well enough?
>>2) I'm greedy. I want to learn another language. I'm torn. Is it a bad
>>idea to start learning a THIRD language while I'm at staggered levels
>>of French and Italian? It won't mess me up will it?
>
>
> It depends on your goals. It takes about two years of nearly full-time
> study to go from zero to a reasonable level of fluency in a foreign
> language of the same family as your own (e.g., another European
> language). If you jump from one to another you're not going to develop
> this fluency. However, it's up to you. Some people really do pick up
> languages extraordinarily fast, but most simply don't realize how little
> they've learned until they are actually forced to use the languages
> they've been studying.
Hmm.
> Remember, it took you a decade to learn your native language.
>
>
>>The main thing is that I want to be better at what I'm doing, and I'm
>>finding it really rewarding when I see or hear the odd phrases in
>>movies or print, and I recognize them because of my studies!
>
>
> Then this might not be the moment to start on yet another language.
Thanks for your advice!
Which are your two languages?
>
> One is my native language; the other I learned out of personal interest.
> I've briefly studied a few others, but never long enough to develop any
> useful ability in those other languages.
What do you consider "useful" ability? Speaking fluently? Being able to
ask for a beer? Knowing Grammar structure? Knowing the most vocabular? etc?
>>So, I grew up in France. I was in France from 2-9, but I went to an
>>American school. Still I was exposed to a lot of French. Never ever
>>really got fluent, but I have the accent and pronounciation in me.
>
>
> Accent and pronunciation are not wired in. Your early experience might
> provide enough memories to help you if you were to pursue the language
> again, however.
Well,apparently I picked it up very fast after a 10 year layoff ("you
speak and read very well, are you Francophone?" many instrutors have
asked me). As an example, others seem to have problems with that 'r' in
*r*egarde*r*ai. Or problems with the 'g' in Paris St. *G*ermain.
>>It's pretty much French with a different dictionary!
>
>
> Only as compared to Chinese.
I don't understand what you mean.
>>1) Does it matter that you can't understand audio?
>
>
> If you ever wish to converse in the language, yes, it matters a lot.
You missunderstand. I realize the importance of all three areas
(listening, reading, and speaking) I mean for learning purposes, at an
early stage, should I be trying to listen to streams of RAI even if I
don't understand it well enough?
>>2) I'm greedy. I want to learn another language. I'm torn. Is it a bad
>>idea to start learning a THIRD language while I'm at staggered levels
>>of French and Italian? It won't mess me up will it?
>
>
> It depends on your goals. It takes about two years of nearly full-time
> study to go from zero to a reasonable level of fluency in a foreign
> language of the same family as your own (e.g., another European
> language). If you jump from one to another you're not going to develop
> this fluency. However, it's up to you. Some people really do pick up
> languages extraordinarily fast, but most simply don't realize how little
> they've learned until they are actually forced to use the languages
> they've been studying.
Hmm.
> Remember, it took you a decade to learn your native language.
>
>
>>The main thing is that I want to be better at what I'm doing, and I'm
>>finding it really rewarding when I see or hear the odd phrases in
>>movies or print, and I recognize them because of my studies!
>
>
> Then this might not be the moment to start on yet another language.
Thanks for your advice!
Which are your two languages?
Aug 14th 2004, 3:39 am
#18
BE Site Lead
Joined: Aug 2004
Location: MA, USA
Posts: 92,176
Re: Let's talk about langages (Advice/Help)
Originally Posted by Wassup its Will
Greetings,
[Some background info, you can skip to the questions at the end if you
want. Also, apologies for the crosspost, but I feel that it is
actually an interesting and relevant discussion to all groups.]
Do most of you speak a lot of languages? How many? Why and how? Here
is my current situation, I wonder what you guys think:
So, I grew up in France. I was in France from 2-9, but I went to an
American school. Still I was exposed to a lot of French. Never ever
really got fluent, but I have the accent and pronounciation in me.
Picked up French for two years in High School during my Freshmen and
Sophomore years. Then didn't do a language again until the past year
and a half I took French up to the intermediate level in college. I am
now a 23 year old college graduate.
I can speak enough French to make sense now, and enough that if I was
in France, I could get around without having to speak English (even
though I'd butcher the French.) However, I'm not at the level yet
where I can read newspapers without thinking a lot of what I'm
reading. My speaking is probably ahead of my writing which is ahead of
my reading (to understand, not to actually read.)
Anyway, a couple of months ago, I decided to add Italian. Why Italian?
Well, it's a romance language too. Plus my favorite soccer team and
player outside of England is AS Roma in Italy. I'm picking it up
pretty fast, I'm concentrating more on grammar and tenses. It's pretty
much French with a different dictionary! So I'm picking it up at a
faster rate than I did French (especially as at I'm at a more advanced
level of french where at some point, it's more vocabulary and abstract
grammar i.e. subjunctive and complex tenses). I can introduce myself
and talk briefly about myself and others in Italian.
I study them both, I make up my own syllabi and follow them. For
French, I sometimes go to bed listening to French radio, and I do some
reading out loud. For Italian, I read out sentences, but I don't feel
that I'm comfortable enough to go into audio yet.
Now my questions:-
1) Does it matter that you can't understand audio? Should I listen to
Italian radio as well?
2) I'm greedy. I want to learn another language. I'm torn. Is it a bad
idea to start learning a THIRD language while I'm at staggered levels
of French and Italian? It won't mess me up will it?
3) Three languages. I don't know which to choose. I'm debating between
Spanish, Russian and German. Each have their advantages and
disadvantages.
I have a few Latin friends, as a soccer fan it'd be great to read the
Spanish media like La Marca?
German will be a departure from the comfortable "romance language"
thing I've got going. I'm also into history, and philosophy, and there
is probably a lot of German literature on that> I just admire German
civilization throughout history.
Then there is Russian for the challenge. Non-Roman alphabet.
Is there anything you can tell me about the disadvantages and
dissadvantages of the aforementioned three languages?
The main thing is that I want to be better at what I'm doing, and I'm
finding it really rewarding when I see or hear the odd phrases in
movies or print, and I recognize them because of my studies!
Sincerely yours,
William.
[Some background info, you can skip to the questions at the end if you
want. Also, apologies for the crosspost, but I feel that it is
actually an interesting and relevant discussion to all groups.]
Do most of you speak a lot of languages? How many? Why and how? Here
is my current situation, I wonder what you guys think:
So, I grew up in France. I was in France from 2-9, but I went to an
American school. Still I was exposed to a lot of French. Never ever
really got fluent, but I have the accent and pronounciation in me.
Picked up French for two years in High School during my Freshmen and
Sophomore years. Then didn't do a language again until the past year
and a half I took French up to the intermediate level in college. I am
now a 23 year old college graduate.
I can speak enough French to make sense now, and enough that if I was
in France, I could get around without having to speak English (even
though I'd butcher the French.) However, I'm not at the level yet
where I can read newspapers without thinking a lot of what I'm
reading. My speaking is probably ahead of my writing which is ahead of
my reading (to understand, not to actually read.)
Anyway, a couple of months ago, I decided to add Italian. Why Italian?
Well, it's a romance language too. Plus my favorite soccer team and
player outside of England is AS Roma in Italy. I'm picking it up
pretty fast, I'm concentrating more on grammar and tenses. It's pretty
much French with a different dictionary! So I'm picking it up at a
faster rate than I did French (especially as at I'm at a more advanced
level of french where at some point, it's more vocabulary and abstract
grammar i.e. subjunctive and complex tenses). I can introduce myself
and talk briefly about myself and others in Italian.
I study them both, I make up my own syllabi and follow them. For
French, I sometimes go to bed listening to French radio, and I do some
reading out loud. For Italian, I read out sentences, but I don't feel
that I'm comfortable enough to go into audio yet.
Now my questions:-
1) Does it matter that you can't understand audio? Should I listen to
Italian radio as well?
2) I'm greedy. I want to learn another language. I'm torn. Is it a bad
idea to start learning a THIRD language while I'm at staggered levels
of French and Italian? It won't mess me up will it?
3) Three languages. I don't know which to choose. I'm debating between
Spanish, Russian and German. Each have their advantages and
disadvantages.
I have a few Latin friends, as a soccer fan it'd be great to read the
Spanish media like La Marca?
German will be a departure from the comfortable "romance language"
thing I've got going. I'm also into history, and philosophy, and there
is probably a lot of German literature on that> I just admire German
civilization throughout history.
Then there is Russian for the challenge. Non-Roman alphabet.
Is there anything you can tell me about the disadvantages and
dissadvantages of the aforementioned three languages?
The main thing is that I want to be better at what I'm doing, and I'm
finding it really rewarding when I see or hear the odd phrases in
movies or print, and I recognize them because of my studies!
Sincerely yours,
William.
I'd go with Russian, the alphabet ain't so hard and the language, once you have the letters fit into place...according to the missus, she picked it up reasonably easily....
Aug 14th 2004, 5:42 am
#19
Guest
Posts: n/a
Re: Let's talk about langages (Advice/Help)
I think it is better to complete learning a foreign language and become
fluent and able to understand the news on TV before starting to learn
another one. Being able to understand a few words is cool, but not as useful
as managing a normal conversation with individuals.
> >>1) Does it matter that you can't understand audio?
> >
> >
> > If you ever wish to converse in the language, yes, it matters a lot.
> You missunderstand. I realize the importance of all three areas
> (listening, reading, and speaking) I mean for learning purposes, at an
> early stage, should I be trying to listen to streams of RAI even if I
> don't understand it well enough?
Yes, but it is better if you have a written copy of what they say. A
combination of hearing and reading provides you with both auditive and
visual memory of the words and phrases as well as prononciation. For me, it
made me learn at least 3 times faster with a teacher and practicing dialog
then just reading self-learning language books. And I had to changed
dramatically my prononciation of russian words. But the top of learning
methods is immersion. When you really have to make big efforts to
communicate, you learn extremely quickly.
fluent and able to understand the news on TV before starting to learn
another one. Being able to understand a few words is cool, but not as useful
as managing a normal conversation with individuals.
> >>1) Does it matter that you can't understand audio?
> >
> >
> > If you ever wish to converse in the language, yes, it matters a lot.
> You missunderstand. I realize the importance of all three areas
> (listening, reading, and speaking) I mean for learning purposes, at an
> early stage, should I be trying to listen to streams of RAI even if I
> don't understand it well enough?
Yes, but it is better if you have a written copy of what they say. A
combination of hearing and reading provides you with both auditive and
visual memory of the words and phrases as well as prononciation. For me, it
made me learn at least 3 times faster with a teacher and practicing dialog
then just reading self-learning language books. And I had to changed
dramatically my prononciation of russian words. But the top of learning
methods is immersion. When you really have to make big efforts to
communicate, you learn extremely quickly.
Aug 14th 2004, 6:26 am
#20
Guest
Posts: n/a
Re: Let's talk about langages (Advice/Help)
Padraig Breathnach writes:
> To what extent is that because their interlocutors adjust to their
> needs -- speaking more slowly and correctly, simplifying language
> structure, checking that what they say is understood?
To a great extent. Unfortunately, that creates the false impression
that the speaker is more competent than she really is, for both her and
her interlocutor.
> I find that comprehensibility of TV broadcasts varies from highly
> accessible to just about totally incomprehensible. Face-to-camera
> programmes, like news bulletins, are generally easier for me.
Many of my students can't even understand that, although they get by
surprisingly well face-to-face.
One test I use is to ask a completely off-the-wall question. If they
are fluent, they understand and reply. If I get a blank look, I know
that they are depending on non-linguistic cues or other "crutches" to
understand what is being said.
--
Transpose hotmail and mxsmanic in my e-mail address to reach me directly.
> To what extent is that because their interlocutors adjust to their
> needs -- speaking more slowly and correctly, simplifying language
> structure, checking that what they say is understood?
To a great extent. Unfortunately, that creates the false impression
that the speaker is more competent than she really is, for both her and
her interlocutor.
> I find that comprehensibility of TV broadcasts varies from highly
> accessible to just about totally incomprehensible. Face-to-camera
> programmes, like news bulletins, are generally easier for me.
Many of my students can't even understand that, although they get by
surprisingly well face-to-face.
One test I use is to ask a completely off-the-wall question. If they
are fluent, they understand and reply. If I get a blank look, I know
that they are depending on non-linguistic cues or other "crutches" to
understand what is being said.
--
Transpose hotmail and mxsmanic in my e-mail address to reach me directly.
Aug 14th 2004, 6:30 am
#21
Guest
Posts: n/a
Re: Let's talk about langages (Advice/Help)
©N¥ikuli, Williåm© writes:
> What do you consider "useful" ability? Speaking fluently?
The ability to hold an extended conversation on a randomly-chosen
subject is a good indicator.
> Well,apparently I picked it up very fast after a 10 year layoff ("you
> speak and read very well, are you Francophone?" many instrutors have
> asked me).
In the United States, instructors tend to be so incompetent in the
spoken languages they teach that anyone other than a rank beginner
sounds native to them. I got the same comment in high school in my
first-year French class, even though I had only studied the language
over the summer out of a little paperback book. I wonder if these
instructors had ever heard the real thing anywhere.
> As an example, others seem to have problems with that 'r' in
> *r*egarde*r*ai. Or problems with the 'g' in Paris St. *G*ermain.
They are both easy to pronounce if you have a good instructor. Being
able to pronounce them isn't necessarily correlated with overall
competence, though.
> I don't understand what you mean.
Italian and French are similar only if you compare them to French vs.
Chinese.
> You missunderstand. I realize the importance of all three areas
> (listening, reading, and speaking) I mean for learning purposes, at an
> early stage, should I be trying to listen to streams of RAI even if I
> don't understand it well enough?
It never hurts, although you might not profit very much from it in the
beginning. Part of it depends on how good you are at picking things up
from listening alone.
> Which are your two languages?
French and English
--
Transpose hotmail and mxsmanic in my e-mail address to reach me directly.
> What do you consider "useful" ability? Speaking fluently?
The ability to hold an extended conversation on a randomly-chosen
subject is a good indicator.
> Well,apparently I picked it up very fast after a 10 year layoff ("you
> speak and read very well, are you Francophone?" many instrutors have
> asked me).
In the United States, instructors tend to be so incompetent in the
spoken languages they teach that anyone other than a rank beginner
sounds native to them. I got the same comment in high school in my
first-year French class, even though I had only studied the language
over the summer out of a little paperback book. I wonder if these
instructors had ever heard the real thing anywhere.
> As an example, others seem to have problems with that 'r' in
> *r*egarde*r*ai. Or problems with the 'g' in Paris St. *G*ermain.
They are both easy to pronounce if you have a good instructor. Being
able to pronounce them isn't necessarily correlated with overall
competence, though.
> I don't understand what you mean.
Italian and French are similar only if you compare them to French vs.
Chinese.
> You missunderstand. I realize the importance of all three areas
> (listening, reading, and speaking) I mean for learning purposes, at an
> early stage, should I be trying to listen to streams of RAI even if I
> don't understand it well enough?
It never hurts, although you might not profit very much from it in the
beginning. Part of it depends on how good you are at picking things up
from listening alone.
> Which are your two languages?
French and English
--
Transpose hotmail and mxsmanic in my e-mail address to reach me directly.
Aug 14th 2004, 6:34 am
#22
Guest
Posts: n/a
Re: Let's talk about langages (Advice/Help)
DeMaisonneuve writes:
> I think it is better to complete learning a foreign language and become
> fluent and able to understand the news on TV before starting to learn
> another one.
I tend to agree. If you are really learning a language with the
intention of using it in a practical way, you should try to learn it
well before going on to any other. If all you want is an academic
knowledge of a language, there's no harm in studying more than one at a
time.
> Yes, but it is better if you have a written copy of what they say. A
> combination of hearing and reading provides you with both auditive and
> visual memory of the words and phrases as well as prononciation. For me, it
> made me learn at least 3 times faster with a teacher and practicing dialog
> then just reading self-learning language books.
In the specific cases of French, German, Spanish, or Italian, you can
subscribe to Champs-Elyées, an audiomagazine with real-world listening
material complete with transcripts. They were one of the few sources I
found for truly authentic, full-speed audio listening, instead of the
nearly useless, stunted, artificial stuff most courses offer.
--
Transpose hotmail and mxsmanic in my e-mail address to reach me directly.
> I think it is better to complete learning a foreign language and become
> fluent and able to understand the news on TV before starting to learn
> another one.
I tend to agree. If you are really learning a language with the
intention of using it in a practical way, you should try to learn it
well before going on to any other. If all you want is an academic
knowledge of a language, there's no harm in studying more than one at a
time.
> Yes, but it is better if you have a written copy of what they say. A
> combination of hearing and reading provides you with both auditive and
> visual memory of the words and phrases as well as prononciation. For me, it
> made me learn at least 3 times faster with a teacher and practicing dialog
> then just reading self-learning language books.
In the specific cases of French, German, Spanish, or Italian, you can
subscribe to Champs-Elyées, an audiomagazine with real-world listening
material complete with transcripts. They were one of the few sources I
found for truly authentic, full-speed audio listening, instead of the
nearly useless, stunted, artificial stuff most courses offer.
--
Transpose hotmail and mxsmanic in my e-mail address to reach me directly.
Aug 14th 2004, 6:34 am
#23
Guest
Posts: n/a
Re: Let's talk about langages (Advice/Help)
[email protected] writes:
> Are there really only two?
There are actually more than two, but the French are largely absent from
cyberspace.
--
Transpose hotmail and mxsmanic in my e-mail address to reach me directly.
> Are there really only two?
There are actually more than two, but the French are largely absent from
cyberspace.
--
Transpose hotmail and mxsmanic in my e-mail address to reach me directly.
Aug 14th 2004, 8:35 am
#24
Guest
Posts: n/a
Re: Let's talk about langages (Advice/Help)
Wassup its Will wrote:
> Greetings,
>
> [Some background info, you can skip to the questions at the end if you
> want. Also, apologies for the crosspost, but I feel that it is
> actually an interesting and relevant discussion to all groups.]
>
> Do most of you speak a lot of languages? How many? Why and how? Here
> is my current situation, I wonder what you guys think:
> Now my questions:-
> 1) Does it matter that you can't understand audio? Should I listen to
> Italian radio as well?
>
> 2) I'm greedy. I want to learn another language. I'm torn. Is it a bad
> idea to start learning a THIRD language while I'm at staggered levels
> of French and Italian? It won't mess me up will it?
>
> 3) Three languages. I don't know which to choose. I'm debating between
> Spanish, Russian and German. Each have their advantages and
> disadvantages.
>
> I have a few Latin friends, as a soccer fan it'd be great to read the
> Spanish media like La Marca?
>
> German will be a departure from the comfortable "romance language"
> thing I've got going. I'm also into history, and philosophy, and there
> is probably a lot of German literature on that> I just admire German
> civilization throughout history.
>
> Then there is Russian for the challenge. Non-Roman alphabet.
>
> Is there anything you can tell me about the disadvantages and
> dissadvantages of the aforementioned three languages?
>
> The main thing is that I want to be better at what I'm doing, and I'm
> finding it really rewarding when I see or hear the odd phrases in
> movies or print, and I recognize them because of my studies!
>
> Sincerely yours,
>
> William.
Bravo William! You are so lucky that you are learning languages early
and easily. In my case, Italian simply wouldn't "take" until I was in my
40s. By all means listen to as much spoken material as you can find.
News broadcasts have a limited and special vocabulary in Italian .. but
the same is true in English. If you like classical music, there are
quite a number of Italian language programs available on the Internet ..
those announcers speak more slowly and have a broader vocabulary. Some
of the Pop stations have amazing spoken commentary between songs.
billfrogg
> Greetings,
>
> [Some background info, you can skip to the questions at the end if you
> want. Also, apologies for the crosspost, but I feel that it is
> actually an interesting and relevant discussion to all groups.]
>
> Do most of you speak a lot of languages? How many? Why and how? Here
> is my current situation, I wonder what you guys think:
> Now my questions:-
> 1) Does it matter that you can't understand audio? Should I listen to
> Italian radio as well?
>
> 2) I'm greedy. I want to learn another language. I'm torn. Is it a bad
> idea to start learning a THIRD language while I'm at staggered levels
> of French and Italian? It won't mess me up will it?
>
> 3) Three languages. I don't know which to choose. I'm debating between
> Spanish, Russian and German. Each have their advantages and
> disadvantages.
>
> I have a few Latin friends, as a soccer fan it'd be great to read the
> Spanish media like La Marca?
>
> German will be a departure from the comfortable "romance language"
> thing I've got going. I'm also into history, and philosophy, and there
> is probably a lot of German literature on that> I just admire German
> civilization throughout history.
>
> Then there is Russian for the challenge. Non-Roman alphabet.
>
> Is there anything you can tell me about the disadvantages and
> dissadvantages of the aforementioned three languages?
>
> The main thing is that I want to be better at what I'm doing, and I'm
> finding it really rewarding when I see or hear the odd phrases in
> movies or print, and I recognize them because of my studies!
>
> Sincerely yours,
>
> William.
Bravo William! You are so lucky that you are learning languages early
and easily. In my case, Italian simply wouldn't "take" until I was in my
40s. By all means listen to as much spoken material as you can find.
News broadcasts have a limited and special vocabulary in Italian .. but
the same is true in English. If you like classical music, there are
quite a number of Italian language programs available on the Internet ..
those announcers speak more slowly and have a broader vocabulary. Some
of the Pop stations have amazing spoken commentary between songs.
billfrogg
Aug 14th 2004, 9:26 am
#25
Guest
Posts: n/a
Re: Let's talk about langages (Advice/Help)
"©N¥ikuli, Williåm©" <[email protected]> climbed onto
an orange crate and shouted:
>Mxsmanic wrote:
>Well,apparently I picked it up very fast after a 10 year layoff ("you
>speak and read very well, are you Francophone?" many instrutors have
>asked me). As an example, others seem to have problems with that 'r' in
>*r*egarde*r*ai. Or problems with the 'g' in Paris St. *G*ermain.
So, you can reproduce phonemes. That says nothing about your ability
to understand the language or use it in a practical way. If you can't
read a newspaper or understand announcements on the train platform,
the authenticity of your pronunciation is irrelevant.
I have a musician's ear and can mimic phonemes in quite a few
languages, but that doesn't mean I "know" Russian, Dutch, Portuguese,
and so on.
(see elsewhere "shibboleth")
--
"Our enemies are innovative and resourceful, and so are we.
They never stop thinking about new ways to harm our country
and our people, and neither do we." - GW Bush, 5 August 2004
an orange crate and shouted:
>Mxsmanic wrote:
>Well,apparently I picked it up very fast after a 10 year layoff ("you
>speak and read very well, are you Francophone?" many instrutors have
>asked me). As an example, others seem to have problems with that 'r' in
>*r*egarde*r*ai. Or problems with the 'g' in Paris St. *G*ermain.
So, you can reproduce phonemes. That says nothing about your ability
to understand the language or use it in a practical way. If you can't
read a newspaper or understand announcements on the train platform,
the authenticity of your pronunciation is irrelevant.
I have a musician's ear and can mimic phonemes in quite a few
languages, but that doesn't mean I "know" Russian, Dutch, Portuguese,
and so on.
(see elsewhere "shibboleth")
--
"Our enemies are innovative and resourceful, and so are we.
They never stop thinking about new ways to harm our country
and our people, and neither do we." - GW Bush, 5 August 2004
Aug 14th 2004, 11:23 am
#26
Guest
Posts: n/a
Re: Let's talk about langages (Advice/Help)
On Sat, 14 Aug 2004 11:53:22 +0200, Mxsmanic <[email protected]>
wrote:
I can't argue with that. Absolutely true!! I only didn't want the
learner to get discouraged if he was having trouble with tv early
on... But of course the ultimate challenge is to understand tv/radio
as that is so much harder than normal conversation.
>[email protected] writes:
>> I know lots of languages and I can say that you shouldn't get
>> discouraged by not being to understand tv or radio... That's hard.
>> You'll still be able to understand when people talk to you.
>If you don't understand radio and TV, you're not really understanding
>the language. You may have the impression that you understand better in
>person because it's easier to guess at what someone is saying when you
>have a familiar context and other non-linguistic clues. Listening to
>pure sound like television and radio is the acid test of listening
>comprehension.
wrote:
I can't argue with that. Absolutely true!! I only didn't want the
learner to get discouraged if he was having trouble with tv early
on... But of course the ultimate challenge is to understand tv/radio
as that is so much harder than normal conversation.
>[email protected] writes:
>> I know lots of languages and I can say that you shouldn't get
>> discouraged by not being to understand tv or radio... That's hard.
>> You'll still be able to understand when people talk to you.
>If you don't understand radio and TV, you're not really understanding
>the language. You may have the impression that you understand better in
>person because it's easier to guess at what someone is saying when you
>have a familiar context and other non-linguistic clues. Listening to
>pure sound like television and radio is the acid test of listening
>comprehension.
Aug 14th 2004, 12:01 pm
#27
Guest
Posts: n/a
Re: Let's talk about langages (Advice/Help)
On Sat, 14 Aug 2004 20:30:48 +0200, Mxsmanic wrote:
> In the United States, instructors tend to be so incompetent in the
> spoken languages they teach that anyone other than a rank beginner
> sounds native to them. I got the same comment in high school in my
> first-year French class, even though I had only studied the language
> over the summer out of a little paperback book. I wonder if these
> instructors had ever heard the real thing anywhere.
We moved from Oakland to Calgary when our daughter was halfway through
Junior High. Back in Oakland, her French teacher was a German women who
spoke french fluently and with no perceptible accent. In Calgary, the
wrestling teacher also taught French. Not that he spoke the language
though. For about two and a half years after we moved she effectively
learned nothing.
> In the United States, instructors tend to be so incompetent in the
> spoken languages they teach that anyone other than a rank beginner
> sounds native to them. I got the same comment in high school in my
> first-year French class, even though I had only studied the language
> over the summer out of a little paperback book. I wonder if these
> instructors had ever heard the real thing anywhere.
We moved from Oakland to Calgary when our daughter was halfway through
Junior High. Back in Oakland, her French teacher was a German women who
spoke french fluently and with no perceptible accent. In Calgary, the
wrestling teacher also taught French. Not that he spoke the language
though. For about two and a half years after we moved she effectively
learned nothing.
Aug 14th 2004, 5:10 pm
#28
Guest
Posts: n/a
Re: Let's talk about langages (Advice/Help)
Probably you saw this more right after WWII with the many dp's as they
were called (displaced persons). I know of several cases where having
to cross war torn Europe as a dp meant people learned, say, Polish,
German, and English in addition to their native Ukrainian and Russian.
The people I knew could speak and carry on conversations in these
languages, but had a very difficult time reading or writing them as they
had almost no spelling knowledge of German, English or Polish.
And I will argue it takes more time than that. I only considered myself
reasonably passable in technical German after 4 years of study, not
really fluent. Switching from, say, an article on biology to an article
on physics, was quite a reminder on how difficult it is to become
fluent.
--
wf.
Mxsmanic wrote:
>
> There are true cases of people who speak and understand but remain
> illiterate, but they are rare.
It takes about two years of nearly full-time
> study to go from zero to a reasonable level of fluency in a foreign
> language of the same family as your own (e.g., another European
> language).
were called (displaced persons). I know of several cases where having
to cross war torn Europe as a dp meant people learned, say, Polish,
German, and English in addition to their native Ukrainian and Russian.
The people I knew could speak and carry on conversations in these
languages, but had a very difficult time reading or writing them as they
had almost no spelling knowledge of German, English or Polish.
And I will argue it takes more time than that. I only considered myself
reasonably passable in technical German after 4 years of study, not
really fluent. Switching from, say, an article on biology to an article
on physics, was quite a reminder on how difficult it is to become
fluent.
--
wf.
Mxsmanic wrote:
>
> There are true cases of people who speak and understand but remain
> illiterate, but they are rare.
It takes about two years of nearly full-time
> study to go from zero to a reasonable level of fluency in a foreign
> language of the same family as your own (e.g., another European
> language).
Aug 14th 2004, 7:40 pm
#29
Guest
Posts: n/a
Re: Let's talk about langages (Advice/Help)
Sun, 15 Aug 2004 09:23:45 +1000: [email protected]: in sci.lang:
>I can't argue with that. Absolutely true!! I only didn't want the
>learner to get discouraged if he was having trouble with tv early
>on... But of course the ultimate challenge is to understand tv/radio
>as that is so much harder than normal conversation.
Strange. I understand all or most of the Portuguese tv news, as long
as it is _not_ normal conversation (street interviews). Of other
normal conversation, I understand most, enough to get by, as long as I
take part in it; but virtually nothing if it's between native
speakers.
So what is "normal conversation"? And how it is easier.
--
Ruud Harmsen - http://rudhar.com
>I can't argue with that. Absolutely true!! I only didn't want the
>learner to get discouraged if he was having trouble with tv early
>on... But of course the ultimate challenge is to understand tv/radio
>as that is so much harder than normal conversation.
Strange. I understand all or most of the Portuguese tv news, as long
as it is _not_ normal conversation (street interviews). Of other
normal conversation, I understand most, enough to get by, as long as I
take part in it; but virtually nothing if it's between native
speakers.
So what is "normal conversation"? And how it is easier.
--
Ruud Harmsen - http://rudhar.com
Aug 14th 2004, 10:05 pm
#30
Guest
Posts: n/a
Re: Let's talk about langages (Advice/Help)
Ruud Harmsen writes:
> So what is "normal conversation"? And how it is easier.
There's no set definition. One can say what it _isn't_, however, and it
certainly is not the kind of "conversation" one encounters in
foreign-language courses.
--
Transpose hotmail and mxsmanic in my e-mail address to reach me directly.
> So what is "normal conversation"? And how it is easier.
There's no set definition. One can say what it _isn't_, however, and it
certainly is not the kind of "conversation" one encounters in
foreign-language courses.
--
Transpose hotmail and mxsmanic in my e-mail address to reach me directly.
