Randee

That's why you shoot first and ask questions afterward.....

Mxsmanic wrote:
    >
    > SAA writes:
    >
    > > I have no problem with the way this person handled the situation. Any
    > > one committing a robbery (taking the property of another by force) has
    > > to expect that the victim might fight back, regardles of whether the
    > > suspect is a child or an adult.
    >
    > What evidence was there of a robbery taking place, with respect to the
    > woman?
    >
    > > If the M.O. for the suspects is to come up with carboard or newspaper
    > > to hide thier illegal actions, and the poster knew it, then his
    > > actions regarding the carboard is appropraite also.
    >
    > Many people who murder others with pistols approach their victims before
    > shooting. Is it acceptable, then, to assume that anyone approaching you
    > may be a murderer with a gun preparing to kill you?
    >
    > --
    > Transpose hotmail and mxsmanic in my e-mail address to reach me directly.

--
wf.
Wayne Flowers
Randee Greenwald
[email protected]

Deirdre Straughan

Jail isn't likely in cases like this. A few years ago an Italian man
was targeted by a gypsy girl in the subway in Milan. He grabbed her by
both arms and shook her so hard both her wrists broke. This was
considered over-the-top brutality (by the media, at least and the girl
got a lot of sympathy in the press, but I don't think he did any time
for it, since she had clearly been trying to rob him. A few months
later there was a tsk-tsk article in the newspaper about how the girl
had gone back to stealing (and been caught) as soon as her wrists
healed.


On Tue, 18 Nov 2003 11:38:44 +0100, Mxsmanic <[email protected]>
wrote:

    >Kyle Ashley writes:
    >> If anyone else has anything CONSTRUCTIVE to add that may enlighten me,
    >> or educate other readers/travelers, it is most appreciated. Thanks!
    >Just because you don't like what you read doesn't mean that it isn't
    >constructive. If you assault people, you can end up in jail; it seems
    >highly constructive to me to point that out to you, in case you might be
    >ignorant of that risk.

Deirdre Straughan

I've never heard of them giving the wallet back. You're right that
that is totally weird.

Another technique travellers should look out for is the persistent
beggar who touches your arm or whatever to get your attention; his
pickpocket partner is working your other side.

Mxsmanic

[email protected] writes:

    > He grabbed her by both arms and shook her so hard
    > both her wrists broke.

Either he was the Incredible Hulk (tm), or she was a very tiny girl.
He'd have to practically whirl her around his head by the wrists to
break them, I should think.

    > A few months later there was a tsk-tsk article in the
    > newspaper about how the girl had gone back to stealing
    > (and been caught) as soon as her wrists healed.

Gypsies are stupid as a general rule, and they don't seem to know how to
earn an honest living. I don't know which is cause and which is effect,
though.

--
Transpose hotmail and mxsmanic in my e-mail address to reach me directly.

St

On 17 Nov 2003 18:45:55 -0800, [email protected] (Kyle Ashley)
wrote:

    >Saturday morning I was walking to St. Maria Maggiore a couple of
    >blocks from the Termini area, and had an old woman with a piece of
    >cardboard come at me. I had been in Rome for a week and had no
    >problems anywhere including the Metro, so I had stuffed my cardholder
    >type wallet and about 60 Euros in the right front pocket of my slacks
    >instead of using my usual money belt. I'm about 6 feet, 180 pounds,
    >was dressed completely in black fashionable clothes, and was walking
    >extremely fast and with a purpose. Definitely not the typical tourist.
    >I've spent a lot of time alone in places like London, NYC, and even
    >Lima Peru, but have never been accosted by anyone.
    >I had read the gypsy stories in advance and saw her act coming, so I
    >was ready to react and thwart any attempts at getting my money. I
    >ripped the cardboard out of her hands and tossed it aside. 2 small
    >children, a boy and a girl, were with her and grabbed both of my arms
    >pleading for money. My left hand was still in my jacket pocket so I
    >quickly rotated my left arm back with a lot of force catching the
    >small boy in the forehead with my elbow. He dropped off and I shook
    >the girl off of my right arm and continued walking. They briefly came
    >back behind me again and I turned and shouted some brutal profanities
    >at them drawing back as if to hit the old woman (more as show of
    >force than really wanting to hurt anyone), and they backed off.
    >I was really shocked at how determined they were since eveything I had
    >read said that they could be repelled with loud, firm language. Even a
    >solid shot to the boy's head hadn't worked. I crossed the street and
    >onto the plaza at the church when I heard a girl calling at me. I
    >turned expecting another beggar but instead saw a girl of about 11 or
    >12 holding my wallet in one hand and reaching for a "tip" in the
    >other.
    >I was totally and completely stunned as I had no indication that
    >anyone had gotten anywhere near my pocket in the incident that
    >probably only lasted about 7-10 seconds. The particular trousers I was
    >wearing are very tight with deep front pockets that are top cut
    >requiring you to enter vertically along the leg as opposed to coming
    >in sideways from the back. I even have trouble getting my wallet out
    >of these pockets when I want to! I never once felt any hands near my
    >pockets and even my jacket was long enough to considerably overlap my
    >pockets adding another layer of cover. In a million years I never
    >thought I could be pickpocketed and not realize it was happening.
    >These people are like magicians.
    >I handed her a single Euro coin with a thank you, but was so freaked
    >out that I didn't realize that not only was she returning my credit
    >cards, bank card, and ID, but also ALL of the cash! The return of the
    >cards alone was worth a fortune to me in terms of all the hassles I
    >would have had to go through. After I realized exactly what had
    >happened, I felt bad for not giving her a much bigger "reward".
    >The weird thing is, who was this kid and how did she end up with my
    >wallet and cash within 60 seconds of the incident with the old woman
    >and kids? I mentioned it to several locals that day, but they all
    >thought it was very bizarre. The more I thought about it, the more I
    >think she must be connected to them in some way. Is this some new
    >"M.O." that they are using to avoid the guilt of being thieves? Steal
    >your wallet and then return it for a "reward"? I would think that
    >they would just run with the cash and toss the useless stuff.
    >I know a lot of Rome pickpocket stories have been discussed on this
    >forum, but I've never heard of one with this outcome. Has anyone else
    >experienced something like this? In any event, I feel extremely lucky
    >to have gotten my stuff back, and had a great time in Rome otherwise.
    >I also thought the Termini area was OK, although I can see how it can
    >scare tourists. I was surprised to find a couple of great food joints
    >within a block of the station.


Turning and walking away is not difficult. Hitting a child seems a
little excessive?

Jenn

In article <[email protected]>,
st <[email protected]> wrote:

    > On 17 Nov 2003 18:45:55 -0800, [email protected] (Kyle Ashley)
    > wrote:
    >
    > >Saturday morning I was walking to St. Maria Maggiore a couple of
    > >blocks from the Termini area, and had an old woman with a piece of
    > >cardboard come at me. I had been in Rome for a week and had no
    > >problems anywhere including the Metro, so I had stuffed my cardholder
    > >type wallet and about 60 Euros in the right front pocket of my slacks
    > >instead of using my usual money belt. I'm about 6 feet, 180 pounds,
    > >was dressed completely in black fashionable clothes, and was walking
    > >extremely fast and with a purpose. Definitely not the typical tourist.
    > >I've spent a lot of time alone in places like London, NYC, and even
    > >Lima Peru, but have never been accosted by anyone.
    > >
    > >I had read the gypsy stories in advance and saw her act coming, so I
    > >was ready to react and thwart any attempts at getting my money. I
    > >ripped the cardboard out of her hands and tossed it aside. 2 small
    > >children, a boy and a girl, were with her and grabbed both of my arms
    > >pleading for money. My left hand was still in my jacket pocket so I
    > >quickly rotated my left arm back with a lot of force catching the
    > >small boy in the forehead with my elbow. He dropped off and I shook
    > >the girl off of my right arm and continued walking. They briefly came
    > >back behind me again and I turned and shouted some brutal profanities
    > >at them drawing back as if to hit the old woman (more as show of
    > >force than really wanting to hurt anyone), and they backed off.
    > >
    > >I was really shocked at how determined they were since eveything I had
    > >read said that they could be repelled with loud, firm language. Even a
    > >solid shot to the boy's head hadn't worked. I crossed the street and
    > >onto the plaza at the church when I heard a girl calling at me. I
    > >turned expecting another beggar but instead saw a girl of about 11 or
    > >12 holding my wallet in one hand and reaching for a "tip" in the
    > >other.
    > >
    > >I was totally and completely stunned as I had no indication that
    > >anyone had gotten anywhere near my pocket in the incident that
    > >probably only lasted about 7-10 seconds. The particular trousers I was
    > >wearing are very tight with deep front pockets that are top cut
    > >requiring you to enter vertically along the leg as opposed to coming
    > >in sideways from the back. I even have trouble getting my wallet out
    > >of these pockets when I want to! I never once felt any hands near my
    > >pockets and even my jacket was long enough to considerably overlap my
    > >pockets adding another layer of cover. In a million years I never
    > >thought I could be pickpocketed and not realize it was happening.
    > >These people are like magicians.
    > >
    > >I handed her a single Euro coin with a thank you, but was so freaked
    > >out that I didn't realize that not only was she returning my credit
    > >cards, bank card, and ID, but also ALL of the cash! The return of the
    > >cards alone was worth a fortune to me in terms of all the hassles I
    > >would have had to go through. After I realized exactly what had
    > >happened, I felt bad for not giving her a much bigger "reward".
    > >
    > >The weird thing is, who was this kid and how did she end up with my
    > >wallet and cash within 60 seconds of the incident with the old woman
    > >and kids? I mentioned it to several locals that day, but they all
    > >thought it was very bizarre. The more I thought about it, the more I
    > >think she must be connected to them in some way. Is this some new
    > >"M.O." that they are using to avoid the guilt of being thieves? Steal
    > >your wallet and then return it for a "reward"? I would think that
    > >they would just run with the cash and toss the useless stuff.
    > >
    > >I know a lot of Rome pickpocket stories have been discussed on this
    > >forum, but I've never heard of one with this outcome. Has anyone else
    > >experienced something like this? In any event, I feel extremely lucky
    > >to have gotten my stuff back, and had a great time in Rome otherwise.
    > >I also thought the Termini area was OK, although I can see how it can
    > >scare tourists. I was surprised to find a couple of great food joints
    > >within a block of the station.
    >
    >
    > Turning and walking away is not difficult. Hitting a child seems a
    > little excessive?
    >
    >

perhaps you have never had several children literally climb all over you
and grab onto your arms an legs as they try to rob you -- it is not
possible to extricate yourself without shoving them away -- been there,
done that

Judith Umbria

"Jenn" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...

    > perhaps you have never had several children literally climb all over you
    > and grab onto your arms an legs as they try to rob you -- it is not
    > possible to extricate yourself without shoving them away -- been there,
    > done that

While they haven't been that aggressive outside my grocery here, they are
certainly insistent. I greet them with "Stay far away from me!" in Italian,
and they look so puzzled, as if we haven't been through this 100 times
before. They want the Euro in my shopping cart and have a plastic tool to
extract it. Chump change? Sure, but if it happens once or twice a week
every week, it makes grocery shopping a different proposition, and they hang
outside the store I use. My protest came after when I refused, they
pretended to be stealing my watch and took the coin while I was protecting
my watch. There's no reason for this here. No one is starving, there's
school for these kids, and they don't get the money anyway. All the begging
moms and kids are herded into a minivan by a man who takes the money. The
social services recently took the kids away from the parents in an effort to
save the kids, but the courts gave them back.
The boy is one of the most charismatic and clever boys ever, and it is
painful to see him get better at robbing every year.

Miguel Cruz

Jenn <[email protected]> wrote:
    > perhaps you have never had several children literally climb all over you
    > and grab onto your arms an legs as they try to rob you -- it is not
    > possible to extricate yourself without shoving them away -- been there,
    > done that

What works best is to spin around rapidly. Nobody can hang on then. Works
with monkeys too.

miguel
--
See the world from your web browser: http://travel.u.nu/

Ptravel

"Miguel Cruz" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
    > Jenn <[email protected]> wrote:
    > > perhaps you have never had several children literally climb all over you
    > > and grab onto your arms an legs as they try to rob you -- it is not
    > > possible to extricate yourself without shoving them away -- been there,
    > > done that
    > What works best is to spin around rapidly. Nobody can hang on then. Works
    > with monkeys too.

Not a determined chimpanzee. I speak with the voice of experience.

    > miguel
    > --
    > See the world from your web browser: http://travel.u.nu/

Padraig Breathnach

"PTRAVEL" <[email protected]> wrote:
    >"Miguel Cruz" <[email protected]> wrote in message
    >news:[email protected]...

    >> What works best is to spin around rapidly. Nobody can hang on then. Works
    >> with monkeys too.
    >Not a determined chimpanzee. I speak with the voice of experience.
You can't say that much, and then stop.

Well, I suppose you can, but it's unkind. We are agog.

--
PB
The return address has been MUNGED

Stephen Ellenson

"st" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
    > On 17 Nov 2003 18:45:55 -0800, [email protected] (Kyle Ashley)
    > wrote:
    > >Saturday morning I was walking to St. Maria Maggiore a couple of
    > >blocks from the Termini area, and had an old woman with a piece of
    > >cardboard come at me. I had been in Rome for a week and had no
    > >problems anywhere including the Metro, so I had stuffed my cardholder
    > >type wallet and about 60 Euros in the right front pocket of my slacks
    > >instead of using my usual money belt. I'm about 6 feet, 180 pounds,
    > >was dressed completely in black fashionable clothes, and was walking
    > >extremely fast and with a purpose. Definitely not the typical tourist.
    > >I've spent a lot of time alone in places like London, NYC, and even
    > >Lima Peru, but have never been accosted by anyone.
    > >
    > >I had read the gypsy stories in advance and saw her act coming, so I
    > >was ready to react and thwart any attempts at getting my money. I
    > >ripped the cardboard out of her hands and tossed it aside. 2 small
    > >children, a boy and a girl, were with her and grabbed both of my arms
    > >pleading for money. My left hand was still in my jacket pocket so I
    > >quickly rotated my left arm back with a lot of force catching the
    > >small boy in the forehead with my elbow. He dropped off and I shook
    > >the girl off of my right arm and continued walking. They briefly came
    > >back behind me again and I turned and shouted some brutal profanities
    > >at them drawing back as if to hit the old woman (more as show of
    > >force than really wanting to hurt anyone), and they backed off.
    > >
    > >I was really shocked at how determined they were since eveything I had
    > >read said that they could be repelled with loud, firm language. Even a
    > >solid shot to the boy's head hadn't worked. I crossed the street and
    > >onto the plaza at the church when I heard a girl calling at me. I
    > >turned expecting another beggar but instead saw a girl of about 11 or
    > >12 holding my wallet in one hand and reaching for a "tip" in the
    > >other.
    > >
    > >I was totally and completely stunned as I had no indication that
    > >anyone had gotten anywhere near my pocket in the incident that
    > >probably only lasted about 7-10 seconds. The particular trousers I was
    > >wearing are very tight with deep front pockets that are top cut
    > >requiring you to enter vertically along the leg as opposed to coming
    > >in sideways from the back. I even have trouble getting my wallet out
    > >of these pockets when I want to! I never once felt any hands near my
    > >pockets and even my jacket was long enough to considerably overlap my
    > >pockets adding another layer of cover. In a million years I never
    > >thought I could be pickpocketed and not realize it was happening.
    > >These people are like magicians.
    > >
    > >I handed her a single Euro coin with a thank you, but was so freaked
    > >out that I didn't realize that not only was she returning my credit
    > >cards, bank card, and ID, but also ALL of the cash! The return of the
    > >cards alone was worth a fortune to me in terms of all the hassles I
    > >would have had to go through. After I realized exactly what had
    > >happened, I felt bad for not giving her a much bigger "reward".
    > >
    > >The weird thing is, who was this kid and how did she end up with my
    > >wallet and cash within 60 seconds of the incident with the old woman
    > >and kids? I mentioned it to several locals that day, but they all
    > >thought it was very bizarre. The more I thought about it, the more I
    > >think she must be connected to them in some way. Is this some new
    > >"M.O." that they are using to avoid the guilt of being thieves? Steal
    > >your wallet and then return it for a "reward"? I would think that
    > >they would just run with the cash and toss the useless stuff.
    > >
    > >I know a lot of Rome pickpocket stories have been discussed on this
    > >forum, but I've never heard of one with this outcome. Has anyone else
    > >experienced something like this? In any event, I feel extremely lucky
    > >to have gotten my stuff back, and had a great time in Rome otherwise.
    > >I also thought the Termini area was OK, although I can see how it can
    > >scare tourists. I was surprised to find a couple of great food joints
    > >within a block of the station.
    > Turning and walking away is not difficult. Hitting a child seems a
    > little excessive?

We had more pickpocket attempts in Paris than in Rome or Florence, but of
course, everyone's experience will vary. We were approached by more beggers
in Italy but never in a threatening manner. We were also approached by the
tout taxi driver outside Termini offering "special tourist rate". A note to
tourists in Rome, ignore the tout and walk to the end of the official taxi
queue. And Rome has more visible cops per square inch than any european city
I've been to. I felt quite safe in Italy as a tourist (and Italian cops are
the most stylishly dressed cops on the planet).

Ptravel

"Padraig Breathnach" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news[email protected]...
    > "PTRAVEL" <[email protected]> wrote:
    > >
    > >"Miguel Cruz" <[email protected]> wrote in message
    > >news:[email protected]...
    > >> What works best is to spin around rapidly. Nobody can hang on then.
Works
    > >> with monkeys too.
    > >
    > >Not a determined chimpanzee. I speak with the voice of experience.
    > >
    > You can't say that much, and then stop.
    > Well, I suppose you can, but it's unkind. We are agog.

When I was a child, a chimpanzee escaped from a private zoo at a camp I was
attending. Mistaking my ankle for, I think, a water fountain, the chimp
clamped down and wouldn't let go. My parents spun me around by my arms in
an effort to dislodge it -- there was me, holding on to my father, with the
chimp holding on to me. It must have looked like something out of a Warner
Brothers cartoon. Finally, a few well-placed kicks to the head on my part
(the chimp's head, not mine) persuaded it to let go. It was an equally
upsetting experience for all concerned, including the chimp.


    > --
    > PB
    > The return address has been MUNGED

Padraig Breathnach

"PTRAVEL" <[email protected]> wrote:

    >"Padraig Breathnach" <[email protected]> wrote in message
    >news[email protected]...
    >> "PTRAVEL" <[email protected]> wrote:
    >> >
    >> >"Miguel Cruz" <[email protected]> wrote in message
    >> >news:[email protected]...
    >> >> What works best is to spin around rapidly. Nobody can hang on then.
    >Works
    >> >> with monkeys too.
    >> >
    >> >Not a determined chimpanzee. I speak with the voice of experience.
    >> >
    >> You can't say that much, and then stop.
    >> Well, I suppose you can, but it's unkind. We are agog.
    >When I was a child, a chimpanzee escaped from a private zoo at a camp I was
    >attending. Mistaking my ankle for, I think, a water fountain, the chimp
    >clamped down and wouldn't let go. My parents spun me around by my arms in
    >an effort to dislodge it -- there was me, holding on to my father, with the
    >chimp holding on to me. It must have looked like something out of a Warner
    >Brothers cartoon. Finally, a few well-placed kicks to the head on my part
    >(the chimp's head, not mine) persuaded it to let go. It was an equally
    >upsetting experience for all concerned, including the chimp.
I'm glad that you acknowledge the chimp's misfortune. I suspect that
you were rather lucky that the animal's response to being kicked was
to let go. Chimps are very powerful.

It sure beats the time that a giraffe licked me.

--
PB
The return address has been MUNGED

S Viemeister

Padraig Breathnach wrote:
    >
    > It sure beats the time that a giraffe licked me.
    >

Inquiring minds want to know......

Gregory Morrow

Mxsmanic wrote:


    > Dan Stephenson writes:
    >
    > > "I my God! that evil man over there ripped up my piece of trash!!"
    >
    > A friend of mine, an American, was walking through Iran once and saw a
    > nice round rock on the street, and so he followed a natural impulse to
    > kick it. Only after he kicked it did he notice the Iranian kneeling on
    > the ground in front of where the rock had been. While the Iranian was
    > still staring blankly in stunned silence at the spot where his sacred
    > rock had been, my friend realized what he had done and ran away as
    > quickly as he could. And yet it was just a rock.


It's no wonder that Iran is such an impoverished and backwards place....

--
Best
Greg