Italian versus Spanish
Sep 22nd 2006, 6:07 am
#46
Guest
Posts: n/a
Re: Italian versus Spanish
Giovanni Drogo a �crit :
> On Fri, 22 Sep 2006, didier Meurgues wrote:
> > I didn't put "qu" because it is like french, english or latin and so I
> > didn't found it special. You pronounce the U in "guarda civil" but I
> > did indeed forgot the n with tilde.
> Is it ? I though that spanish que qui was like italian che chi, i.e.
> /ke/ /ki/, not italian (or english or latin) que which is /kwe/.
> Are Queretaro and Quito not pronounced /keretaro/ and /kito? ?
Correct. I thought first of the word "picturesque" instead of
"question"... and I thought that quanta was prononced Kanta. So skip
english (partly) and latin but keep french where qu = K like in
Spanish.
> The main mess between different european languages concerns the usage of
> letter "c".
> > Yes there is a logic. I wanted essentially to show the differences
> > between the additional vowels like "cia" and "ce", because of the
> > sweetening "i" you have to add, for example
read softening "i" instead of sweetening...!!
> In almost all languages which use a phonetic writing and not an
> etimologic writing there is a rule. Or a couple or rules, or a rule with
> two sub-rules.
> In italian c and g are hard (/k/ /g/) before hard vowels (a o u) and
> soft (/tS/ /dZ/) before soft vowels (e i). A mute h (ch gh) is used to
> make them hard, and a MUTE i (ci gi) is used to make them soft.
> Seems to me not unlike e.g. in russian where n and l can be hard or soft
> (like italian gn gl or spanish n-tilde ll). They are hard when terminal,
> or when followed by a o u, soft when followed by i e. To make them soft
> russians use special letters : ja instead of a, e with dieresis instead
> of o and ju instead of u, and a special soft sign when terminal. To make
> them hard they'd potentially use a special hard sign (that almost fell
> out of use after 1917).
> > > > scia, scio, sciu, sce, sci.
> > >
> > > No idea of how the /S/ sound is written in spanish, but the sound is
> > > subject of equivalent graphical conventions in many languages, e.g. sh
> > > in English or sch in German.
> >
> > S is like in french or english : Casa kaSa (house)
> No sorry, you are obviously not aware of the graphical convention I'm
> using. The slashes // mark the notation of the International Phonetic
> Alphabet rendered in plain ASCII, so called Kirstenbaum's convention.
> http://www.hpl.hp.com/personal/Evan_Kirshenbaum/IPA/
> /S/ indicates the sound rendered by italian sc+i, or english sh, or
> german sch (French ch ?)
I didn't know these phonetic conventions. Yes "sci" is "CHi" in french
"shi" in english.
S is as well pronounced Z (between 2 vowels) in french : case = kaZ...
> > > (no -i, and ends in -e at singular, latin III declination !)
> >
> > Thanks. I wasn't even dreaming to make only one.. fault (which I even
> > showed with a "?" mark) : "scintillante" instead of "scintillanto"...
> > Do you mean that it is invariable at plural ?
> NO. Scintillante is a participle present of verb "scintillare". All
> participle present of any verb follow the declination derived from the
> latin III declination, i.e. singular in -e, plural in -i, invariable
> between masculine and feminine.
So the plural is "scintillanti", as usual. I thought that you said that
it was invariable because you said "no -i" and I used "i" only in my
plural translation.
didier Meurgues
> --
> ----------------------------------------------------------------------
> [email protected] is a newsreading account used by more persons to
> avoid unwanted spam. Any mail returning to this address will be rejected.
> Users can disclose their e-mail address in the article if they wish so.
> On Fri, 22 Sep 2006, didier Meurgues wrote:
> > I didn't put "qu" because it is like french, english or latin and so I
> > didn't found it special. You pronounce the U in "guarda civil" but I
> > did indeed forgot the n with tilde.
> Is it ? I though that spanish que qui was like italian che chi, i.e.
> /ke/ /ki/, not italian (or english or latin) que which is /kwe/.
> Are Queretaro and Quito not pronounced /keretaro/ and /kito? ?
Correct. I thought first of the word "picturesque" instead of
"question"... and I thought that quanta was prononced Kanta. So skip
english (partly) and latin but keep french where qu = K like in
Spanish.
> The main mess between different european languages concerns the usage of
> letter "c".
> > Yes there is a logic. I wanted essentially to show the differences
> > between the additional vowels like "cia" and "ce", because of the
> > sweetening "i" you have to add, for example
read softening "i" instead of sweetening...!!
> In almost all languages which use a phonetic writing and not an
> etimologic writing there is a rule. Or a couple or rules, or a rule with
> two sub-rules.
> In italian c and g are hard (/k/ /g/) before hard vowels (a o u) and
> soft (/tS/ /dZ/) before soft vowels (e i). A mute h (ch gh) is used to
> make them hard, and a MUTE i (ci gi) is used to make them soft.
> Seems to me not unlike e.g. in russian where n and l can be hard or soft
> (like italian gn gl or spanish n-tilde ll). They are hard when terminal,
> or when followed by a o u, soft when followed by i e. To make them soft
> russians use special letters : ja instead of a, e with dieresis instead
> of o and ju instead of u, and a special soft sign when terminal. To make
> them hard they'd potentially use a special hard sign (that almost fell
> out of use after 1917).
> > > > scia, scio, sciu, sce, sci.
> > >
> > > No idea of how the /S/ sound is written in spanish, but the sound is
> > > subject of equivalent graphical conventions in many languages, e.g. sh
> > > in English or sch in German.
> >
> > S is like in french or english : Casa kaSa (house)
> No sorry, you are obviously not aware of the graphical convention I'm
> using. The slashes // mark the notation of the International Phonetic
> Alphabet rendered in plain ASCII, so called Kirstenbaum's convention.
> http://www.hpl.hp.com/personal/Evan_Kirshenbaum/IPA/
> /S/ indicates the sound rendered by italian sc+i, or english sh, or
> german sch (French ch ?)
I didn't know these phonetic conventions. Yes "sci" is "CHi" in french
"shi" in english.
S is as well pronounced Z (between 2 vowels) in french : case = kaZ...
> > > (no -i, and ends in -e at singular, latin III declination !)
> >
> > Thanks. I wasn't even dreaming to make only one.. fault (which I even
> > showed with a "?" mark) : "scintillante" instead of "scintillanto"...
> > Do you mean that it is invariable at plural ?
> NO. Scintillante is a participle present of verb "scintillare". All
> participle present of any verb follow the declination derived from the
> latin III declination, i.e. singular in -e, plural in -i, invariable
> between masculine and feminine.
So the plural is "scintillanti", as usual. I thought that you said that
it was invariable because you said "no -i" and I used "i" only in my
plural translation.
didier Meurgues
> --
> ----------------------------------------------------------------------
> [email protected] is a newsreading account used by more persons to
> avoid unwanted spam. Any mail returning to this address will be rejected.
> Users can disclose their e-mail address in the article if they wish so.
Sep 29th 2006, 1:57 am
#47
Guest
Posts: n/a
Re: Italian versus Spanish
In article <[email protected] .com>,
[email protected] (Jordi) wrote:
> *From:* "Jordi" <[email protected]>
> *Date:* 21 Sep 2006 04:13:46 -0700
>
>
> vermillion wrote:
> > > Anyway, there will be quite a substantial difference between the
> > > Spanish learnt in the US and the one the OP will find in Europe
> >
> > Aren't the only differences:
> > - Spaniards use a "th" sound but Latin Americans use an 's' sound
> > for "ci" and "ce",
> > - Spaniards use a "th" sound but Latin Americans use an 's' sound
> > for 'z',
> > - Spaniards use a "ll" sound but Latin Americans use an 'y' sound
> > for "ll", and
> > - Spaniards use a "x" sound but Latin Americans use an 'j' sound
> > for 'x' as in Mexico?
>
> I didn't think this topic was still alive!
>
> Well, there are many South American dialects, and the differences among
> them can be enormous (take Porte�o, Venezuelan and Puerto Rican, the
> differences can be as big between them as to their across the pond
> counterpart).
>
> The difference in pronunciation is one (and there are also differences
> among South America, take Porte�o, for example)
Quite - the Porteno pronunciation of 'll' really threw me!
[email protected] (Jordi) wrote:
> *From:* "Jordi" <[email protected]>
> *Date:* 21 Sep 2006 04:13:46 -0700
>
>
> vermillion wrote:
> > > Anyway, there will be quite a substantial difference between the
> > > Spanish learnt in the US and the one the OP will find in Europe
> >
> > Aren't the only differences:
> > - Spaniards use a "th" sound but Latin Americans use an 's' sound
> > for "ci" and "ce",
> > - Spaniards use a "th" sound but Latin Americans use an 's' sound
> > for 'z',
> > - Spaniards use a "ll" sound but Latin Americans use an 'y' sound
> > for "ll", and
> > - Spaniards use a "x" sound but Latin Americans use an 'j' sound
> > for 'x' as in Mexico?
>
> I didn't think this topic was still alive!
>
> Well, there are many South American dialects, and the differences among
> them can be enormous (take Porte�o, Venezuelan and Puerto Rican, the
> differences can be as big between them as to their across the pond
> counterpart).
>
> The difference in pronunciation is one (and there are also differences
> among South America, take Porte�o, for example)
Quite - the Porteno pronunciation of 'll' really threw me!
Oct 8th 2006, 5:44 am
#48
Guest
Posts: n/a
Re: Italian versus castillian
forget castillian, (the word "spanish" have fascist implications)
learn CATALONIAN! :-) whit CATALONIAN you can understand also, catalan of italy
(Alger, Sardenya) castillian, italian, portuguese, occitan, french patois,
galego... a mine trobe!
a reveure des Catalunya!
Biel
>On Fri, 15 Sep 2006 10:47:59 +0200, B Vaughan<[email protected]> wrote:
>>I also agree with someone else who said that it would depend on where
>>you want to do most of your travelling. A knowledge of either language
>>will help you a lot with reading signs, train schedules, and menus in
>>the other language. Just remember that "aceto" is vinegar in Italian,
>>while "aceite" is oil in Spanish!
>Here's a short list to learn:
>http://www.syllabos.com/it/falsiamici/faspait-it.html
>--
>---
>DFM - http://www.deepfriedmars.com
>---
learn CATALONIAN! :-) whit CATALONIAN you can understand also, catalan of italy
(Alger, Sardenya) castillian, italian, portuguese, occitan, french patois,
galego... a mine trobe!
a reveure des Catalunya!
Biel
>On Fri, 15 Sep 2006 10:47:59 +0200, B Vaughan<[email protected]> wrote:
>>I also agree with someone else who said that it would depend on where
>>you want to do most of your travelling. A knowledge of either language
>>will help you a lot with reading signs, train schedules, and menus in
>>the other language. Just remember that "aceto" is vinegar in Italian,
>>while "aceite" is oil in Spanish!
>Here's a short list to learn:
>http://www.syllabos.com/it/falsiamici/faspait-it.html
>--
>---
>DFM - http://www.deepfriedmars.com
>---
Oct 8th 2006, 5:48 am
#49
Guest
Posts: n/a
Re: Italian versus castillian
"Biel" <[email protected]> kirjoitti
viestiss�:[email protected] om...
> forget castillian, (the word "spanish" have fascist implications)
Only in the minds of idiots.
viestiss�:[email protected] om...
> forget castillian, (the word "spanish" have fascist implications)
Only in the minds of idiots.
