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How is this itinerary for first trip to Europe

How is this itinerary for first trip to Europe

Old Jan 22nd 2007, 3:10 pm
  #61  
Calif Bill
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Default Re: How is this itinerary for first trip to Europe

"Runge" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
>A GPS I tell you !!
>
> "Calif Bill" <[email protected]> a écrit dans le message de news:
> %[email protected]. net...
>>
>> "Joe Pessarra" <[email protected]> wrote in message
>> news:[email protected]...
>>>
>>> "Otter" <[email protected]> wrote in message
>>> news:[email protected]...
>>>> In news[email protected],
>>>> Mike <[email protected]> typed:
>>>> > My wife and I are planning a trip to Europe this Spring. I've never
>>>> > been
>>>> > to Europe before...we plan on about 2 weeks (~ 15 nights). Both of
>>>> > us are English-only speakers.
>>>> >
>>>> > Our current plan:
>>>> >
>>>> > Fly to London, 4 nights in London (maybe 1 in Bath?)
>>>> > Rail to Paris, 4 nights in Paris
>>>> > Rail to Koeln, _rent_ a car and spend 7 days/nights exploring
>>>> > Germany
>>>> > (Rhine River Valley, Romantic Road, Rothenburg, Munich, etc.)
>>>> > Fly out of Munich
>>>> >
>>>> > I'm a little skittish about renting a car in a foreign country. I
>>>> > know
>>>> > Europe's rail system is supposed to be fantastic, but we like
>>>> > exploring
>>>> > and enjoy checking out smaller towns and scenic countryside. Any
>>>> > thoughts on this?
>>>>
>>>> A car does give you more freedom for doing those things. But there is a
>>>> downside, including finding both the pickup and dropoff points, getting
>>>> fuel, parking, the unknown roads, the unknown drivers, etc. In some
>>>> ways,
>>>> it's a tradeoff of freedom for anxiety.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>
>>> Otter is right, but, my wife and I have made numerous (16) trips to
>>> Europe,
>>> taking the train on our first two visits, but renting an auto on all the
>>> others. Maybe we have just been lucky, but having a car really gives
>>> you
>>> the freedom to go many places, taking the country roads, and seeing
>>> things
>>> you would not see on the train. We like especially to go and stay in
>>> one
>>> place, making day trips out to the nearby towns. Having one or two of
>>> these
>>> base places to drive from makes it nice.
>>>
>>> Have driven in England, Ireland, Germany, France, Switzerland, Austria,
>>> and
>>> the Czech Republic, among others.
>>>
>>> At 75, I am not sure I will be able to rent an auto next trip, but we
>>> will
>>> see.
>>>
>>> Have a good time on your trip.
>>>
>>> Joe in Texas
>>>
>>>
>>
>> I get reasonable rentals from Avis as I am still a corporate customer to
>> them and I still use mostly public transport. I will rent a car for a
>> couple of days if I think I want to visit the smaller towns around a base
>> town. But normally I use trains and the bus. Lets me see more than if I
>> am the driver and saves the hassles of parking and navigation. You need
>> a wife who is good with a map and navigating as Europe is road signage
>> challenged. They will have signs to the next town, not a distant town and
>> most Euopeans must have the eyes of an eagle as the signs are not very
>> big.
>>
>
>

Yup, pay attention to the GPS as you bash another vehicle.
 
Old Jan 22nd 2007, 5:50 pm
  #62  
justforpostings
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Default Re: How is this itinerary for first trip to Europe

Bruce Bretschneider schrieb:

< The Reid wrote:
< > On Mon, 22 Jan 2007 04:17:49 GMT, Mike <[email protected]> wrote:

< >>I'm a little skittish about renting a car in a foreign country. I
know
< >>Europe's rail system is supposed to be fantastic, but we like
exploring
< >>and enjoy checking out smaller towns and scenic countryside. Any
thoughts on this?

< German drivers are not "pretty disciplined". They are EXTREMELY
> DISCIPLINED as are most of the people in Germany. The driver on the
> right has the right of way and that includes on the on ramp (einfahrt)
> to the autobahn. I've seen them wait for a don't walk light to change
> even when there were absolutely no cars in sight. It may be that the
> polizei give tickets freely, but not even they were in sight.

Basic rule is "right has right of way" on intersections - but not
when entering a highway!

Below a quote from ADAC, comparable to Automotive Assocation
in Germany - see "Einfahrten":

Fahren auf der Autobahn
ADAC-Tipps f�r ein entspanntes Miteinander

Nicht jede denkbare Verkehrssituation ist in der
Stra�enverkehrsordnung (StVO) geregelt. Manchmal verlangt der
Gesetzgeber von den Autofahrern, dass sie sich partnerschaftlich
untereinander verst�ndigen. Das gilt auch beim Spurwechsel auf der
Autobahn. Der ADAC hat die wichtigsten Tipps zum Wechseln der
Fahrstreifen zusammengestellt.

Dreispurige Autobahn. Immer wieder passiert es, dass zwei Fahrer
gleichzeitig auf die Mittelspur wechseln wollen. Einer von der rechten
Spur, der andere von der �berholspur aus. Hier hat ein Fahrzeug nur
dann ein Vorfahrtsrecht, wenn es einen deutlichen Vorsprung hat. Da
dies bei einem Unfall meist schwer zu beweisen ist, kommt es in der
Regel zu einer Teilung der Unfallkosten. Im Zweifel sollten sich die
Autofahrer deshalb hier mit Handzeichen verst�ndigen.

Ausfahrt/Einfahrt. H�ufig wird die Einf�delspur von
Autobahnauffahrten auch von den ausfahrenden Fahrzeugen mitbenutzt.
Auch in diesem Fall gibt es keine klare Vorfahrtsregelung. Sinnvoll
kann es hier sein, dem Einfahrenden den Vortritt zu lassen. Dieser kann
dann quasi im Schutz des langsamer werdenden Ausfahrenden gefahrlos auf
die Autobahn auffahren.

Einfahrten. In diesem Fall gibt es in der StVO eine klare Regelung: Der
flie�ende Verkehr hat Vorfahrt. Wer sich einf�deln m�chte, darf dies
nur bei einer ausreichend gro�en L�cke tun. Viele Autofahrer wechseln
- oft aus �bertriebener H�flichkeit - spontan auf die
�berholspur, um anderen das Einf�deln zu erleichtern. Dies sollte man
keinesfalls tun, wenn sich auf der �berholspur bereits ein anderes
Fahrzeug mit hoher Geschwindigkeit n�hert. Gef�hrlich ist es auch,
auf der rechten Spur hart zu bremsen, um einem anderen das Einf�deln
zu erleichtern. Kommt es dadurch zu einem Auffahrtsunfall, haftet der
"H�flichkeitsbremser", denn niemand braucht damit zu rechnen, dass vor
ihm einer ohne Not "in die Eisen" steigt. Eine besondere Unsitte ist
es, gleich nach dem Einfahren auf die �berholspur zu wechseln. Dadurch
werden fast immer schnellere Fahrzeuge behindert und es kommt zu
gef�hrlichen Situationen und zu unn�tigen Staus.
Generell sollte man laut ADAC bei jedem Spurwechsel daran denken, dass
es nicht gen�gt, einfach den Blinker zu setzen und darauf zu
vertrauen, dass die anderen schon aufpassen werden. Der Blick in den
R�ckspiegel oder - oder besser - ein zus�tzlicher kurzer Blick
�ber die Schulter hilft Unf�lle und �rger zu vermeiden
 
Old Jan 22nd 2007, 7:59 pm
  #63  
-Mark Hewitt
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Default Re: How is this itinerary for first trip to Europe

"David Horne, _the_ chancellor (*)" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:1hscofd.1btr47pi6fvnvN%[email protected]...
>
> You can get to plenty non-city places by train- you bring up
> particularly inaccessible places, but there are others easier to get to,
> and lots of people _drive_ to them, despite them being accessible by
> train or other PT.

I would think in a foreign country where you don't speak the language then
driving to where you need to go (especially with sat nav) is going to be
much easier than trying to figure out the train system.
 
Old Jan 22nd 2007, 8:01 pm
  #64  
-Mark Hewitt
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Default Re: How is this itinerary for first trip to Europe

"David Horne, _the_ chancellor (*)" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:1hsdajr.1ki9fvy7n1gq0N%>

> Where do most people go in the Lake District? Do they go to that place
> in the middle of nowhere that you go to (very nice by the sound of it)
> or do they go to Windermere or Ambleside, and spend a lot of time in the
> summer driving quite slowly inbetween.

Personally I go to Keswick and then enjoy driving up in the hills.
Without a car I'm stuck to going to Windermere, and even then the train
service sucks.
 
Old Jan 22nd 2007, 8:13 pm
  #65  
David Horne
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Default Re: How is this itinerary for first trip to Europe

Mark Hewitt <[email protected]> wrote:

> "David Horne, _the_ chancellor (*)" <[email protected]> wrote in message
> news:1hscofd.1btr47pi6fvnvN%[email protected]...
> >
> > You can get to plenty non-city places by train- you bring up
> > particularly inaccessible places, but there are others easier to get to,
> > and lots of people _drive_ to them, despite them being accessible by
> > train or other PT.
>
> I would think in a foreign country where you don't speak the language then
> driving to where you need to go (especially with sat nav) is going to be
> much easier than trying to figure out the train system.

If you have online access, it's very easy to figure out the German
system. I don't think I've ever been in a country where it was
particularly difficult.

--
(*) ... of the royal duchy of city south and deansgate
David Horne- http://www.davidhorne.net
(don't email yahoo address) usenet (at) davidhorne (dot) co (dot) uk
 
Old Jan 22nd 2007, 8:13 pm
  #66  
David Horne
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Default Re: How is this itinerary for first trip to Europe

Mark Hewitt <[email protected]> wrote:

> "David Horne, _the_ chancellor (*)" <[email protected]> wrote in message
> news:1hsdajr.1ki9fvy7n1gq0N%>
>
> > Where do most people go in the Lake District? Do they go to that place
> > in the middle of nowhere that you go to (very nice by the sound of it)
> > or do they go to Windermere or Ambleside, and spend a lot of time in the
> > summer driving quite slowly inbetween.
>
> Personally I go to Keswick and then enjoy driving up in the hills.
> Without a car I'm stuck to going to Windermere, and even then the train
> service sucks.

Reid goes to remote places too, yet most people _with_ cars seem to be
stuck going to Windermere too- which is my point. It's certainly not
packed with people just arriving by train. The train service is fine.
Maybe not enough train cars on weekends though- so it gets busy.

--
(*) ... of the royal duchy of city south and deansgate
David Horne- http://www.davidhorne.net
(don't email yahoo address) usenet (at) davidhorne (dot) co (dot) uk
 
Old Jan 22nd 2007, 8:18 pm
  #67  
kurkku
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Default Re: How is this itinerary for first trip to Europe

"Mark Hewitt" <[email protected]> kirjoitti
viestiss�:[email protected]...
>
> "David Horne, _the_ chancellor (*)" <[email protected]> wrote in message
> news:1hscofd.1btr47pi6fvnvN%[email protected]...
>>
>> You can get to plenty non-city places by train- you bring up
>> particularly inaccessible places, but there are others easier to get to,
>> and lots of people _drive_ to them, despite them being accessible by
>> train or other PT.
>
> I would think in a foreign country where you don't speak the language then
> driving to where you need to go (especially with sat nav) is going to be
> much easier than trying to figure out the train system.
>
Train system ought to be very easy to use in most of Europe. Actually Europe
is devided to two sets:

1. interesting places which are not easily accessible by public
transportation
2. interesting places which are easily accessible by public transportation

both sets are "indefinite" relative to any length of human lifetime.
Therefore it is easy to sketch a holiday travel route which is ridden from
the start to the end exclusively by public transportation.
 
Old Jan 22nd 2007, 8:34 pm
  #68  
The Reid
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Default Re: How is this itinerary for first trip to Europe

On Tue, 23 Jan 2007 00:25:22 +0100, [email protected] (David Horne,
_the_ chancellor (*)) wrote:

>> >They certainly give the impression they are.

>> How would you know? :-)

>Good point, but I did at one time in the distant past have a car.

>> >> I've done the Rhine Valley many times with and without a car. With a car
>> >> is best, even if eventually you want to walk. I visited more places in a
>> >> year with a car, than I had visited in the previous seven years using
>> >> public transport.
>> >
>> >For me, visiting more places isn't necessarily the point.

getting to places is exactly why people use cars.

>I never find it limiting, because I work around it. I note that HH's
>good post is very do-able by public transport- indeed, we did almost the
>same trip a while back.

walking is indeed the best way for shorter distances, its the best for
longer ones too, but a minority have the fitness and time to do it
that way.
--
Mike Reid
UK walking, food, photos "http://www.fellwalk.co.uk" <-- you can email us@ this site
Spain walking, food, tourism "http://www.fell-walker.co.uk"
Beginners UK flight sim addons "http://www.lawn-mower-man.co.uk"
 
Old Jan 22nd 2007, 8:34 pm
  #69  
The Reid
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Default Re: How is this itinerary for first trip to Europe

On Mon, 22 Jan 2007 17:50:32 +0000, The Reid <[email protected]>
wrote:

>you could use it as a boat, no, that's a base.

bass, as in double
--
Mike Reid
UK walking, food, photos "http://www.fellwalk.co.uk" <-- you can email us@ this site
Spain walking, food, tourism "http://www.fell-walker.co.uk"
Beginners UK flight sim addons "http://www.lawn-mower-man.co.uk"
 
Old Jan 22nd 2007, 8:34 pm
  #70  
The Reid
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Default Re: How is this itinerary for first trip to Europe

On Tue, 23 Jan 2007 00:14:28 +0100, [email protected] (David Horne,
_the_ chancellor (*)) wrote:

>> hence not called the romantic railway?
>
>I admit, Romantic Road is a bit of an oxymoron for me. Deserted road
>with no traffic is kind of romantic, I suppose.

one car is romantic if you're in it, not that romantic is the right
word.
--
Mike Reid
UK walking, food, photos "http://www.fellwalk.co.uk" <-- you can email us@ this site
Spain walking, food, tourism "http://www.fell-walker.co.uk"
Beginners UK flight sim addons "http://www.lawn-mower-man.co.uk"
 
Old Jan 22nd 2007, 8:34 pm
  #71  
The Reid
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Default Re: How is this itinerary for first trip to Europe

On Tue, 23 Jan 2007 00:28:00 +0100, [email protected] (David Horne,
_the_ chancellor (*)) wrote:

>> they would give that impression from PT?
>
>Where do most people go in the Lake District? Do they go to that place
>in the middle of nowhere that you go to (very nice by the sound of it)
>or do they go to Windermere or Ambleside, and spend a lot of time in the
>summer driving quite slowly inbetween.

Right, <rant on>

I see hundreds of people out on the fells, I don't spend my time
driving between Ambleside and Windermere, like other walkers I never
go to Windermere. We all use cars to get to the walking start points
like Wasdale Head and Seathwaite farm etc etc etc. There are a *lot*
of us, (you just don't see us all at once) its one of the countries
most popular hobbies along with birdwatching and fishing.
Go to Keswick and look at the crowds there, all clearly walkers
between walks from their clothes and the alarming (excessive) number
of "outdoor" shops. Windermere isn't really a walking centre, more a
Beatrice Potter centre or whatever (isn't whatever a useful word?).

There are other people who I assume turn up in windermere in mid
summer with no idea why they are there. No doubt its the same in some
other shithole like Blackpool. In a free country you can only easily
stop then so doing by also destroying the rights of the rest unless we
appoint some Czar of whose journey is valid. So it happens. It seems
you would like to stop all the walkers , birdwatchers doing what they
do to stop a few hundred pillocks trying to park in Windermere on
August bank holiday. A much better solution would be for *you* not to
go to Windermere in August and so not be annoyed by the pillocks! But
you insist on only using PT so you see the ELD at its worst. For all I
know Windermere is a planned honeypot to keep the
imagination-challenged from spoiling things for the rest of us!
Get yourself round to Wasdale, climb Lords Rake,
"http://www.fellwalk.co.uk/pict021.htm"
scare the shit out of yourself, have a few pints of on site brewed
beer and a "lamb henry" and chill out and stop obsessing about cars!
If you like i'll drive you over the Hardnott and Wrynose passes Jeremy
Clarheson style, *that* would give you something to complain about!
:-)

In Snowdonia the local authority has twice (maybe now done it?) tried
to force walkers to park in the honey-pots and use buses* to get to
the start of walks, because they think the long lines of parked cars
along the road side spoil the view for the non walkers rubber necking
along the road. What they should do is not worry about the walkers
parked cars, (they are invisible to anybody who gets off their fat
arse and walks for five minutes) and just be glad they have an
environment that attracts visitors all year round.
They don't actually have a problem, they just think they do. Parked
cars are *so* terrible, get away from the road then idiots!

Why not make windermere car free so they come and spoil somewhere
else?

* and of course they proposed to start too later and finish too early
for anyone doing a serious walk.

</rant>
--
Mike Reid
UK walking, food, photos "http://www.fellwalk.co.uk" <-- you can email us@ this site
Spain walking, food, tourism "http://www.fell-walker.co.uk"
Beginners UK flight sim addons "http://www.lawn-mower-man.co.uk"
 
Old Jan 22nd 2007, 8:43 pm
  #72  
David Horne
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Default Re: How is this itinerary for first trip to Europe

The Reid <[email protected]> wrote:

> On Tue, 23 Jan 2007 00:25:22 +0100, [email protected] (David Horne,
> _the_ chancellor (*)) wrote:
[]
> >I never find it limiting, because I work around it. I note that HH's
> >good post is very do-able by public transport- indeed, we did almost the
> >same trip a while back.
>
> walking is indeed the best way for shorter distances, its the best for
> longer ones too, but a minority have the fitness and time to do it
> that way.

If you read the suggested itinerary, it's actually very doable by public
transport. Easily doable.

--
(*) ... of the royal duchy of city south and deansgate
David Horne- http://www.davidhorne.net
(don't email yahoo address) usenet (at) davidhorne (dot) co (dot) uk
 
Old Jan 22nd 2007, 8:57 pm
  #73  
The Reid
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Posts: n/a
Default Re: How is this itinerary for first trip to Europe

On Tue, 23 Jan 2007 09:01:15 -0000, "Mark Hewitt" <[email protected]>
wrote:

>Personally I go to Keswick and then enjoy driving up in the hills.

you mean walking up in the hills? Keswick is the best big walking base
--
Mike Reid
UK walking, food, photos "http://www.fellwalk.co.uk" <-- you can email us@ this site
Spain walking, food, tourism "http://www.fell-walker.co.uk"
Beginners UK flight sim addons "http://www.lawn-mower-man.co.uk"
 
Old Jan 22nd 2007, 8:57 pm
  #74  
The Reid
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Posts: n/a
Default Re: How is this itinerary for first trip to Europe

On Tue, 23 Jan 2007 10:13:09 +0100, [email protected] (David Horne,
_the_ chancellor (*)) wrote:

>> Personally I go to Keswick and then enjoy driving up in the hills.
>> Without a car I'm stuck to going to Windermere, and even then the train
>> service sucks.

>Reid goes to remote places too,

ELD places are not really what you could call "remote", just
inconvenient (or sometimes impossible) by public transport.
Keswick certainly isnt remote! But its a much better place, go there
next time. You could climb Skiddaw from the town if you really want to
or there must be a bus or something round to Catbells and Dale Head
(its too much added time to walk to the start of the walk).
The Dog and Gun is a good pub.
--
Mike Reid
UK walking, food, photos "http://www.fellwalk.co.uk" <-- you can email us@ this site
Spain walking, food, tourism "http://www.fell-walker.co.uk"
Beginners UK flight sim addons "http://www.lawn-mower-man.co.uk"
 
Old Jan 22nd 2007, 9:08 pm
  #75  
The Reid
Guest
 
Posts: n/a
Default Re: How is this itinerary for first trip to Europe

On Tue, 23 Jan 2007 10:43:05 +0100, [email protected] (David Horne,
_the_ chancellor (*)) wrote:

>> walking is indeed the best way for shorter distances, its the best for
>> longer ones too, but a minority have the fitness and time to do it
>> that way.
>
>If you read the suggested itinerary, it's actually very doable by public
>transport. Easily doable.

I know nothing about the Rhine*, I'm speaking of general principles.
Walking you are involved in the place, you can stop, you can divert.


*boat? Just a thought
--
Mike Reid
UK walking, food, photos "http://www.fellwalk.co.uk" <-- you can email us@ this site
Spain walking, food, tourism "http://www.fell-walker.co.uk"
Beginners UK flight sim addons "http://www.lawn-mower-man.co.uk"
 

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