Padraig Breathnach

I am just back from a short break in Barcelona. Even at this time of
year, there were large numbers of visitors there, of many
nationalities. These included quite a lot of Americans.

I had pleasant interaction with several of the Americans, including a
drinking session with a group in the hotel where I stayed. As I have
often found, most Americans are good tourists and pleasant people to
meet.

Whatever about the position of the Spanish government, it is very
clear that there is much opposition in Barcelona to "the war". I saw
"No a la Guerra" posters in all sorts of places, including on tour
buses, in shops and cafés and restaurants (many of which depend on
tourists), and in churches.

One morning I was killing a little time in the hotel lobby. There were
a number of people about, including a man sitting on his own reading
the "Herald Tribune". He finished with the paper, tossed it onto a
table, and said loudly in an American accent to nobody in particular
(and, by implication, to everybody in the vicinity) "Saddam has got to
go".

What might he achieve by such behaviour? The chance of persuading
people to change their minds was negligible. The benefit to him of
advertising his "patriotism" was trivial. The chance of persuading
Europeans that Americans are assholes was real. The chance of tilting
popular sentiment another bit towards anti-Americanism was there.

The potential losers are the many Americans who visit Europe and
behave appropriately, and who are welcome guests.

Sad.

PB

Charles Hawtrey

On Fri, 28 Feb 2003 00:46:39 +0000, Padraig Breathnach
wrote:

    >One morning I was killing a little time in the hotel lobby. There were
    >a number of people about, including a man sitting on his own reading
    >the "Herald Tribune". He finished with the paper, tossed it onto a
    >table, and said loudly in an American accent to nobody in particular
    >(and, by implication, to everybody in the vicinity) "Saddam has got to
    >go".
    >What might he achieve by such behaviour?

The fact that he was saying this to "nobody in particular" strongly
suggests that he was not trying to achieve anything, just letting off
steam. There are people who apparently have no filtering mechanism
between their brains and their mouths.

I actually agree with his basic sentiment (Saddam is a horrible guy
and the world would be better off without him) but would never say so
in the way that he did. There are times when one should follow Mr.
Chirac's advice and take the opportunity to keep one's mouth shut.

The broader point is that if someone is looking for evidence to
reinforce a stereotype, they can usually find it -- be it the loud
American, the rigid German, the miserly Scotsman, or whatever.


___________________________________________
Unit #02582: Endangered Old-Growth Redwood
Toothpick Artisans, LLC [TINEOGRTALLC]
--
Frivolity is a stern taskmaster.

Deep Floyd Mars

    > One morning I was killing a little time in the hotel lobby. There were
    > a number of people about, including a man sitting on his own reading
    > the "Herald Tribune". He finished with the paper, tossed it onto a
    > table, and said loudly in an American accent to nobody in particular
    > (and, by implication, to everybody in the vicinity) "Saddam has got to
    > go".
    > What might he achieve by such behaviour? The chance of persuading
    > people to change their minds was negligible. The benefit to him of
    > advertising his "patriotism" was trivial. The chance of persuading
    > Europeans that Americans are assholes was real. The chance of tilting
    > popular sentiment another bit towards anti-Americanism was there.
    > The potential losers are the many Americans who visit Europe and
    > behave appropriately, and who are welcome guests.

Ignore it. He was probably just letting off steam, and should not reflect on
Americans as a whole. Even good travellers can be 'ugly' at times.

I have never met anyone anywhere that wants Saddam left in power. The real
point of contention is how to deal with him.
---
DFM

Arkadya

What might he achieve by such behaviour?

I would have done that if I was reading something that upset me. Point is NO
ONE said anthing to him. Thats another stereotype, The scared European
Never Forgive, Never Forget
9-11-01

Padraig Breathnach

[email protected] (ARKADYA) wrote:

    >What might he achieve by such behaviour?
    >I would have done that if I was reading something that upset me. Point is NO
    >ONE said anthing to him. Thats another stereotype, The scared European

I spent ten whole seconds trying to find the reasoning in this answer.
What a waste of time.

PB

Mason Barge

Why are you complaining to us about something some guy -- who we have never even
met and have no idea who he is -- did in a hotel lobby? Why did he have
scrabled eggs for breakfast? I have no idea. Why did he beat his wife in their
hotel room? Don't ask me.

Send me his name and address and I will send him a letter instructing him not to
voice his opinions when in Spain in the future. And while we are at it, you can
write the Danish lady who was on a bus with me in Madrid who was complaining
about bullfighting and saying Denmark "shouldn't be in the United Nations with
Spain" because of it.

On Fri, 28 Feb 2003 00:46:39 +0000, Padraig Breathnach wrote:

    >I am just back from a short break in Barcelona. Even at this time of
    >year, there were large numbers of visitors there, of many
    >nationalities. These included quite a lot of Americans.
    >I had pleasant interaction with several of the Americans, including a
    >drinking session with a group in the hotel where I stayed. As I have
    >often found, most Americans are good tourists and pleasant people to
    >meet.
    >Whatever about the position of the Spanish government, it is very
    >clear that there is much opposition in Barcelona to "the war". I saw
    >"No a la Guerra" posters in all sorts of places, including on tour
    >buses, in shops and cafés and restaurants (many of which depend on
    >tourists), and in churches.
    >One morning I was killing a little time in the hotel lobby. There were
    >a number of people about, including a man sitting on his own reading
    >the "Herald Tribune". He finished with the paper, tossed it onto a
    >table, and said loudly in an American accent to nobody in particular
    >(and, by implication, to everybody in the vicinity) "Saddam has got to
    >go".
    >What might he achieve by such behaviour? The chance of persuading
    >people to change their minds was negligible. The benefit to him of
    >advertising his "patriotism" was trivial. The chance of persuading
    >Europeans that Americans are assholes was real. The chance of tilting
    >popular sentiment another bit towards anti-Americanism was there.
    >The potential losers are the many Americans who visit Europe and
    >behave appropriately, and who are welcome guests.
    >Sad.
    >PB

--
"If this is coffee, please bring me some tea. If this is tea, please bring me some coffee."
- Abraham Lincoln

Padraig Breathnach

Mason Barge wrote:

    >Why are you complaining to us about something some guy -- who we have never even
    >met and have no idea who he is -- did in a hotel lobby? Why did he have
    >scrabled eggs for breakfast? I have no idea. Why did he beat his wife in their
    >hotel room? Don't ask me.
    >Send me his name and address and I will send him a letter instructing him not to
    >voice his opinions when in Spain in the future. And while we are at it, you can
    >write the Danish lady who was on a bus with me in Madrid who was complaining
    >about bullfighting and saying Denmark "shouldn't be in the United Nations with
    >Spain" because of it.
I made the observation -- not a complaint -- to illustrate how one
thoughtless or ill-mannered American can create a negative impression
of Americans which has more impact than the perfectly-acceptable
behaviour of the less loud-mouthed.

A point which you reinforce.

PB

    >On Fri, 28 Feb 2003 00:46:39 +0000, Padraig Breathnach wrote:
    >>I am just back from a short break in Barcelona. Even at this time of
    >>year, there were large numbers of visitors there, of many
    >>nationalities. These included quite a lot of Americans.
    >>I had pleasant interaction with several of the Americans, including a
    >>drinking session with a group in the hotel where I stayed. As I have
    >>often found, most Americans are good tourists and pleasant people to
    >>meet.
    >>Whatever about the position of the Spanish government, it is very
    >>clear that there is much opposition in Barcelona to "the war". I saw
    >>"No a la Guerra" posters in all sorts of places, including on tour
    >>buses, in shops and cafés and restaurants (many of which depend on
    >>tourists), and in churches.
    >>One morning I was killing a little time in the hotel lobby. There were
    >>a number of people about, including a man sitting on his own reading
    >>the "Herald Tribune". He finished with the paper, tossed it onto a
    >>table, and said loudly in an American accent to nobody in particular
    >>(and, by implication, to everybody in the vicinity) "Saddam has got to
    >>go".
    >>What might he achieve by such behaviour? The chance of persuading
    >>people to change their minds was negligible. The benefit to him of
    >>advertising his "patriotism" was trivial. The chance of persuading
    >>Europeans that Americans are assholes was real. The chance of tilting
    >>popular sentiment another bit towards anti-Americanism was there.
    >>The potential losers are the many Americans who visit Europe and
    >>behave appropriately, and who are welcome guests.
    >>Sad.
    >>PB

Charles Hawtrey

On Fri, 28 Feb 2003 13:32:56 +0000, Padraig Breathnach
wrote:

    >I made the observation -- not a complaint -- to illustrate how one
    >thoughtless or ill-mannered American can create a negative impression
    >of Americans which has more impact than the perfectly-acceptable
    >behaviour of the less loud-mouthed.

Replace "American" with "person from a given country" and you're
spot-on.


___________________________________________
Unit #02582: Endangered Old-Growth Redwood
Toothpick Artisans, LLC [TINEOGRTALLC]
--
Frivolity is a stern taskmaster.

Padraig Breathnach

[email protected] (Charles Hawtrey) wrote:

    >On Fri, 28 Feb 2003 13:32:56 +0000, Padraig Breathnach
    > wrote:
    >>I made the observation -- not a complaint -- to illustrate how one
    >>thoughtless or ill-mannered American can create a negative impression
    >>of Americans which has more impact than the perfectly-acceptable
    >>behaviour of the less loud-mouthed.
    >Replace "American" with "person from a given country" and you're
    >spot-on.
A fair point.

I made the particular observation because that is what I happened to
experience this week, and because there have been many posts in this
group recently concerning how Americans might be treated in Europe in
the light of the strong anti-war sentiment here.

PB

Cb

I was in Barcelona February 15th when they had a "manifestation" with an
estimated 1.3 million people. I had never seen such a sea of humarity and
since Placa Catalunya was the center of the rally, I couldn't even get back
to my hotel in La Rambla. People were carrying "No A La Guerra" signs and
buttons saying "PAU", which I believe is the Catalan word for peace. I
personally did not encounter any hostility "from" Americans. OK, so you saw
ONE LOUSY AMERICAN behaving like you said. Drawing any conclusion from the
behavior of one solitary American tourist is, in my humble opinion, totally
misguided.

"Padraig Breathnach" wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
    > I am just back from a short break in Barcelona. Even at this time of
    > year, there were large numbers of visitors there, of many
    > nationalities. These included quite a lot of Americans.
    > I had pleasant interaction with several of the Americans, including a
    > drinking session with a group in the hotel where I stayed. As I have
    > often found, most Americans are good tourists and pleasant people to
    > meet.
    > Whatever about the position of the Spanish government, it is very
    > clear that there is much opposition in Barcelona to "the war". I saw
    > "No a la Guerra" posters in all sorts of places, including on tour
    > buses, in shops and cafés and restaurants (many of which depend on
    > tourists), and in churches.
    > One morning I was killing a little time in the hotel lobby. There were
    > a number of people about, including a man sitting on his own reading
    > the "Herald Tribune". He finished with the paper, tossed it onto a
    > table, and said loudly in an American accent to nobody in particular
    > (and, by implication, to everybody in the vicinity) "Saddam has got to
    > go".
    > What might he achieve by such behaviour? The chance of persuading
    > people to change their minds was negligible. The benefit to him of
    > advertising his "patriotism" was trivial. The chance of persuading
    > Europeans that Americans are assholes was real. The chance of tilting
    > popular sentiment another bit towards anti-Americanism was there.
    > The potential losers are the many Americans who visit Europe and
    > behave appropriately, and who are welcome guests.
    > Sad.
    > PB

Padraig Breathnach

"CB" wrote:

    >I was in Barcelona February 15th when they had a "manifestation" with an
    >estimated 1.3 million people. I had never seen such a sea of humarity and
    >since Placa Catalunya was the center of the rally, I couldn't even get back
    >to my hotel in La Rambla. People were carrying "No A La Guerra" signs and
    >buttons saying "PAU", which I believe is the Catalan word for peace. I
    >personally did not encounter any hostility "from" Americans. OK, so you saw
    >ONE LOUSY AMERICAN behaving like you said. Drawing any conclusion from the
    >behavior of one solitary American tourist is, in my humble opinion, totally
    >misguided.
Read with more care if you have comments to make on what I say.

PB

Jenn

In article ,
[email protected] (Charles Hawtrey) wrote:

    > On Fri, 28 Feb 2003 13:32:56 +0000, Padraig Breathnach
    > wrote:
    >
    > >I made the observation -- not a complaint -- to illustrate how one
    > >thoughtless or ill-mannered American can create a negative impression
    > >of Americans which has more impact than the perfectly-acceptable
    > >behaviour of the less loud-mouthed.
    >
    > Replace "American" with "person from a given country" and you're
    > spot-on.
    >

it may be prudent to lie low - to avoid violent or ugly people who
might take offence -- but how is it
'ill mannered' to have an opinion. We know Chirac thinks that Eastern
Europeans are children and should shut up -- but does it really follow
that expressing political opinions is 'ill mannered' and 'poorly brought
up'?

Miguel Cruz

Jenn wrote:
    >> Padraig Breathnach wrote:
    >>> I made the observation -- not a complaint -- to illustrate how one
    >>> thoughtless or ill-mannered American can create a negative impression
    >>> of Americans which has more impact than the perfectly-acceptable
    >>> behaviour of the less loud-mouthed.
    > it may be prudent to lie low - to avoid violent or ugly people who might
    > take offence -- but how is it 'ill mannered' to have an opinion.

It's not ill-mannered to have an opinion, but I don't think it's such a
stretch to say that yelling that opinion out to a crowd of strangers in a
hotel lobby could be considered slightly gauche.

miguel
--
Hit The Road! Photos and tales from around the world: http://travel.u.nu

Grey

On Fri, 28 Feb 2003 00:46:39 +0000, Padraig Breathnach
wrote:

    >One morning I was killing a little time in the hotel lobby. There were
    >a number of people about, including a man sitting on his own reading
    >the "Herald Tribune". He finished with the paper, tossed it onto a
    >table, and said loudly in an American accent to nobody in particular
    >(and, by implication, to everybody in the vicinity) "Saddam has got to
    >go".
    >What might he achieve by such behaviour?

What did he say when you asked him?

---------------------------
A truly cool book:
The World Is Already Yours
Conscious living in the real world
www.alreadyyours.com (sample chapter, etc...)

Elph

Padraig Breathnach spake thusly:

    : One morning I was killing a little time in the hotel lobby. There were
    : a number of people about, including a man sitting on his own reading
    : the "Herald Tribune". He finished with the paper, tossed it onto a
    : table, and said loudly in an American accent to nobody in particular
    : (and, by implication, to everybody in the vicinity) "Saddam has got to
    : go".
    :
    : What might he achieve by such behaviour? The chance of persuading
    : people to change their minds was negligible. The benefit to him of
    : advertising his "patriotism" was trivial. The chance of persuading
    : Europeans that Americans are assholes was real. The chance of tilting
    : popular sentiment another bit towards anti-Americanism was there.
    :
    : The potential losers are the many Americans who visit Europe and
    : behave appropriately, and who are welcome guests.

To tar al merkins with the same brush is a bit disingenuous on your part.
That he was a guest in another country and exhibited what you observed to
be brusque manners in no way diminshes the fact that EU citizenry are
more sensitive to yanks these days than they are other types of tourist.

I mean one could also bemoan the size of naked Germans on the beach, and
the massive quantity of plonk anglos and oirish swill down, but that is
quite beneath me.

--
Jolly Elph