Grimly Curmudgeon

We were somewhere around Barstow, on the edge of the desert, when the
drugs began to take hold. I remember "Martin Harran"
<[email protected]> saying something like:

    >My son and his fianceé are thinking of getting married in Rome next year.
    >Anyone got any experience of this?

No, sorry. Just remind him divorce is easier now.

Apart from that, best wishes to him/them.
--

Dave

Grimly Curmudgeon

We were somewhere around Barstow, on the edge of the desert, when the
drugs began to take hold. I remember Padraig Breathnach
<[email protected]> saying something like:

    >Some Irish couples choose a quiet wedding abroad rather than the
    >present-day version of a traditional Irish wedding, which requires
    >that 200-400 people be invited, fed, watered, and entertained -- very
    >stressful for some, and very expensive. Many couples spend sums like
    >€40,000 on a one-day event.

**** me. You can't buy a house for that any longer, but you can make a
severe dent in the cost of one.

I know which I'd rather have, if starting out on the marriage trail.
--

Dave

Luca Logi

Padraig Breathnach <[email protected]> wrote:

    > My understanding is that if the clergy of the home parishes of both
    > bride and groom are satisfied, there is no great problem.

No: also the priest of the parish performing the marriage should be
satisfied. After all, he is the home keeper.

--
Luca Logi - Firenze - Italy e-mail: [email protected]
Home page: http://www.angelfire.com/ar/archivarius
(musicologia pratica)

Mens sana

"Des Small" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
    > "Ex_OWM" <[email protected]> writes:
    >> <[email protected]> wrote in message
    >> news:[email protected] ups.com...
    >> > Just as a matter of interest, I've been divorced after a registry
    >> > office marriage in Scotland. Now my lady friend is catholic and I was
    >> > brought up as a catholic. Would it be possible for us to get married
    >> > ina church, considering that the catholic church don't recognise
    >> > registry office marriages, so therefore, in their eyes, I haven't been
    >> > married?
    >> You should check this out but AFAIR you can't - the Catholic Church does
    >> recognise registry office marraiges of *non-Catholics* but does not
    >> recognise divorce for them.
    > Fuel to the nuptio-theological fire: the current kronprinsess of
    > Espain, one Letizia, had a previous civil marriage and corresponding
    > civil divorce, both of which the Catholic church in Espain were
    > willing to neglect to consider an impediment to her church wedding to
    > the kronprins.
    > It may conceivably help if your father-in-law-to-be is the prevailing
    > king, though but.
    > Des
Well the Vatican is still lamenting the fact that the UK, USA, Canada,
Australia etc. are largely lost to the godless prods because of Papal
failure to understand royal horniness :-)

MS.

Padraig Breathnach

[email protected] (Luca Logi) wrote:

    >Padraig Breathnach <[email protected]> wrote:
    >> My understanding is that if the clergy of the home parishes of both
    >> bride and groom are satisfied, there is no great problem.
    >No: also the priest of the parish performing the marriage should be
    >satisfied. After all, he is the home keeper.

True. But that is usually easy to arrange.

--
PB
The return address has been MUNGED

Martin Harran

"Tomic" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...

    > To the OP: why not contacting the US Embassy in Rome and see if they know
    > the exact procedure?

The others are right - I'm Irish :)

I'm not too worried about the procedure, we have that fairly well sussed out
at this stage and it's actually fairly straightforward, I'm more interested
in the organisational aspects of it - arranging the reception, the
photographer, the flowers, etc.

From what I can figure out so far, tour companies and wedding organisers
charge about E2000+ on top of the actual costs and we were trying to decide
was whether it was worth paying that or is reasonably straightforward to do
it ourselves.

It looks like the latter applies - following the advice of an Irish guy on
another forum who did this a couple of years ago, I've already spoken to a
priest in St Patrick's Church in Rome and they can handle the ceremony,
there is a good restaurant close to the church that they recommend for the
reception, they can arrange organist, singer, photographer, etc and, as it
is an Irish church (Augustinians), language is no problem.

The money we save can pay for my wife and me to go to Rome this autumn just
to check it all out :) :)

Main bit now is getting accommodation arranged so I'll be back on
rec.travel.europe soon looking for help with that ...

DDT Filled Mormons

On Wed, 3 Aug 2005 21:12:05 +0100, "Mens sana" <[email protected]>
wrote:

    >"DDT Filled Mormons" <deepfreudmoors@eITmISaACTUALLYiREAL!l.nu> wrote in
    >message news:[email protected]...
    >> On Wed, 03 Aug 2005 19:32:15 +0200, B Vaughan<[email protected]> wrote:
    >>>On Tue, 2 Aug 2005 21:21:08 +0000 (UTC), "ALAN HARRISON"
    >>><[email protected]> wrote:
    >>>>"Martin Harran" <[email protected]> wrote in message
    >>>>news:[email protected]...
    >>>>> My son and his fianceé are thinking of getting married in Rome next
    >>>>> year.
    >>>>> Anyone got any experience of this?
    >>>>No, speaking as a lifelong bachelor! However, since it is clearly a
    >>>>Catholic
    >>>>ceremony envisaged by your son, I would suggest that the first port of
    >>>>call
    >>>>is his (or his fiancee's) parish priest. Whether they marry in the
    >>>>Vatican
    >>>>Basilica or a modern "barn" behind the Rome municipal gasworks, they will
    >>>>need to comply with requirements regarding banns and the demands of
    >>>>Italian
    >>>>secular law. The parish priest will be able to provide advice on the
    >>>>former
    >>>>aspect, at least.
    >>>I would like to add that the Catholic Church in Italy frowns on
    >>>performing marriage ceremonies outside the parish of either the bride
    >>>or groom. Some dioceses may be more strict than others, but all the
    >>>ones I know are quite firm about this. I know a couple who wanted to
    >>>get married in a picturesque 12th century abbey; they couldn't get
    >>>permission as neither was resident in the parish where the abbey was
    >>>located. They solved the problem by having the prospective bride
    >>>establish residence in the town a year before the wedding. This
    >>>involved renting an apartment and spending a certain amount of time
    >>>there, voting there, getting mail there, etc.
    >> Sounds like a horrendous waste of money!
    >> A particularly strict Catholic relative of mine wants my marriage to
    >> my wife nullified, and reperformed in the appropriate way (we had a
    >> budget registry office wedding).
    >-----------------------------------------------------------------------
    >HE wants YOUR marriage annulled!
    >Would you not just tell him to go and have a shite for himself.

In any other situation, yes. But this is Italy, and tolerating
religious views whilst being hugely hipocritical is a way of life.
--
---
DFM - http://www.deepfriedmars.com
---
--

Alan Harrison

"Martin" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
    > On 04 Aug 2005 12:59:24 +0100, Des Small <[email protected]>
    > wrote:
    >>Fuel to the nuptio-theological fire: the current kronprinsess of
    >>Espain, one Letizia, had a previous civil marriage and corresponding
    >>civil divorce, both of which the Catholic church in Espain were
    >>willing to neglect to consider an impediment to her church wedding to
    >>the kronprins.
    >>It may conceivably help if your father-in-law-to-be is the prevailing
    >>king, though but.
    > or even an Earl?

A Google search for the name of the new Princess of Asturias, Letizia Ortiz,
should reveal all, albeit probably in Spanish.

Dr Ortiz was previously married in a civil ceremony to a lecturer whom she
met as a postgraduate student. She subsequently became a high profile
Spanish television presenter - a younger Anna Ford, in British terms. After
her divorce, she got spliced to the heir to the throne, with a solemn
nuptial Mass celebrated by the Cardinal Archbishop of Madrid in his
cathedral. Somehow she must have procured an ecclesiastical annulment of her
first marriage. While her dad-in-law's job probably helped, I would have to
say in fairness to the RC Church that I'm aware of a an anaologous case
involving a working-class Irish family in Coventry, with the added
complication of the woman's first marriage having been a catholic ceremony.

Alan Harrison

Luca Logi

[email protected] <[email protected]> wrote:

    > Just as a matter of interest, I've been divorced after a registry
    > office marriage in Scotland. Now my lady friend is catholic and I was
    > brought up as a catholic. Would it be possible for us to get married
    > ina church, considering that the catholic church don't recognise
    > registry office marriages, so therefore, in their eyes, I haven't been
    > married?

Yes, it should be possible. I know a married couple that were exactly in
your condition.


--
Luca Logi - Firenze - Italy e-mail: [email protected]
Home page: http://www.angelfire.com/ar/archivarius
(musicologia pratica)

Luca Logi

ALAN HARRISON <[email protected]> wrote:

    > > Is it therefore impossible for Protestants or Jews to get married in thier
    > > own houses of worship in Italy? Or do they get a civil marriage and the
    > > church marriage really has no importance legally? (as is the case with all
    > > marriages in Germany)
    >
    > I await Luca's answer with interest.

Sorry, Alan, I do not remember and I canno check now. In Italy several
denominations have agreements with the state, and the agreement may
concern both contribution from general tax proceeding and marriages. I
am sure that Waldesians (the only indigenous protestant denomination)
and Jewish communities have tax agreement (you see them on our tax
reports), but I am not sure about marriages. On the contrary, I am sure
that Lutherans, that have no tax agreement, also do not have marriage
agreement. But I will check, again, when I am anywhere near an high
speed internet connection.


--
Luca Logi - Firenze - Italy e-mail: [email protected]
Home page: http://www.angelfire.com/ar/archivarius
(musicologia pratica)

Luca Logi

Padraig Breathnach <[email protected]> wrote:

    > >No: also the priest of the parish performing the marriage should be
    > >satisfied. After all, he is the home keeper.
    >
    > True. But that is usually easy to arrange.

Not really, in some cases.

for example, I know the old parish priest of a nice medieval church just
outside Florence. About ten years ago, he was approached by the
representatives of a world fame rockstar, that offered whatever money he
asked to have the church for his marriage. God knows how much the parish
would have needed the money, but no amount of money could convince him.
At the end, the rockstar ended up marrying in a protestant church in the
middle of Florence.

--
Luca Logi - Firenze - Italy e-mail: [email protected]
Home page: http://www.angelfire.com/ar/archivarius
(musicologia pratica)

Padraig Breathnach

[email protected] (Luca Logi) wrote:

    >Padraig Breathnach <[email protected]> wrote:
    >> >No: also the priest of the parish performing the marriage should be
    >> >satisfied. After all, he is the home keeper.
    >>
    >> True. But that is usually easy to arrange.
    >Not really, in some cases.
I know many Irish Catholic couples who married outside their home
parishes. I can think immediately of people who married elsewhere in
Ireland, in France, in Italy (mostly Rome). While it is a minority
thing, it is not at all considered unusual.

    >for example, I know the old parish priest of a nice medieval church just
    >outside Florence. About ten years ago, he was approached by the
    >representatives of a world fame rockstar, that offered whatever money he
    >asked to have the church for his marriage. God knows how much the parish
    >would have needed the money, but no amount of money could convince him.
    >At the end, the rockstar ended up marrying in a protestant church in the
    >middle of Florence.

Usually does not mean always!

I think that might be more difficult in some circumstances, such as a
pretty church which is in much demand, or where the priest in charge
is stubborn or eccentric, or where the priest doubts the religious
sincerity of the couple. Given that the rockstar chose to marry in a
Protestant church, it might be that he was not a committed Catholic. I
suppose an alternative view is that he had become an alienated
Catholic.

--
PB
The return address has been MUNGED

Mini One

Padraig Breathnach <[email protected]> wrote in
news:[email protected]:

    > [email protected] (Luca Logi) wrote:

    >>for example, I know the old parish priest of a nice medieval church just
    >>outside Florence. About ten years ago, he was approached by the
    >>representatives of a world fame rockstar, that offered whatever money he
    >>asked to have the church for his marriage. God knows how much the parish
    >>would have needed the money, but no amount of money could convince him.
    >>At the end, the rockstar ended up marrying in a protestant church in the
    >>middle of Florence.
    >
    > Usually does not mean always!
    >
    > I think that might be more difficult in some circumstances, such as a
    > pretty church which is in much demand, or where the priest in charge
    > is stubborn or eccentric, or where the priest doubts the religious
    > sincerity of the couple. Given that the rockstar chose to marry in a
    > Protestant church, it might be that he was not a committed Catholic. I
    > suppose an alternative view is that he had become an alienated
    > Catholic.
    >

I'm not sure offering lots of cash is really the way to get the local
parish priest on your side... Maybe a different tactic would have worked
better, even if the church did need the money.

B Vaughan

On 4 Aug 2005 03:54:04 -0700, "[email protected]" <[email protected]>
wrote:

    >Just as a matter of interest, I've been divorced after a registry
    >office marriage in Scotland. Now my lady friend is catholic and I was
    >brought up as a catholic. Would it be possible for us to get married
    >ina church, considering that the catholic church don't recognise
    >registry office marriages, so therefore, in their eyes, I haven't been
    >married?

As it was explained to me, the Catholic Church doesn't recognize the
validity of civil marriages for Catholics, but it does recognize them
as legitimate for Protestants and others. Thus if you were still a
Catholic when you got married, the marriage is not valid. If you were
not, it is.
--
Barbara Vaughan
My email address is my first initial followed by my surname at libero dot it
I answer travel questions only in the newsgroup

Fergus O'Rourke

<[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected] ups.com...
    > Just as a matter of interest, I've been divorced after a registry
    > office marriage in Scotland. Now my lady friend is catholic and I was
    > brought up as a catholic. Would it be possible for us to get married
    > ina church, considering that the catholic church don't recognise
    > registry office marriages, so therefore, in their eyes, I haven't been
    > married?
    > BTW, we're talking Ireland.

I am not sure that it is correct to say that the RC church does not
recognise
such marriages. It is wrong in the Church's eyes to get married without
receiving the sacrament of matrimony, but IIRC, it may still be a valid
marriage.

As far as the State is concerned, if you get married again, it will be
bigamy.