Des Small

Martin <[email protected]> writes:

    > On 03 Aug 2005 14:24:43 +0100, Des Small <[email protected]>
    > wrote:
    >
    > >Martin <[email protected]> writes:
    > >
    > >> >> Couples marrying abroad should consider the implications if ever they
    > >> >> want to get divorced.
    > >> >
    > >> >Which are?
    > >>
    > >> Rather obvious.
    > >
    > >Not to me, certainly.
    > >
    > >>In the case of the Vatican, they don't approve of divorce.
    > >
    > >But it doesn't follow that you have to ask their permission. A
    > >passing German page remarks:
    >
    > How does that apply to a non German?

Mutatis mutandum, would be my guess.

    > >"""
    > >The place at which the marriage was entered into does not
    > >automatically determine which court will have jurisdiction over the
    > >case or which law will be applied to the divorce proceedings. Both
    > >these issues have to be determined in each individual case.
    >
    > Determination will involve lawyers and will not be cheap by
    > definition.

They make it sound like it's only really non-trivial if at least one
of the married persons is living outside Germany. Obviously there
will be some cases that are hard, but I would expect two Germans,
Irish, British or Belgians who got married in Las Vegas, came back to
their native land and wanted a divorce five years later would be dealt
with in an entirely straightforward way under their local domestic
laws.

[...]

    > >So far as I can tell, permanent UK residents would also need to
    > >obtain a divorce in the UK, regardless of where they were married.
    > >(It seems, in fact, scarcely imaginable that it could be otherwise,
    > >but I am certainly not a lawyer.)
    > >
    > ><http://www.ind.homeoffice.gov.uk/ind/en/home/laws___policy/policy_instructions/nis/c-d/divorce.textonly.html>
    >
    > The link doesn't open is it broken?

Works here. Did you get a get a stray return caught in it?

Des

Martin

On 03 Aug 2005 15:21:34 +0100, Des Small <[email protected]>
wrote:

    >Martin <[email protected]> writes:
    >> On 03 Aug 2005 14:24:43 +0100, Des Small <[email protected]>
    >> wrote:
    >>
    >> >Martin <[email protected]> writes:
    >> >
    >> >> >> Couples marrying abroad should consider the implications if ever they
    >> >> >> want to get divorced.
    >> >> >
    >> >> >Which are?
    >> >>
    >> >> Rather obvious.
    >> >
    >> >Not to me, certainly.
    >> >
    >> >>In the case of the Vatican, they don't approve of divorce.
    >> >
    >> >But it doesn't follow that you have to ask their permission. A
    >> >passing German page remarks:
    >>
    >> How does that apply to a non German?
    >Mutatis mutandum, would be my guess.
    >> >"""
    >> >The place at which the marriage was entered into does not
    >> >automatically determine which court will have jurisdiction over the
    >> >case or which law will be applied to the divorce proceedings. Both
    >> >these issues have to be determined in each individual case.
    >>
    >> Determination will involve lawyers and will not be cheap by
    >> definition.
    >They make it sound like it's only really non-trivial if at least one
    >of the married persons is living outside Germany. Obviously there
    >will be some cases that are hard, but I would expect two Germans,
    >Irish, British or Belgians who got married in Las Vegas, came back to
    >their native land and wanted a divorce five years later would be dealt
    >with in an entirely straightforward way under their local domestic
    >laws.
    >[...]
    >> >So far as I can tell, permanent UK residents would also need to
    >> >obtain a divorce in the UK, regardless of where they were married.
    >> >(It seems, in fact, scarcely imaginable that it could be otherwise,
    >> >but I am certainly not a lawyer.)
    >> >
    >> ><http://www.ind.homeoffice.gov.uk/ind/en/home/laws___policy/policy_instructions/nis/c-d/divorce.textonly.html>
    >>
    >> The link doesn't open is it broken?
    >Works here. Did you get a get a stray return caught in it?

It just didn't open.

I had a German friend, who was married to Canadian. They were married
in France. When they both wanted to divorce neither was living in
France or Germany. It dragged on for years before they were finally
divorced.
--
Martin

Des Small

Martin <[email protected]> writes:

    > On 03 Aug 2005 15:21:34 +0100, Des Small <[email protected]>
    > wrote:
    >
    > >Martin <[email protected]> writes:
    > >> >
    > >> ><http://www.ind.homeoffice.gov.uk/ind/en/home/laws___policy/policy_instructions/nis/c-d/divorce.textonly.html>
    > >>
    > >> The link doesn't open is it broken?
    > >
    > >Works here. Did you get a get a stray return caught in it?
    >
    > It just didn't open.
    >
    > I had a German friend, who was married to Canadian. They were married
    > in France. When they both wanted to divorce neither was living in
    > France or Germany.

Or Canananada?

    > It dragged on for years before they were finally divorced.

Well I can see that. If persons from countries A and B get married in
country C (all distinct), split up and move (not necessarily in that
order) to countries D and E (distinct from A, B and C but not
necessarily each other), where at least one of them seeks a divorce
then it's a safe bet that no one except the International League of
Divorce Lawyers is going to enjoy it very much.

But removing country C from the chain doesn't strike me as the change
most likely to reduce the agony.

Des

Michilín

On Tue, 2 Aug 2005 17:58:22 -0400, "Clydeside Red"
<[email protected]> wrote:

    >"ALAN HARRISON" <[email protected]> wrote in message
    >news:[email protected]...
    >> "Martin Harran" <[email protected]> wrote in message
    >> news:[email protected]...
    >>> My son and his fianceé are thinking of getting married in Rome next year.
    >>> Anyone got any experience of this?
    >> No, speaking as a lifelong bachelor! However, since it is clearly a
    >> Catholic ceremony envisaged by your son, I would suggest that the first
    >> port of call is his (or his fiancee's) parish priest. Whether they marry
    >> in the Vatican Basilica or a modern "barn" behind the Rome municipal
    >> gasworks, they will need to comply with requirements regarding banns and
    >> the demands of Italian secular law. The parish priest will be able to
    >> provide advice on the former aspect, at least.
    >I thought Vatican City was an independent sovereign state, and not part of
    >Italy?
Me too.

Maybe it depends on whether the wedding is held in the Vatican Bar or
Lounge?

Mìcheil
S' an tir na deòir 's e 'n eug ar dualchas
In the land of tears death is our heritage

B Vaughan

On Wed, 3 Aug 2005 07:19:41 -0400, "Clydeside Red"
<[email protected]> wrote:

    >"Martin Harran" <[email protected]> wrote in message
    >news:[email protected]...
    >> "ALAN HARRISON" <[email protected]> wrote in message
    >> news:[email protected]...
    >>> "Martin Harran" <[email protected]> wrote in message
    >>> news:[email protected]...
    >>>> My son and his fianceé are thinking of getting married in Rome next
    >>>> year.
    >>>> Anyone got any experience of this?
    >>> No, speaking as a lifelong bachelor! However, since it is clearly a
    >>> Catholic ceremony envisaged by your son, I would suggest that the first
    >>> port of call is his (or his fiancee's) parish priest. Whether they marry
    >>> in the Vatican Basilica or a modern "barn" behind the Rome municipal
    >>> gasworks, they will need to comply with requirements regarding banns and
    >>> the demands of Italian secular law. The parish priest will be able to
    >>> provide advice on the former aspect, at least.
    >> I should have said that the religious/civil requirements aren't an issue,
    >> they've checked that out - it's the organisational aspects they're more
    >> interested in hearing about
    >I think Italy conforms to canon law on marriage, not the other way around.

If you mean that civil marriages have to conform to canon law, you're
wrong. For instance, there's no civil law barrier to remarriage of
divorced persons.


--
Barbara Vaughan
My email address is my first initial followed by my surname at libero dot it
I answer travel questions only in the newsgroup

B Vaughan

On Wed, 03 Aug 2005 15:13:57 +0200, Martin <[email protected]> wrote:

    >On 3 Aug 2005 05:54:17 -0700, [email protected] wrote:
    >>Martin a écrit :
    >>> On Tue, 02 Aug 2005 23:55:53 +0100, Padraig Breathnach
    >>> <[email protected]> wrote:
    >>> >Some Irish couples choose a quiet wedding abroad rather than the
    >>> >present-day version of a traditional Irish wedding, which requires
    >>> >that 200-400 people be invited, fed, watered, and entertained -- very
    >>> >stressful for some, and very expensive. Many couples spend sums like
    >>> >¤40,000 on a one-day event.
    >>> Couples marrying abroad should consider the implications if ever they
    >>> want to get divorced.
    >>Which are?
    >Rather obvious. In the case of the Vatican, they don't approve of
    >divorce.
    > If you are not resident in the place you marry, when you want to
    >divorce, in general legal fees will cost you an arm and a leg and the
    >divorce will drag on forever.

If you are resident in a country, the divorce laws of that country
apply, no matter where you got married. I got married in the US, but
if I were to get divorced I would have to get divorced according to
Italian law, unless I were to reestablish residency in the US.

When I came to Italy, I had to do some bureaucratic stuff to have my
marriage recognized under Italian law. I think the only thing I had to
do was have my marriage certificate officially translated and have an
official seal (an apostille) attached by the state department in NJ.
Then I had to bring it to our town hall, who registered me as a
resident in our town and both my husband and I as legally married to
each other.

--
Barbara Vaughan
My email address is my first initial followed by my surname at libero dot it
I answer travel questions only in the newsgroup

B Vaughan

On Tue, 2 Aug 2005 21:21:08 +0000 (UTC), "ALAN HARRISON"
<[email protected]> wrote:

    >"Martin Harran" <[email protected]> wrote in message
    >news:[email protected]...
    >> My son and his fianceé are thinking of getting married in Rome next year.
    >> Anyone got any experience of this?
    >No, speaking as a lifelong bachelor! However, since it is clearly a Catholic
    >ceremony envisaged by your son, I would suggest that the first port of call
    >is his (or his fiancee's) parish priest. Whether they marry in the Vatican
    >Basilica or a modern "barn" behind the Rome municipal gasworks, they will
    >need to comply with requirements regarding banns and the demands of Italian
    >secular law. The parish priest will be able to provide advice on the former
    >aspect, at least.

I would like to add that the Catholic Church in Italy frowns on
performing marriage ceremonies outside the parish of either the bride
or groom. Some dioceses may be more strict than others, but all the
ones I know are quite firm about this. I know a couple who wanted to
get married in a picturesque 12th century abbey; they couldn't get
permission as neither was resident in the parish where the abbey was
located. They solved the problem by having the prospective bride
establish residence in the town a year before the wedding. This
involved renting an apartment and spending a certain amount of time
there, voting there, getting mail there, etc.

They also had to find witnesses (four, I think) from the town who
could attest to knowing the bride well and being able to attest to her
character. It was a bit embarrassing when one of the witnesses
couldn't remember her name during the session with the priest, but the
priest pretended not to hear the whispered prompt.

Getting married in Vatican City might be likewise difficult, as the
Italian church tends to conform very closely to Vatican pratice. In
the US, I know many Catholic couples who have got married in churches
outside their parishes, chosen for sentimental reasons. However, this
doesn't happen in Italy.
--
Barbara Vaughan
My email address is my first initial followed by my surname at libero dot it
I answer travel questions only in the newsgroup

Padraig Breathnach

B Vaughan<[email protected]> wrote:

    >I would like to add that the Catholic Church in Italy frowns on
    >performing marriage ceremonies outside the parish of either the bride
    >or groom. Some dioceses may be more strict than others, but all the
    >ones I know are quite firm about this.
My understanding is that if the clergy of the home parishes of both
bride and groom are satisfied, there is no great problem.

--
PB
The return address has been MUNGED

Ex_OWM

"Padraig Breathnach" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
    >B Vaughan<[email protected]> wrote:
    >>I would like to add that the Catholic Church in Italy frowns on
    >>performing marriage ceremonies outside the parish of either the bride
    >>or groom. Some dioceses may be more strict than others, but all the
    >>ones I know are quite firm about this.
    > My understanding is that if the clergy of the home parishes of both
    > bride and groom are satisfied, there is no great problem.

You're quite right for Catholics as long as the marraige is in a Catholic
Church and all the normal procedures (Letters of Freedom, etc) have been
followed.

DDT Filled Mormons

On Wed, 03 Aug 2005 19:32:15 +0200, B Vaughan<[email protected]> wrote:

    >On Tue, 2 Aug 2005 21:21:08 +0000 (UTC), "ALAN HARRISON"
    ><[email protected]> wrote:
    >>"Martin Harran" <[email protected]> wrote in message
    >>news:[email protected]...
    >>> My son and his fianceé are thinking of getting married in Rome next year.
    >>> Anyone got any experience of this?
    >>No, speaking as a lifelong bachelor! However, since it is clearly a Catholic
    >>ceremony envisaged by your son, I would suggest that the first port of call
    >>is his (or his fiancee's) parish priest. Whether they marry in the Vatican
    >>Basilica or a modern "barn" behind the Rome municipal gasworks, they will
    >>need to comply with requirements regarding banns and the demands of Italian
    >>secular law. The parish priest will be able to provide advice on the former
    >>aspect, at least.
    >I would like to add that the Catholic Church in Italy frowns on
    >performing marriage ceremonies outside the parish of either the bride
    >or groom. Some dioceses may be more strict than others, but all the
    >ones I know are quite firm about this. I know a couple who wanted to
    >get married in a picturesque 12th century abbey; they couldn't get
    >permission as neither was resident in the parish where the abbey was
    >located. They solved the problem by having the prospective bride
    >establish residence in the town a year before the wedding. This
    >involved renting an apartment and spending a certain amount of time
    >there, voting there, getting mail there, etc.

Sounds like a horrendous waste of money!

A particularly strict Catholic relative of mine wants my marriage to
my wife nullified, and reperformed in the appropriate way (we had a
budget registry office wedding).

He experienced great shock when I told him it was not possible, as I
have never been christened. He almost believed it not to be possible!
--
---
DFM - http://www.deepfriedmars.com
---
--

Luca Logi

ALAN HARRISON <[email protected]> wrote:

    > However, since the likelihood
    > is that the majority of persons wishing to marry in one or other of the
    > churches or chapels within the Vatican City State would be Italian citizens,
    > I should think that it is virtually certain that couples wishing to marry
    > there would need to be free to marry in Italian law. (I have in mind the
    > possibility of someone previously married in an Italian civil ceremony, or a
    > convert previously married in, say, a protestant or Jewish rite.)

For any wish regarding the Vatican, the first person to contact should
be their parish priest or, better, somebody at the local diocesis.
However, without a personal contact in the Vatican, I would consider the
probability of getting something done quite low.

Regarding marriages in Italy (excluding the Vatican, that is a sovereign
state): Italy has a treaty with the Catholic church, giving each parish
priest the possibility of acting as a civil registrar while performing
catholic marriages. Each parish priest has power only on his territory,
and if you bring a priest with you to perform the marriage, he needs a
written proxy by the parish priest, or the parish priest must be present
(even if silent).

So in Italy you can have a civil marriage (at the municipal house by a
civil registrar), a catholic marriage (at a parish church, valid also as
a civil marriage), or in very rare cases a church-only marriage without
civil value (if the civil marriage has been previously performed or in
the extremely rare case of secret marriages).

Two lines of buracracy must be followed. First, you have to satisfy the
conditions for a civil marriage. Not all foreign citizens can have a
civil marriage in Italy recognized by their home country (for example,
French citizens should marry at their mairie, stop). If the marriage is
possible, the procedure may be different according to countries of
provenience and you should contact the local Italian consulate. Banns
(no less than a full week, Sunday to Sunday) are usually necessary, but
sometimes are there is a waiver for foreign couples. In any case,
previously to the marriage, you need to make an appointment at the civil
registrar of the municipality where the marriage will be performed, to
check the papers and make some important decisions (the main being: the
couple will have, after the marriage, joint or separate patrimonial
administration?). If everything is OK, the registrar will issue a permit
to marry. Do not underestimate the time needed to this thing, as it may
require being in Italy several days, if not weeks, before the actual
marriage gets performed.

The permit to marry is enough for a civil only marriage (in this case,
you should just make an appointment for the day the marriage will be
performed). For a catholic marriage, a similar and parallel procedure
should be followed by church bureaucracy, including again banns and
having everything checked by a parish priest before the actual marriage.
The places to start this procedure are the parishes of the bride and the
groom, they will likely take care of the whole procedure short of the
actual marriage. Please note that several catholic parishes (in some
cases, the whole diocesis) in Italy do not accept foreign marriages
(i.e., either the bride or the groom should belong to the parish).

On the day of the marriage, the parish priest checks that the permit to
marry is there, that the ecclesiastical procedure was followed, performs
the marriage, reads the relevant paragraphs of the Italian civil code to
the couple (they will probably need a translator if they do not
understand Italian), and makes two copies of the marriage act. One of
the copies goes back to the civil registrar and the marriage is
considered to have civil value as well.


--
Luca Logi - Firenze - Italy e-mail: [email protected]
Home page: http://www.angelfire.com/ar/archivarius
(musicologia pratica)

Juliana L Holm

In rec.travel.europe Luca Logi <[email protected]> wrote:
    > ALAN HARRISON <[email protected]> wrote:

    >> However, since the likelihood
    >> is that the majority of persons wishing to marry in one or other of the
    >> churches or chapels within the Vatican City State would be Italian citizens,
    >> I should think that it is virtually certain that couples wishing to marry
    >> there would need to be free to marry in Italian law. (I have in mind the
    >> possibility of someone previously married in an Italian civil ceremony, or a
    >> convert previously married in, say, a protestant or Jewish rite.)

    > Regarding marriages in Italy (excluding the Vatican, that is a sovereign
    > state): Italy has a treaty with the Catholic church, giving each parish
    > priest the possibility of acting as a civil registrar while performing
    > catholic marriages. Each parish priest has power only on his territory,
    > and if you bring a priest with you to perform the marriage, he needs a
    > written proxy by the parish priest, or the parish priest must be present
    > (even if silent).

    > So in Italy you can have a civil marriage (at the municipal house by a
    > civil registrar), a catholic marriage (at a parish church, valid also as
    > a civil marriage), or in very rare cases a church-only marriage without
    > civil value (if the civil marriage has been previously performed or in
    > the extremely rare case of secret marriages).

Is it therefore impossible for Protestants or Jews to get married in thier
own houses of worship in Italy? Or do they get a civil marriage and the
church marriage really has no importance legally? (as is the case with all
marriages in Germany)


--
Julie
**********
Check out the blog of my 9 week Germany adventure at www.blurty.com/users/jholm
Check out my Travel Pages (non-commercial) at
http://www.dragonsholm.org/travel.htm

Martin

On Wed, 03 Aug 2005 19:29:01 GMT, DDT Filled Mormons
<deepfreudmoors@eITmISaACTUALLYiREAL!l.nu> wrote:

    >On Wed, 03 Aug 2005 19:32:15 +0200, B Vaughan<[email protected]> wrote:
    >>On Tue, 2 Aug 2005 21:21:08 +0000 (UTC), "ALAN HARRISON"
    >><[email protected]> wrote:
    >>>"Martin Harran" <[email protected]> wrote in message
    >>>news:[email protected]...
    >>>> My son and his fianceé are thinking of getting married in Rome next year.
    >>>> Anyone got any experience of this?
    >>>No, speaking as a lifelong bachelor! However, since it is clearly a Catholic
    >>>ceremony envisaged by your son, I would suggest that the first port of call
    >>>is his (or his fiancee's) parish priest. Whether they marry in the Vatican
    >>>Basilica or a modern "barn" behind the Rome municipal gasworks, they will
    >>>need to comply with requirements regarding banns and the demands of Italian
    >>>secular law. The parish priest will be able to provide advice on the former
    >>>aspect, at least.
    >>I would like to add that the Catholic Church in Italy frowns on
    >>performing marriage ceremonies outside the parish of either the bride
    >>or groom. Some dioceses may be more strict than others, but all the
    >>ones I know are quite firm about this. I know a couple who wanted to
    >>get married in a picturesque 12th century abbey; they couldn't get
    >>permission as neither was resident in the parish where the abbey was
    >>located. They solved the problem by having the prospective bride
    >>establish residence in the town a year before the wedding. This
    >>involved renting an apartment and spending a certain amount of time
    >>there, voting there, getting mail there, etc.
    >Sounds like a horrendous waste of money!
    >A particularly strict Catholic relative of mine wants my marriage to
    >my wife nullified, and reperformed in the appropriate way (we had a
    >budget registry office wedding).
    >He experienced great shock when I told him it was not possible, as I
    >have never been christened. He almost believed it not to be possible!

Exorcism next or perhaps the inquisition?
--
Martin

Mens sana

"DDT Filled Mormons" <deepfreudmoors@eITmISaACTUALLYiREAL!l.nu> wrote in
message news:[email protected]...
    > On Wed, 03 Aug 2005 19:32:15 +0200, B Vaughan<[email protected]> wrote:
    >>On Tue, 2 Aug 2005 21:21:08 +0000 (UTC), "ALAN HARRISON"
    >><[email protected]> wrote:
    >>>"Martin Harran" <[email protected]> wrote in message
    >>>news:[email protected]...
    >>>> My son and his fianceé are thinking of getting married in Rome next
    >>>> year.
    >>>> Anyone got any experience of this?
    >>>No, speaking as a lifelong bachelor! However, since it is clearly a
    >>>Catholic
    >>>ceremony envisaged by your son, I would suggest that the first port of
    >>>call
    >>>is his (or his fiancee's) parish priest. Whether they marry in the
    >>>Vatican
    >>>Basilica or a modern "barn" behind the Rome municipal gasworks, they will
    >>>need to comply with requirements regarding banns and the demands of
    >>>Italian
    >>>secular law. The parish priest will be able to provide advice on the
    >>>former
    >>>aspect, at least.
    >>I would like to add that the Catholic Church in Italy frowns on
    >>performing marriage ceremonies outside the parish of either the bride
    >>or groom. Some dioceses may be more strict than others, but all the
    >>ones I know are quite firm about this. I know a couple who wanted to
    >>get married in a picturesque 12th century abbey; they couldn't get
    >>permission as neither was resident in the parish where the abbey was
    >>located. They solved the problem by having the prospective bride
    >>establish residence in the town a year before the wedding. This
    >>involved renting an apartment and spending a certain amount of time
    >>there, voting there, getting mail there, etc.
    > Sounds like a horrendous waste of money!
    > A particularly strict Catholic relative of mine wants my marriage to
    > my wife nullified, and reperformed in the appropriate way (we had a
    > budget registry office wedding).

-----------------------------------------------------------------------

HE wants YOUR marriage annulled!

Would you not just tell him to go and have a shite for himself.

MS.
-------------------------------------------------------------------------

    > He experienced great shock when I told him it was not possible, as I
    > have never been christened. He almost believed it not to be possible!
    > --
    > ---
    > DFM - http://www.deepfriedmars.com
    > ---
    > --

B Vaughan

On Wed, 03 Aug 2005 19:03:34 +0100, Padraig Breathnach
<[email protected]> wrote:

    >B Vaughan<[email protected]> wrote:
    >>I would like to add that the Catholic Church in Italy frowns on
    >>performing marriage ceremonies outside the parish of either the bride
    >>or groom. Some dioceses may be more strict than others, but all the
    >>ones I know are quite firm about this.
    >My understanding is that if the clergy of the home parishes of both
    >bride and groom are satisfied, there is no great problem.

The priest in our town will not agree under any circumstances. He
blames it on the bishop, but many in our town think the bishop is only
a convenient excuse. He also doesn't want any priest from outside the
parish to perform weddings in "his" churches, even if they have
sentimental connections to the bride or groom.

--
Barbara Vaughan
My email address is my first initial followed by my surname at libero dot it
I answer travel questions only in the newsgroup