Alex Rodriguez

In article , [email protected] says...
    >On 30 Oct 2002 17:56:51 GMT, [email protected] (Alex Rodriguez)
    >wrote:
    >>Don't I wish the US had similar standards.
    >Retroactive at that?

Sure, why not. I wouldn't mind paying $75 to get re-tested as long as
it also applies to all others. That would make driving a much better
experience for all involved.
-----------------
Alex __O
_-\<,_
(_)/ (_)

Bob

On Wed, 30 Oct 2002 19:20:25 Barbara Vaughan
wrote:
    >If I understood correctly, in the UK you are
    >expected to bring the car to a stop with the use of the hand brake, but
    >maybe that was a misunderstanding.
I'm not sure where you got that misinformation, but it is clearly wrong.
In the UK you are expected to bring the car to a stop using the foot
brake. When at a standstill you are expected to apply the hand brake.
The reasons for applying the hand brake have already been posted.

--
Bob (Reply address valid till end of next month)

Terry

Brent P wrote:
    >
    > In article , nightjar wrote:
    >
    > >> Most test-takers don't cut it. Britain's pass rate is under 44% and
    > >> falling. That makes driving tests in places such as New York, where
    > >> 61% of drivers pass, seem a relative breeze.
    >
    > > This is a typically meaninigless use of statistics. The difference between
    > > the pass rates in Britain and those in New York might be a measure of the
    > > relative toughness of the tests, but it could also be that New Yorkers don't
    > > take a test until they are much better prepared than the average Briton. One
    > > thing not mentioned is the relatively high number of UK tests where the
    > > examiner has to take action to prevent an accident.
    >
    > While what you say is a flaw in the use, I doubt any US state test
    > has anywhere close to that difficultly level.

Writing from the experience of driving probably some million
miles in North America, mainly in this part of Canada for about
the last 46 years; and within the last 30 months a three/four
week visit back to UK. British drivers were/are, in my opinion,
MUCH better. Possibly better UK driving IS due to better
training, a different attitude and better (stiffer?) testing?

In this particular society, we are lovely people mind you, it is
sort of assumed, in my opinion, that anybody can drive. Sorry I
don't have a first attempt driving test pass rate; failing is not
often talked about anyway but impression/attitude seems to be
"that you do it once" and then forget about it for the next 50
years, unless a court orders you to take a driving course!
Socially there is little incentive to 'drive well' and little or
no approbation for not following the rules; until there IS an
accident! And then of course it's always the other person's
fault. The 'young bucko driving mad', the handheld cell phone
user, or the little oldster who can barely see over the steering
wheel of the car all get their share of the blame as does our
weather along with overconfident SUV (4WD) users! Large trucks
get complained about but IMO the bigger the truck the better the
driver; delivery vehicles for small firms often driven by a firms
'gofer', often a lad in their late teens enjoying the V6 or V8
motor are worse!

During the mentioned UK visit, in 2000, I drove and was driven
some 1000 miles. UK drivers were very competent. For example,
only once did I see a motorway driver who did not move back into
an inner lane after passing; that was a strange looking European
vehicle possibly driven by someone unfamiliar with UK road rules?
I was also very impressed with the skill and behaviour of the
driver of a more powerful UK car that came up behind that
'offender'. After waiting patiently for at least half a mile it
passed, 'very carefully' on the inside of the vehicle that would
not move over! Could have been a 'road rage' incident in the
making in some jurisdictions in this world!

Also most/all UK drivers appeared to me to have very good control
of their vehicles and to know and obey road rules, to a much
greater extent than here. For example, I had only been back
'home' here, for about 15 hours when I was nearly rammed in the
side by a driver who had contravened the road rules by driving
right over newly yellow painted bars on the road which indicated
'no go' and then 'follow this curved line into the turning lane'!
Oops. Got to remember I'm back here now, where drivers don't
follow the rules! Don't expect them to actually stop at a 'STOP'
sign, or come to a complete halt turning on a red light etc.! In
other words I felt safer on the road in the UK, although unused
to driving on your 'proper side' of the road :-) and the UK
volume of traffic!

So FWIW, maybe, that does relate to affective training and
testing although to compare the pass rates for two such different
administrations seems to be meaningless, until there is an
international driving exam? Probably there isn't even an EC
standard test yet?

Terry. Ta anyway.

PS. As an older (and I hope conscientious) driver, who has
received training during a 40 year employment by a major utility
company, I investigated voluntarily taking a 'Refresher Course'
for older drivers and then learned that it would cost me a
minimum of $75 Canadian plus 15% sales tax! (Roughly 40 quid) so,
on a pension, said 'ferget it'. However, my son, who is quite
capable of being critical, tells me I'm doing OK! One problem is
not to get 'rear ended' as happened to my daughter a few months
back when she DID make a completely legal stop! Seems like the
other driver (yes it's always the other person's fault!) did not
expect her to stop. Duh!

Clivem

Backing out of a driveway would be a fail!
CM
"Brandon Sommerville" wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
    > On Wed, 30 Oct 2002 16:25:17 GMT, Frank Matthews
    > wrote:
    > >Yes, it's amazing how often I've found it necessary to back around a
    > >corner. Wait a minute. Surely it's happened at least once in the last
    > >40 years. Well I guess not. But it's still a really basic skill.
    > >Perhaps everyone should have to do it while towing a trailer.
    > Backing out of a driveway is essentially this procedure, isn't it?
    > Particularly if you live on a busy street.
    > --
    > Brandon Sommerville
    > remove ".gov" to e-mail
    > The easy way is always mined.


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Clivem

Two good reasons. 1, If you're hit from behind, you will be minimising the
accident and avoid hitting pedestrians crossing in front of you. 2, If it's
dark, you won't be dazzling the driver behind with your brake lights.
If your really interested, get a copy of 'Driving' from the HMSO.
CM
"Barbara Vaughan" wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
    > [email protected] wrote:
    > >
    > > Getting a Driver's License Is a Royal Pain in Britain
    > Can someone explain to me why you're supposed to use your hand brake
    > instead of your foot brake when stopping at a red light?
    > Barbara


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Clivem

'I've
managed just fine with the foot brake since the age of 20, and in 40
years of driving have never rolled back into anyone.'

Be very afraid of drivers with this attitude.
CM



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Ignasi Palou-Rivera

[email protected] (Ricardo) writes:
    > Otoh, one probably doesn't even NEED a driver's licence in the UK. I
    > got by perfectly ok without one.

Driving or not driving? Most of the UK's public transportation is
pretty crappy these days, and in all cases it's quite expensive. But
then what isn't too expensive in the UK?

Ignasi Palou-Rivera

[email protected] (Ricardo) writes:
    > As for "cheaper in the UK", you *may* be right about that part.

*Nothing* is cheaper in the UK. It might be more convenient to do a
driving exam in the UK than other European countries because of
language reasons, but I'm sure it's cheaper at any Southern EU
country (Spain, Italy, Greece.)

Nate Nagel

[email protected] wrote in message news:...

    > The examiners quietly made small marks on their clipboards, never
    > revealing how the drivers were doing until the test was finished. But
    > the test-takers know from their lessons that the examiners watch out
    > for compliance with some of the peculiarities of British driving
    > etiquette. Among them: When stopping at a red light, use the
    > handbrake, not the foot brake. Never cross your hands when turning the
    > steering wheel. And never, ever, wave to a pedestrian to signal that
    > it's OK to cross the street. Even agency officials admit that many
    > drivers ignore these rules as soon as the test is over.

Just curious, if any YooKay residents can shed any insight, what is
the rationale for not crossing hands? I was *taught* (US) to use that
method for tight turns, although I can see where that could be bad in
the case of airbag deployment. I tend to drive "Italian style" (hands
at 4 and 8, shuffle-steering) naturally anyway, although, say, in my
Daytona (manual steering, lots of turns lock-to-lock, and a big
American V-8 over the front wheels) I find it easier to use the
hand-over-hand method at slow speeds.

Also, why the requirement to use the hand brake? Do cars in the
YooKay activate the brake lights with the hand brake on? I can see
that practice causing lots of problems here as most drivers barely
stop in time even with nice bright brake lights (and CHMSLs to boot)

nate

Ceejay

    > And in fact the UK test can include freeway driving, it's just that they
    > call 'em "dual carriageways" instead but those are basically 4 lane
    > divided freeways.

I must correct you there. A dual carriageway simply means that there is a
median between lanes travelling in opposite directions. These can, and often
do, have only two lanes in each direction. The only difference between an
A-road and a dual carriageway A-road, apart from the median, is the speed
limit. Assuming a non-urban area, the speed limit is 60 on a normal one, and
70 on a dual carriageway. In urban areas, the speed limit is likely to be
either 40 or 50 MPH. I've seen a few 30s, closer to London of course.

In all other ways, you were correct - a dual carriageway is little more than
a mini-motorway. What separates a dual carriageway A-road from a motorway is
the number of exits, and the degree of the bends.

Clivem

Though still a requirement for the DSA Test, a more relaxed attitude about
this exists amongst 'advanced' driving organisations. The reason for not
crossing hands is that, should the bend tighten unexpectedly or a new hazard
which requires steering input occur, it may be difficult to apply more
steering lock.
CM
"Nate Nagel" wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
    > [email protected] wrote in message
news:...
    > > The examiners quietly made small marks on their clipboards, never
    > > revealing how the drivers were doing until the test was finished. But
    > > the test-takers know from their lessons that the examiners watch out
    > > for compliance with some of the peculiarities of British driving
    > > etiquette. Among them: When stopping at a red light, use the
    > > handbrake, not the foot brake. Never cross your hands when turning the
    > > steering wheel. And never, ever, wave to a pedestrian to signal that
    > > it's OK to cross the street. Even agency officials admit that many
    > > drivers ignore these rules as soon as the test is over.
    > Just curious, if any YooKay residents can shed any insight, what is
    > the rationale for not crossing hands? I was *taught* (US) to use that
    > method for tight turns, although I can see where that could be bad in
    > the case of airbag deployment. I tend to drive "Italian style" (hands
    > at 4 and 8, shuffle-steering) naturally anyway, although, say, in my
    > Daytona (manual steering, lots of turns lock-to-lock, and a big
    > American V-8 over the front wheels) I find it easier to use the
    > hand-over-hand method at slow speeds.
    > Also, why the requirement to use the hand brake? Do cars in the
    > YooKay activate the brake lights with the hand brake on? I can see
    > that practice causing lots of problems here as most drivers barely
    > stop in time even with nice bright brake lights (and CHMSLs to boot)
    > nate


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Ceejay

    > But
    > then there are the unmarked pace cars and piezoelectric timing
    > strips... ya just can't win.

Please visit uk.rec.autos.driving for some of the tactics used by British
police to get convictions.

For those that can't be arsed to look, they actually tailgate you to get you
to speed up, then bust you when you go over the speed limit. I kid you not.

    >Couple that with a low motorway speed
    > limit, high ga$ price$ and kaboom! Not exactly a motorist's
    > paradise. Plus the fact that they drive on the wrong side too...

Oi! We drive on the correct side! (I'd love to see figures for the number of
foreign peds who have been killed/hurt in our respective countries through
looking the wrong way...)

    > I think the "fun" aspect of British motoring these days is pretty
    > much restricted to darting about on narrow country lanes. That's
    > what British motoring was always about anyway, right?

Yes. It still is. And that's one of the reasons the we own small cars that
run like go-karts. If you're ever over here, drop me a line - I know some of
the best areas to go and have a good thrash. Clears the soul just as well as
a good sneeze clears the bronchial tract.

> Otoh, one probably doesn't even NEED a driver's licence in the UK. I
    > got by perfectly ok without one.

God help you if you ever get caught driving without one, though. If you
don't have a license, you have no insurance. If you have neither of those,
you are shafted. You *will* spend some time filling out forms in a concrete
room.

Bob

On Wed, 30 Oct 2002 12:35:48 Nate Nagel wrote:
    >Also, why the requirement to use the hand brake? Do cars in the
    >YooKay activate the brake lights with the hand brake on? I can see
    >that practice causing lots of problems here as most drivers barely
    >stop in time even with nice bright brake lights (and CHMSLs to boot)

There appears to be some confusion here on the subject of hand brake use
in the UK... I hope I can clarify this.

The hand brake is not applied to bring the vehicle to a stop. The hand
brake is applied after the vehicle has come to a stop. No, the brake
lights don't come on when the hand brake is applied, in much the same
way as they don't come on when you shift into "Park" with your auto box.

As a UK citizen who passed his test over 20 years ago and still applies
the hand brake when at a stop (I do it without thinking about it... a
bit like depressing the clutch when changing gear in a manual) I can
appreciate the reasons for its use. Others see things differently and
I'm not about the teach granny to suck eggs.

Whilst on the subject, I've found (when hiring cars in Italy) that
Italians generally seem to leave their cars in 1st gear after turning
off the ignition... and don't apply the hand brake! I remember once
getting into my brand new hire car, turning on the ignition and promptly
smashing into the low brick wall positioned in front of my car. I now
automatically check that the car is out of gear before turning on the
ignition... something that I was taught when learning to drive, but had
forgotten to do over the years as I always leave it in neutral before
leaving the car.

My Italian cousins are astonished by my frequent use of the hand brake,
and ridicule me when I leave the car without putting it in gear first.
Each to his own eh?
--
Bob (Reply address valid till end of next month)

Brent P

In article , Terry wrote:

    > no approbation for not following the rules; until there IS an
    > accident! And then of course it's always the other person's
    > fault. The 'young bucko driving mad',

I had a woman (SUV driver again, if a makes a difference) blow
a stop sign in front of me. I was forced to stop and wasn't happy
about being sent into a panic stop. She admitted that she had
ignored the stop sign and insisted I was at the wrong because
I was, for her going too fast. My speed, a blazing.... 25mph.

Of course I could have been doing 300mph, the fact was she ignored
a stop sign. (this was a road that led to the parking lot of my
then employer, like practically everyone else she had to have
been driving it every day for years)

    > I was also very impressed with the skill and behaviour of the
    > driver of a more powerful UK car that came up behind that
    > 'offender'. After waiting patiently for at least half a mile it
    > passed, 'very carefully' on the inside of the vehicle that would
    > not move over! Could have been a 'road rage' incident in the
    > making in some jurisdictions in this world!

When one of these people occur every 1000 miles it's no big deal.
The frustration comes from the frequency. In the US, I encounter
so many on a 50 mile drive it's not even practical to count them.



    > Also most/all UK drivers appeared to me to have very good control
    > of their vehicles and to know and obey road rules, to a much
    > greater extent than here. For example, I had only been back
    > 'home' here, for about 15 hours when I was nearly rammed in the
    > side by a driver who had contravened the road rules by driving
    > right over newly yellow painted bars on the road which indicated
    > 'no go' and then 'follow this curved line into the turning lane'!
    > Oops. Got to remember I'm back here now, where drivers don't
    > follow the rules! Don't expect them to actually stop at a 'STOP'
    > sign, or come to a complete halt turning on a red light etc.! In
    > other words I felt safer on the road in the UK, although unused
    > to driving on your 'proper side' of the road :-) and the UK
    > volume of traffic!

The worst drive of my life, I believe was the one after getting
back from Germany. LLB's seemingly every 50 ft. people not signaling,
being openly rude, etc and so on. I was completely in tune with
German driving. I expected people to signal, to keep right, etc
and so on. The way driving is over there I could commute the length
of the country every day and enjoy it.

Brent P

In article , CliveM wrote:
    > Backing out of a driveway would be a fail!

Does one have to back in, instead?