Gunter Herrmann

Hi!

Wolfgang Schwanke wrote:

    > Friedrichstraße station was open. It was used as a border checkpoint. You
    > could not leave the station without passing East German passport control.

That is not correct.
West-Berliners could connect between one U-Bahn line and 2 S-Bahn
lines without passport control. And they could buy cheap cigarettes
and spirits.

brgds

--
Gunter Herrmann
Naples, Florida, USA

Tom Peel

Ron wrote:

    > I am planning a trip to Germany and Paris next April. In Germany I have
    > narrowed down my destination down to either Hamburg or Berlin.
Hamburg is ok for one day, choose Berlin for a real visit. This place
has the most remarkable 20th century history.
    >
    > I would like opinions on which city to go to. I am most interested in
    > things to see and do, some museums, ease of getting around town, exotic
    > entertainment.
You'll have to visit somewhere else to find the MoMA, but there's plenty
more. There are enough museums to keep you going for a week. One of the
many boat rides on the river is a must. Checkpoint Charlie is ok even if
it's just a theatrical remake. The Reichstag building is fascinating to
visit, there's a display at the top with the history of the building.
Also, take a look at the Volkspalast while it's still there - it may
be demolished fairly soon.
    >
    > All suggestions are appreciated.
Apart from the other advice about public transport, you can rent
bicycles. For a major city, Berlin is remarkably easy to get round in on
a bike. We were there last April and had brilliant weather for 2 days.
The Deutsche Bahn operates a system of rentabikes that you can rent by
the hour using your mobile phone and a credit card, although the system
may be too daunting if you are not German speaking. Otherwise, there are
a number of rentabike places in the city.
    >
    > Also, the easiest way to travel from Paris to these German cities.

Easyjet flies Paris Orly to Berlin Schönefeld
http://www.easyjet.com/EN/Planning/D...ion/index.html
    >
    > Any inexpensive hotel suggestions (en suite).
Try one of the big chains for bargains. Accor has the whole gamut of
price ranges, starting with Formule 1.
    >
    > Thanks
    >
    >

Bill Moore

In article <[email protected]>,
Gunter Herrmann <[email protected]> wrote:
    >Hi!
    >Wolfgang Schwanke wrote:
    >> Friedrichstraße station was open. It was used as a border checkpoint. You
    >> could not leave the station without passing East German passport control.
    >That is not correct.
    >West-Berliners could connect between one U-Bahn line and 2 S-Bahn
    >lines without passport control. And they could buy cheap cigarettes
    >and spirits.

So in essence anyone who was in West Berlin could get behind
the Iron Curtain undetected?

How did they control the return from East Berlin?
(I assume it wasn't a free pass to escape from East Germany!)

Bill Moore

In article <[email protected]>,
Tom Peel <[email protected]> wrote:
    >Ron wrote:
    >> I am planning a trip to Germany and Paris next April. In Germany I have
    >> narrowed down my destination down to either Hamburg or Berlin.
    >Hamburg is ok for one day, choose Berlin for a real visit. This place
    >has the most remarkable 20th century history.
    >>
    >> I would like opinions on which city to go to. I am most interested in
    >> things to see and do, some museums, ease of getting around town, exotic
    >> entertainment.
    >You'll have to visit somewhere else to find the MoMA, but there's plenty
    >more. There are enough museums to keep you going for a week. One of the
    >many boat rides on the river is a must. Checkpoint Charlie is ok even if
    >it's just a theatrical remake. The Reichstag building is fascinating to
    >visit, there's a display at the top with the history of the building.
    > Also, take a look at the Volkspalast while it's still there - it may
    >be demolished fairly soon.

A cruise on the Berlin canals can be pleasant. And in Hamburg
there are harbor cruises. Also, Hamburg has a nice restaurant
(Wedel stop on the S-Bahn) where you can watch the ships
enter and leave the port of Hamburg as the national anthem
of each ship's country is played. It's a bit touristy and definitely
not "exotic entertainment" but I found it a nice way to relax ;-)

Gunter Herrmann

Hi!

Bill Moore wrote:
    > In article <[email protected]>,
    > Gunter Herrmann <[email protected]> wrote:
    >
    >>Hi!
    >>Wolfgang Schwanke wrote:
    >>>Friedrichstraße station was open. It was used as a border checkpoint. You
    >>>could not leave the station without passing East German passport control.
    >>That is not correct.
    >>West-Berliners could connect between one U-Bahn line and 2 S-Bahn
    >>lines without passport control. And they could buy cheap cigarettes
    >>and spirits.
    >
    >
    > So in essence anyone who was in West Berlin could get behind
    > the Iron Curtain undetected?
    >
    > How did they control the return from East Berlin?
    > (I assume it wasn't a free pass to escape from East Germany!)

As I said above they could connect between 2 tunnel lines (1 S and U
each) and one above-ground S-Bahn. This part of the station was not
accessable from East Berlin and could be entered and left only
through passport control.

The main hall of Friedrichstrasse station was divided by steel
plates between the platforms, you could hear the announcements from
the other side and hear the trains, but you could not see the other
side. I used to live in East Berlin, the first time I could go to
the "West Berlin" platform was about 15 years ago.
Continous S-Bahn trains were reintroduced in July 1990.

brgds

--
Gunter Herrmann
Naples, Florida, USA

Mika

"Gregory Morrow" <[email protected]> wrote in message news:<[email protected] link.net>...
    > Wolfgang Schwanke wrote:
    >
    > > Juliana L Holm <[email protected]> wrote
    > > in news:[email protected]:
    > >
    > > > I don't know about Hamburg, but I've been to Berlin and can highly
    > > > recommend it. The U-Bahn in Berlin is great and wide-ranging. We did
    > > > not have a car, although others in our party did, but we never used
    > > > it inside the city. Although the U-Bahn in Berlin is two different
    > > > systems put together after the fall of the wall, it is surprisingly
    > > > homogenous and intact!
    > >
    > > I'm sorry I have to correct you. The U-Bahn is one system. It has
    > > extended across both would-be parts of the city long before anyone knew
    > > there would be a wall (It celebrated its centennial in 2002). That's why
    > > it was so easy to reconnect after the wall came down, and why it seems so
    > > homogenous to you: Because it is.
    >
    >
    > In August 1961 the East Germans sealed up all the West Berlin stops that the
    > East Berlin lines ran through...it was kind of eerie going past these closed
    > stations...
    >
    >
    > > There is a second system, the S-Bahn, which also features on the
    > > transport maps and which is part of the same fare system. It too has
    > > existed long before there was a wall on both future sides, and it too has
    > > been reconnected during the 1990s to the same state it was in before
    > > 1961.
    >
    >
    > Interestingly IIRC during the Cold War years the S - Bahn was administered
    > and run by the East Berlin government - and this *included* the lines in
    > West Berlin. Thus it was boycotted by some in the Western sectors, they did
    > not want to give their hard currency fares to the East Germans.

And therefore nicknamed Ulbricht's Geisterbahn.

M

Lennart Petersen

"Hatunen" <[email protected]> skrev i meddelandet
news:[email protected]...
    > On Wed, 10 Nov 2004 15:09:52 +0000 (UTC), Juliana L Holm
    > <[email protected]> wrote:
    >>I don't know about Hamburg, but I've been to Berlin and can highly
    >>recommend it. The U-Bahn in Berlin is great and wide-ranging. We did
    >>not have a car, although others in our party did, but we never used
    >>it inside the city. Although the U-Bahn in Berlin is two different
    >>systems put together after the fall of the wall, it is surprisingly
    >>homogenous and intact!
    > You mean the U-Bahn is one single system that was split when the
    > wall was built and put back together when the wall came down.
Yes. But both parts were divided as some lines were constructed with a
narrow profile with smaller cars, broad profile cars couldn't , and can't ,
travel over the narrow profile system.
Two U-Bahn lines ,line 6 and 8, run through and under East Berlin with
deserted closed stations only with the exception of line 6 which actually
stopped at Friedrichstrasse where you had the opportunity to transfer to
S-Bahn into West or , after passport control, into East.
It was somewhat mysterious to travel those lines, from West to West over
East.
The trains slowed down somewhat at the abandoned stations being in semi
darkness, but never stopped, and you could see some Volkspolizei with dogs
observing the platforms.

Hatunen

On Wed, 10 Nov 2004 15:09:52 +0000 (UTC), Juliana L Holm
<[email protected]> wrote:

    >I don't know about Hamburg, but I've been to Berlin and can highly
    >recommend it. The U-Bahn in Berlin is great and wide-ranging. We did
    >not have a car, although others in our party did, but we never used
    >it inside the city. Although the U-Bahn in Berlin is two different
    >systems put together after the fall of the wall, it is surprisingly
    >homogenous and intact!

You mean the U-Bahn is one single system that was split when the
wall was built and put back together when the wall came down.


************* DAVE HATUNEN ([email protected]) *************
* Tucson Arizona, out where the cacti grow *
* My typos & mispellings are intentional copyright traps *

Gregory Morrow

Bill Moore wrote:

    > In article <[email protected]>,
    > Gunter Herrmann <[email protected]> wrote:
    > >Hi!
    > >
    > >Wolfgang Schwanke wrote:
    > >
    > >> Friedrichstraße station was open. It was used as a border checkpoint.
You
    > >> could not leave the station without passing East German passport
control.
    > >
    > >That is not correct.
    > >West-Berliners could connect between one U-Bahn line and 2 S-Bahn
    > >lines without passport control. And they could buy cheap cigarettes
    > >and spirits.
    > So in essence anyone who was in West Berlin could get behind
    > the Iron Curtain undetected?


Think of it as a "sterile" area - Westerners could go to the East German
"transit" area of Friedrichstrasse, but unless they actually went through
DDR immigration and customs, they could go right back to the West. In this
transit area the DDR had a number of duty - free "Intershops" selling cheap
smokes, liquor, etc. Some elderly Western pensioners would go to stock up
(to re - sell the stuff), sometimes any "excess" was confiscated by West
Berlin police at the next stop in West Berlin IIRC...


    > How did they control the return from East Berlin?


No "control" necessary if you didn't initially go through DDR border
controls...in any case you didn't leave the station if you just wanted to
cruise over in order to brag to your friends that you'd been behind the
"Iron Curtain"...

Interestingly, the Checkpoint Charlie crossing (for foreigners only, not for
West Berliners or West Germans, they had their own crossing points) had very
lax immigration control on the *western* side. Anyone crossing here from
East to West would of course go through the rigourous DDR border controls,
but upon exiting to the West Berlin side there was no real border controls,
you just walked past the US soldiers guarding Checkpoint Charlie and went on
your way. This was a "gateway" to the West of sorts for many Third
Worlders, they'd hop a cheap Interflug (East German) airlines flight to
Schonefeld Airport in East Berlin, and make their way up to Checkpoint
Charlie - voila! They were in free, rich and prosperous West Berlin without
any hassle at all...this route was also used by some terrorists and spies
and other shady type, too...

Another way for a Westerner to "visit" behind the Iron Curtain was to book a
flight to or from Schonefeld Airport in East Berlin (the fares were cheap
from this airport and lots of resident West Berlin Turks, Middle Easterners,
etc. would take these flights). There were daily transit buses between SXF
(airport) and various termini in West Berlin. You just showed your ticket
and passport, bought a transit visa and boarded the bus. IIRC the bus had
it's own dedicated crossing in the southeast of West Berlin, I think the
street name may have been Sonnenallee...


    > (I assume it wasn't a free pass to escape from East Germany!)

Passengers from the West were strictly separated from passengers on the
Eastern side...no chance of DDR citizens leaving for the West...

--
Best
Greg

Wolfgang Schwanke

[email protected] (Bill Moore) wrote in
news:[email protected]:

    >>That is not correct.
    >>West-Berliners could connect between one U-Bahn line and 2 S-Bahn
    >>lines without passport control. And they could buy cheap cigarettes
    >>and spirits.
    >
    > So in essence anyone who was in West Berlin could get behind
    > the Iron Curtain undetected?

No. The station was physically inside East Berlin, but completely
isolated from the surrounding streets. Think of it as an "enclave" of
Western territory accessible by rail only. (It was not legally an
enclave, but for practical purposes it acted like one).

All trains going there or leaving from it went straight into West Berlin.
Westerners could come in by train, walk the platforms freely, even change
trains without border controls, but the only trains they could board went
back to the west.

Access to actual East Berlin, i.e. on foot into the street, was possible,
but only through East German passport controls installed in the station
building, where the usual procedures applied (i.e. passport, visa,
mandatory exchange). Same for access into the station from street level
East Berlin, also with the usual procedures. I.e. impossible for common
East Germans, because access to the inside of the station was equivalent
with access to West Berlin.

For completeness sake: One of the many platforms in the station was
useable by East Berlin S-Bahn trains and open to the street. This one
platform was "outside" the enclave-like "Western" space of the station.
The only way from this "Eastern" platform to one of the platforms where
West Berlin trains called was through passport control, i.e. impossible
for Easterners. The wall that separated this one platform from the rest
of the station was made of reinforced steel. It was like an incarnation
of the Berlin Wall far away from the actual border, in a railway station.
It's been removed now.

So the station was just a geographical curiosity, but no loophole for
either side. East Germany's border control system was bizarre and
inhumane, but you can't blame them for not thinking it through in every
detail.

Regards

--
Ceci n'est pas un e-mail.

http://www.wschwanke.de/ usenet_20031215 (AT) wschwanke (DOT) de

Martin Bienwald

Gregory Morrow schrieb:

    > Interestingly IIRC during the Cold War years the S - Bahn was administered
    > and run by the East Berlin government - and this *included* the lines in
    > West Berlin.

This was the case until 1983. Following an agreement between the West Berlin
senate and the East Berlin railway administration, the West Berlin transit
operator BVG took over S-Bahn operations in the West on January 9, 1984.

    > Thus it was boycotted by some in the Western sectors, they did
    > not want to give their hard currency fares to the East Germans. The U-Bahn
    > in the West was also in somewhat of a state of shabbiness/disrepair...

Well, that's nothing the East can be blamed for - the U-Bahn had been run
by BVG all the time.

... Martin

nitram

On Fri, 12 Nov 2004 16:29:15 +0000 (UTC), Martin Bienwald
<[email protected]> wrote:


Martin,
Is the really hot German mustard Düsseldorfer senf? Can you recommend
a brand?
--
Martin

Wolfgang Schwanke

"Gregory Morrow" <[email protected]> wrote
in news:[email protected] ink.net:

    > Interestingly, the Checkpoint Charlie crossing (for foreigners only,
    > not for West Berliners or West Germans, they had their own crossing
    > points) had very lax immigration control on the *western* side.
    > Anyone crossing here from East to West would of course go through the
    > rigourous DDR border controls, but upon exiting to the West Berlin
    > side there was no real border controls, you just walked past the US
    > soldiers guarding Checkpoint Charlie and went on your way.

There were no western border controls anywhere on the part of the Berlin
Wall inside the city (as opposed to the part that separated West Berlin
from surrounding GDR), as the Western side did not consider inner Berlin
boundary an international border. Checkpoint Charlie is an exception of
sorts, as it was a "Checkpoint" at all. But its main purpose was to show
presence, and to check on Allied military personell on duty. They were
mostly not interested in civilian travellers.

    > There were daily
    > transit buses between SXF (airport) and various termini in West
    > Berlin. You just showed your ticket and passport, bought a transit
    > visa and boarded the bus. IIRC the bus had it's own dedicated
    > crossing in the southeast of West Berlin, I think the street name may
    > have been Sonnenallee...

Waltersdorfer Chaussee. Sonnenallee was also a border crossing, but not
towards SXF.

Regards

--
Wir wolln unsern alten Kaiser Wilhelm wiederham!

http://www.wschwanke.de/ usenet_20031215 (AT) wschwanke (DOT) de

Wolfgang Schwanke

[email protected] (Bill Moore) wrote in
news:[email protected]:

    > there are harbor cruises. Also, Hamburg has a nice restaurant
    > (Wedel stop on the S-Bahn) where you can watch the ships
    > enter and leave the port of Hamburg as the national anthem
    > of each ship's country is played. It's a bit touristy and definitely
    > not "exotic entertainment" but I found it a nice way to relax ;-)

"Willkommhöft": http://www.willkommhoeft.de/ :)

--
Wir wolln unsern alten Kaiser Wilhelm wiederham!

http://www.wschwanke.de/ usenet_20031215 (AT) wschwanke (DOT) de

Frank F. Matthews

Thank you for the explanation of the situation at Friedrichstraße
station. I had always wondered about the experience leaving East Berlin
when, as far as I could tell, after clearing passport controls I was
mixing with locals on the platform before leaving for West Berlin. Your
explanation helps me understand my experience. I wasn't paying much
attention at the time and only wondered about it afterward.

Gregory Morrow wrote:

    > Bill Moore wrote:

    >>In article <[email protected]>,
    >>Gunter Herrmann <[email protected]> wrote:

    >>>Hi!

    >>>Wolfgang Schwanke wrote:

    >>>>Friedrichstraße station was open. It was used as a border checkpoint.
    >>>>You
    >>>>could not leave the station without passing East German passport
    >>>> control.

    >>>That is not correct.
    >>>West-Berliners could connect between one U-Bahn line and 2 S-Bahn
    >>>lines without passport control. And they could buy cheap cigarettes
    >>>and spirits.

    >>So in essence anyone who was in West Berlin could get behind
    >>the Iron Curtain undetected?

    > Think of it as a "sterile" area - Westerners could go to the East German
    > "transit" area of Friedrichstrasse, but unless they actually went through
    > DDR immigration and customs, they could go right back to the West. In this
    > transit area the DDR had a number of duty - free "Intershops" selling cheap
    > smokes, liquor, etc. Some elderly Western pensioners would go to stock up
    > (to re - sell the stuff), sometimes any "excess" was confiscated by West
    > Berlin police at the next stop in West Berlin IIRC...

    >>How did they control the return from East Berlin?

    > No "control" necessary if you didn't initially go through DDR border
    > controls...in any case you didn't leave the station if you just wanted to
    > cruise over in order to brag to your friends that you'd been behind the
    > "Iron Curtain"...

    > Interestingly, the Checkpoint Charlie crossing (for foreigners only, not for
    > West Berliners or West Germans, they had their own crossing points) had very
    > lax immigration control on the *western* side. Anyone crossing here from
    > East to West would of course go through the rigourous DDR border controls,
    > but upon exiting to the West Berlin side there was no real border controls,
    > you just walked past the US soldiers guarding Checkpoint Charlie and went on
    > your way. This was a "gateway" to the West of sorts for many Third
    > Worlders, they'd hop a cheap Interflug (East German) airlines flight to
    > Schonefeld Airport in East Berlin, and make their way up to Checkpoint
    > Charlie - voila! They were in free, rich and prosperous West Berlin without
    > any hassle at all...this route was also used by some terrorists and spies
    > and other shady type, too...

    > Another way for a Westerner to "visit" behind the Iron Curtain was to book a
    > flight to or from Schonefeld Airport in East Berlin (the fares were cheap
    > from this airport and lots of resident West Berlin Turks, Middle Easterners,
    > etc. would take these flights). There were daily transit buses between SXF
    > (airport) and various termini in West Berlin. You just showed your ticket
    > and passport, bought a transit visa and boarded the bus. IIRC the bus had
    > it's own dedicated crossing in the southeast of West Berlin, I think the
    > street name may have been Sonnenallee...

    >>(I assume it wasn't a free pass to escape from East Germany!)

    > Passengers from the West were strictly separated from passengers on the
    > Eastern side...no chance of DDR citizens leaving for the West...