Fresh tests link Turin Shroud to era of Jesus
Jan 27th 2005, 2:21 pm
#1
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Fresh tests link Turin Shroud to era of Jesus
Fresh tests link Turin Shroud to era of Jesus
By Bruce Johnston in Rome
(Filed: 28/01/2005)
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/main...01/28/wshroud2
8.xml&sSheet=/news/2005/01/28/ixworld.html
The Turin Shroud is far older than carbon dating suggests and may
indeed date to biblical times as believers claim, a study has found.
The findings may revive hopes that the cloth, far from being a medieval
fake, is a miraculous recording of the face of Jesus after the
Crucifixion.
*
The Turin Shroud: 1,300 to 3,000 years old
Raymond Rogers, of the University of California's Los Alamos
Laboratory, argues that carbon-dating tests on the shroud in 1988 were
"invalid" because they were performed on a replacement section rather
than the original linen.
His own exhaustive tests, most of them chemical analyses of fibres he
says were taken from the original linen, instead reveal its age to be
from 1,300 to 3,000 years old.
Many Roman Catholics, who believe the cloth bears the image of Jesus
after it was used to wrap his body when he was taken from the Cross,
were incensed by the results of the first scientific tests.
Researchers, working separately in Arizona, Cambridge and Zurich,
carried out tests which concluded that the shroud could be dated only
to between AD 1261 and 1390, and was therefore likely to be a deception
devised in the Middle Ages.
Even the then cardinal of Turin, Anastasio Alberto Ballestrero, was
forced to concede that the garment was probably a hoax.
However, writing in the journal Thermochimica Acta, Mr Rogers explains
that fibres from the original linen showed no trace of a chemical
called vanillin.
Vanillin is produced by the thermal decomposition of lignin, a chemical
compound found in plant material such as flax. Levels of lignin in
material such as linen fall over time.
Had the shroud been produced in medieval times it would still contain
vanillin.
Mr Rogers, a member of the original Shroud of Turin Research Project
which first began studying the linen in 1978, wrote of his surprise at
the findings of the radio-carbon dating a decade later.
After re-examining the data, he concluded that the sample used for
dating in 1988, and the other 32 samples he had personally taken of the
linen fibre from all over the four-yard shroud, using adhesive tape,
were not the same.
Chemical kinetics, analytical chemistry, and other tests, including
some for cotton content, proved, he said, that the "radio-carbon sample
was not part of the original cloth", and so was "invalid in determining
the age of the shroud".
According to the academic, the cloth used in the carbon dating was
probably woven into the shroud during repairs in late medieval times.
The linen sheet was damaged in several fires after its existence was
first recorded in France in 1357, including in a church blaze in 1532.
It was also been treated with alizarin dye, available in Italy only
after the 1300s, and with a plant gum to help match the original's
sepia colour.
By Bruce Johnston in Rome
(Filed: 28/01/2005)
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/main...01/28/wshroud2
8.xml&sSheet=/news/2005/01/28/ixworld.html
The Turin Shroud is far older than carbon dating suggests and may
indeed date to biblical times as believers claim, a study has found.
The findings may revive hopes that the cloth, far from being a medieval
fake, is a miraculous recording of the face of Jesus after the
Crucifixion.
*
The Turin Shroud: 1,300 to 3,000 years old
Raymond Rogers, of the University of California's Los Alamos
Laboratory, argues that carbon-dating tests on the shroud in 1988 were
"invalid" because they were performed on a replacement section rather
than the original linen.
His own exhaustive tests, most of them chemical analyses of fibres he
says were taken from the original linen, instead reveal its age to be
from 1,300 to 3,000 years old.
Many Roman Catholics, who believe the cloth bears the image of Jesus
after it was used to wrap his body when he was taken from the Cross,
were incensed by the results of the first scientific tests.
Researchers, working separately in Arizona, Cambridge and Zurich,
carried out tests which concluded that the shroud could be dated only
to between AD 1261 and 1390, and was therefore likely to be a deception
devised in the Middle Ages.
Even the then cardinal of Turin, Anastasio Alberto Ballestrero, was
forced to concede that the garment was probably a hoax.
However, writing in the journal Thermochimica Acta, Mr Rogers explains
that fibres from the original linen showed no trace of a chemical
called vanillin.
Vanillin is produced by the thermal decomposition of lignin, a chemical
compound found in plant material such as flax. Levels of lignin in
material such as linen fall over time.
Had the shroud been produced in medieval times it would still contain
vanillin.
Mr Rogers, a member of the original Shroud of Turin Research Project
which first began studying the linen in 1978, wrote of his surprise at
the findings of the radio-carbon dating a decade later.
After re-examining the data, he concluded that the sample used for
dating in 1988, and the other 32 samples he had personally taken of the
linen fibre from all over the four-yard shroud, using adhesive tape,
were not the same.
Chemical kinetics, analytical chemistry, and other tests, including
some for cotton content, proved, he said, that the "radio-carbon sample
was not part of the original cloth", and so was "invalid in determining
the age of the shroud".
According to the academic, the cloth used in the carbon dating was
probably woven into the shroud during repairs in late medieval times.
The linen sheet was damaged in several fires after its existence was
first recorded in France in 1357, including in a church blaze in 1532.
It was also been treated with alizarin dye, available in Italy only
after the 1300s, and with a plant gum to help match the original's
sepia colour.
Jan 27th 2005, 3:28 pm
#2
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Re: Fresh tests link Turin Shroud to era of Jesus
"Go Fig" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:270120051921416299%[email protected]...
> Fresh tests link Turin Shroud to era of Jesus
> By Bruce Johnston in Rome
Yeah, Mr. Rogers here has the right fibres - the ones that a bevy of world
renowned researchers used, under the scrutiny of the church were
wrong/incomplete/the result of a 700 year old weave job.
What does Mr. Rogers think about Elvis, Marilyn and Kennedy?
news:270120051921416299%[email protected]...
> Fresh tests link Turin Shroud to era of Jesus
> By Bruce Johnston in Rome
Yeah, Mr. Rogers here has the right fibres - the ones that a bevy of world
renowned researchers used, under the scrutiny of the church were
wrong/incomplete/the result of a 700 year old weave job.
What does Mr. Rogers think about Elvis, Marilyn and Kennedy?
Jan 27th 2005, 4:03 pm
#3
Guest
Posts: n/a
Re: Fresh tests link Turin Shroud to era of Jesus...OR BEFORE!
Go Fig <[email protected]> wrote:
> Fresh tests link Turin Shroud to era of Jesus
> By Bruce Johnston in Rome
> (Filed: 28/01/2005)
>
> http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/main...01/28/wshroud2
> 8.xml&sSheet=/news/2005/01/28/ixworld.html
Well, that's one interpretation of the story. But there are others. For
example, the BBC: 'Turin Shroud could be up to 3,000 years old,
scientist says'.
I can hear it now (and it sounds like a Monty Python routine):
'Well...(mutter mutter)...I suppose we have to _wrap_ him in something,
don't we?'
'Oh, I've got this thousand-year-old sheet just lying around. I suppose
we could use that'.
cheers,
Henry
> Fresh tests link Turin Shroud to era of Jesus
> By Bruce Johnston in Rome
> (Filed: 28/01/2005)
>
> http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/main...01/28/wshroud2
> 8.xml&sSheet=/news/2005/01/28/ixworld.html
Well, that's one interpretation of the story. But there are others. For
example, the BBC: 'Turin Shroud could be up to 3,000 years old,
scientist says'.
I can hear it now (and it sounds like a Monty Python routine):
'Well...(mutter mutter)...I suppose we have to _wrap_ him in something,
don't we?'
'Oh, I've got this thousand-year-old sheet just lying around. I suppose
we could use that'.
cheers,
Henry
Jan 27th 2005, 8:00 pm
#4
Guest
Posts: n/a
Re: Fresh tests link Turin Shroud to era of Jesus
On Thu, 27 Jan 2005 23:28:14 -0500, "Claim Guy"
<[email protected]> wrote:
>"Go Fig" <[email protected]> wrote in message
>news:270120051921416299%[email protected]...
>> Fresh tests link Turin Shroud to era of Jesus
>> By Bruce Johnston in Rome
>Yeah, Mr. Rogers here has the right fibres - the ones that a bevy of world
>renowned researchers used, under the scrutiny of the church were
>wrong/incomplete/the result of a 700 year old weave job.
>What does Mr. Rogers think about Elvis, Marilyn and Kennedy?
They lack moral fibre.
--
Martin
<[email protected]> wrote:
>"Go Fig" <[email protected]> wrote in message
>news:270120051921416299%[email protected]...
>> Fresh tests link Turin Shroud to era of Jesus
>> By Bruce Johnston in Rome
>Yeah, Mr. Rogers here has the right fibres - the ones that a bevy of world
>renowned researchers used, under the scrutiny of the church were
>wrong/incomplete/the result of a 700 year old weave job.
>What does Mr. Rogers think about Elvis, Marilyn and Kennedy?
They lack moral fibre.
--
Martin
Jan 27th 2005, 8:23 pm
#5
Guest
Posts: n/a
Re: Fresh tests link Turin Shroud to era of Jesus...OR BEFORE!
On Fri, 28 Jan 2005 07:03:28 +0200, [email protected] (Henry) wrote:
>Go Fig <[email protected]> wrote:
>> Fresh tests link Turin Shroud to era of Jesus
>> By Bruce Johnston in Rome
>> (Filed: 28/01/2005)
>>
>> http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/main...01/28/wshroud2
>> 8.xml&sSheet=/news/2005/01/28/ixworld.html
>Well, that's one interpretation of the story. But there are others. For
>example, the BBC: 'Turin Shroud could be up to 3,000 years old,
>scientist says'.
Spookily precise or what?
>I can hear it now (and it sounds like a Monty Python routine):
>'Well...(mutter mutter)...I suppose we have to _wrap_ him in something,
>don't we?'
>'Oh, I've got this thousand-year-old sheet just lying around. I suppose
>we could use that'.
LOL
--
Martin
>Go Fig <[email protected]> wrote:
>> Fresh tests link Turin Shroud to era of Jesus
>> By Bruce Johnston in Rome
>> (Filed: 28/01/2005)
>>
>> http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/main...01/28/wshroud2
>> 8.xml&sSheet=/news/2005/01/28/ixworld.html
>Well, that's one interpretation of the story. But there are others. For
>example, the BBC: 'Turin Shroud could be up to 3,000 years old,
>scientist says'.
Spookily precise or what?
>I can hear it now (and it sounds like a Monty Python routine):
>'Well...(mutter mutter)...I suppose we have to _wrap_ him in something,
>don't we?'
>'Oh, I've got this thousand-year-old sheet just lying around. I suppose
>we could use that'.
LOL
--
Martin
Jan 28th 2005, 1:11 am
#6
Guest
Posts: n/a
Re: Fresh tests link Turin Shroud to era of Jesus
"nitram" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> >What does Mr. Rogers think about Elvis, Marilyn and Kennedy?
> They lack moral fibre.
Very nice!
news:[email protected]...
> >What does Mr. Rogers think about Elvis, Marilyn and Kennedy?
> They lack moral fibre.
Very nice!
Jan 28th 2005, 6:26 am
#7
Guest
Posts: n/a
Re: Fresh tests link Turin Shroud to era of Jesus
In article <270120051921416299%[email protected]>, Go Fig <[email protected]> wrote:
> Fresh tests link Turin Shroud to era of Jesus
>By Bruce Johnston in Rome
>(Filed: 28/01/2005)
>http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/main...01/28/wshroud2
>8.xml&sSheet=/news/2005/01/28/ixworld.html
>The Turin Shroud is far older than carbon dating suggests and may
>indeed date to biblical times as believers claim, a study has found.
>The findings may revive hopes that the cloth, far from being a medieval
>fake, is a miraculous recording of the face of Jesus after the
>Crucifixion.
The question is not the age of the cloth; it's the age and provenance of
the images on it.
--
* PAUL K. BRANDON [email protected] *
* Psychology Dept Minnesota State University *
* 23 Armstrong Hall, Mankato, MN 56001 ph 507-389-6217 *
* http://www.mnsu.edu/dept/psych/welcome.html *
> Fresh tests link Turin Shroud to era of Jesus
>By Bruce Johnston in Rome
>(Filed: 28/01/2005)
>http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/main...01/28/wshroud2
>8.xml&sSheet=/news/2005/01/28/ixworld.html
>The Turin Shroud is far older than carbon dating suggests and may
>indeed date to biblical times as believers claim, a study has found.
>The findings may revive hopes that the cloth, far from being a medieval
>fake, is a miraculous recording of the face of Jesus after the
>Crucifixion.
The question is not the age of the cloth; it's the age and provenance of
the images on it.
--
* PAUL K. BRANDON [email protected] *
* Psychology Dept Minnesota State University *
* 23 Armstrong Hall, Mankato, MN 56001 ph 507-389-6217 *
* http://www.mnsu.edu/dept/psych/welcome.html *
Jan 28th 2005, 8:49 am
#8
Guest
Posts: n/a
Re: Fresh tests link Turin Shroud to era of Jesus
On Fri, 28 Jan 2005 13:26:48 -0600, [email protected] (Paul
Brandon) wrote:
>In article <270120051921416299%[email protected]>, Go Fig <[email protected]> wrote:
>> Fresh tests link Turin Shroud to era of Jesus
>>By Bruce Johnston in Rome
>>(Filed: 28/01/2005)
>>http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/main...01/28/wshroud2
>>8.xml&sSheet=/news/2005/01/28/ixworld.html
>>The Turin Shroud is far older than carbon dating suggests and may
>>indeed date to biblical times as believers claim, a study has found.
>>The findings may revive hopes that the cloth, far from being a medieval
>>fake, is a miraculous recording of the face of Jesus after the
>>Crucifixion.
>The question is not the age of the cloth; it's the age and provenance of
>the images on it.
Unless you believe in miracles, the age is limited by the age of the
cloth.
The images have no provenance.
--
Martin
Brandon) wrote:
>In article <270120051921416299%[email protected]>, Go Fig <[email protected]> wrote:
>> Fresh tests link Turin Shroud to era of Jesus
>>By Bruce Johnston in Rome
>>(Filed: 28/01/2005)
>>http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/main...01/28/wshroud2
>>8.xml&sSheet=/news/2005/01/28/ixworld.html
>>The Turin Shroud is far older than carbon dating suggests and may
>>indeed date to biblical times as believers claim, a study has found.
>>The findings may revive hopes that the cloth, far from being a medieval
>>fake, is a miraculous recording of the face of Jesus after the
>>Crucifixion.
>The question is not the age of the cloth; it's the age and provenance of
>the images on it.
Unless you believe in miracles, the age is limited by the age of the
cloth.
The images have no provenance.
--
Martin
Jan 29th 2005, 7:22 am
#9
Guest
Posts: n/a
Re: Fresh tests link Turin Shroud to era of Jesus
In article <[email protected]>, nitram
<[email protected]> wrote:
>On Fri, 28 Jan 2005 13:26:48 -0600, [email protected] (Paul
>Brandon) wrote:
>>In article <270120051921416299%[email protected]>, Go Fig <[email protected]> wrote:
>>> Fresh tests link Turin Shroud to era of Jesus
>>>By Bruce Johnston in Rome
>>>(Filed: 28/01/2005)
>>>http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/main...01/28/wshroud2
>>>8.xml&sSheet=/news/2005/01/28/ixworld.html
>>>The Turin Shroud is far older than carbon dating suggests and may
>>>indeed date to biblical times as believers claim, a study has found.
>>>The findings may revive hopes that the cloth, far from being a medieval
>>>fake, is a miraculous recording of the face of Jesus after the
>>>Crucifixion.
>>The question is not the age of the cloth; it's the age and provenance of
>>the images on it.
>Unless you believe in miracles, the age is limited by the age of the
>cloth.
But, the cloth could still be 2000 years old, but the image only 500.
>The images have no provenance.
??
'Provenance' means source or origin.
--
* PAUL K. BRANDON [email protected] *
* Psychology Dept Minnesota State University *
* 23 Armstrong Hall, Mankato, MN 56001 ph 507-389-6217 *
* http://www.mnsu.edu/dept/psych/welcome.html *
<[email protected]> wrote:
>On Fri, 28 Jan 2005 13:26:48 -0600, [email protected] (Paul
>Brandon) wrote:
>>In article <270120051921416299%[email protected]>, Go Fig <[email protected]> wrote:
>>> Fresh tests link Turin Shroud to era of Jesus
>>>By Bruce Johnston in Rome
>>>(Filed: 28/01/2005)
>>>http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/main...01/28/wshroud2
>>>8.xml&sSheet=/news/2005/01/28/ixworld.html
>>>The Turin Shroud is far older than carbon dating suggests and may
>>>indeed date to biblical times as believers claim, a study has found.
>>>The findings may revive hopes that the cloth, far from being a medieval
>>>fake, is a miraculous recording of the face of Jesus after the
>>>Crucifixion.
>>The question is not the age of the cloth; it's the age and provenance of
>>the images on it.
>Unless you believe in miracles, the age is limited by the age of the
>cloth.
But, the cloth could still be 2000 years old, but the image only 500.
>The images have no provenance.
??
'Provenance' means source or origin.
--
* PAUL K. BRANDON [email protected] *
* Psychology Dept Minnesota State University *
* 23 Armstrong Hall, Mankato, MN 56001 ph 507-389-6217 *
* http://www.mnsu.edu/dept/psych/welcome.html *
Jan 29th 2005, 9:35 pm
#10
Guest
Posts: n/a
Re: Fresh tests link Turin Shroud to era of Jesus
On Sat, 29 Jan 2005 14:22:59 -0600, [email protected] (Paul
Brandon) wrote:
>In article <[email protected]>, nitram
><[email protected]> wrote:
>>On Fri, 28 Jan 2005 13:26:48 -0600, [email protected] (Paul
>>Brandon) wrote:
>>>In article <270120051921416299%[email protected]>, Go Fig <[email protected]> wrote:
>>>> Fresh tests link Turin Shroud to era of Jesus
>>>>By Bruce Johnston in Rome
>>>>(Filed: 28/01/2005)
>>>>http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/main...01/28/wshroud2
>>>>8.xml&sSheet=/news/2005/01/28/ixworld.html
>>>>The Turin Shroud is far older than carbon dating suggests and may
>>>>indeed date to biblical times as believers claim, a study has found.
>>>>The findings may revive hopes that the cloth, far from being a medieval
>>>>fake, is a miraculous recording of the face of Jesus after the
>>>>Crucifixion.
>>>The question is not the age of the cloth; it's the age and provenance of
>>>the images on it.
>>Unless you believe in miracles, the age is limited by the age of the
>>cloth.
>But, the cloth could still be 2000 years old, but the image only 500.
It could be three thousand years old.
How odd that they managed to radio carbon date a patch instead of the
original material.
>>The images have no provenance.
>??
>'Provenance' means source or origin.
Nobody knows it's source or origin.
--
Martin
Brandon) wrote:
>In article <[email protected]>, nitram
><[email protected]> wrote:
>>On Fri, 28 Jan 2005 13:26:48 -0600, [email protected] (Paul
>>Brandon) wrote:
>>>In article <270120051921416299%[email protected]>, Go Fig <[email protected]> wrote:
>>>> Fresh tests link Turin Shroud to era of Jesus
>>>>By Bruce Johnston in Rome
>>>>(Filed: 28/01/2005)
>>>>http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/main...01/28/wshroud2
>>>>8.xml&sSheet=/news/2005/01/28/ixworld.html
>>>>The Turin Shroud is far older than carbon dating suggests and may
>>>>indeed date to biblical times as believers claim, a study has found.
>>>>The findings may revive hopes that the cloth, far from being a medieval
>>>>fake, is a miraculous recording of the face of Jesus after the
>>>>Crucifixion.
>>>The question is not the age of the cloth; it's the age and provenance of
>>>the images on it.
>>Unless you believe in miracles, the age is limited by the age of the
>>cloth.
>But, the cloth could still be 2000 years old, but the image only 500.
It could be three thousand years old.
How odd that they managed to radio carbon date a patch instead of the
original material.
>>The images have no provenance.
>??
>'Provenance' means source or origin.
Nobody knows it's source or origin.
--
Martin
