Icono Clast

B Vaughan wrote:
    > I, unlike most Americans, almost never borrowed money for any
    > reason. I once used a loan to buy a new car, but regretted it and
    > thereafter I always bought used cars and paid cash. I borrowed to
    > buy my house, and that was the only outstanding debt I had at the
    > time I moved to Italy.

I, too, have been pretty-much debt free most of my life. I, too, once
got a loan for a car but I paid it off quickly. I currently have a
mortgage but I easily could retire it by writing a check. When
m'mother dies (that she hope is soon), I'll get an amount almost
equal to the amount of the mortgage. that's when I'll pay it off. The
result will be a about a 12.5% increase in my discretionary income.
__________________________________________________ _________________
A San Franciscan in 47.452 mile² San Francisco.
< http://geocities.com/dancefest/ >-< http://geocities.com/iconoc/ >
ICQ: < http://wwp.mirabilis.com/19098103 > ---> IClast at SFbay Net

Icono Clast

Martin wrote:
    > Icono Clast wrote:
    >> In the USA, it's rather difficult to pay a credit card bill with
    >> cash.
    >
    > If you haven't a credit card it's also difficult to get a credit
    > card bill.
    >
    > I have a credit card but rarely use it. Like Italians I don't like
    > giving 15-27% of what I spend on purchases to a credit card
    > company.

I've had credit cards since their post-Diner's Club and Carte Blanche
inception, approximately fort-five years. In that time, I doubt that
I've paid as much as $100 in fees, interest, and late charges. I've
paid none in at least twenty years.

    > I did wonder why Barbara didn't use her card to buy the tickets
    > after her students had paid for the trip with cash.

Me too.


    > Go Fig wrote:
    >> .... I get 26 days to use someone else's money at no additional
    >> cost.

Martin wrote:
    > Good for you.

That's pennies per month but they compound. Ben Franklin knew that.
But, then, he didn't have a credit card.

    > How much do you pay for the card? How much is the price marked up
    > by the retailer? 5.5% by those who accept Amex cards.

So avoid those merchants or us a scam a friend of mine does: When he
makes an expensive purchase, he presents an American Express card
saying something like "Take this or give me 10% off for cash".


S Viemeister wrote:
    > Many US cards charge no annual fee, and AFAIK it's illegal (in the
    > US) to charge more for a credit card sale than any other method
    > of payment. >If you pay your bill in full every month, you have a
    > great deal of convenience at no additional cost.

Yup.


Martin wrote:
    > Mike Lane <[email protected]> wrote:
    >> I have 3 credit cards and pay no fee for any of them.
    >
    > Maybe it's a daft question, but why do you need three?

I have two with closing dates separated by 15. Increases the float.
Three? I look forward to the explanation.

    > It is worrying that people don't know how much credit cards are
    > costing them.

Indeed.

The bill was late to arrive. I called to ask "How much do I owe you?"
"Twenty dollars." "That's impossible! It couldn't possibly be that
little." "That's all you have to pay." "That's not what I asked: I
asked 'How much do I owe you?'" "Do you mean the total amount?" "Uh,
yes." Duh-uh.


Luca Logi wrote:
    > I think it is a sort of diffidence (what about not taking cash
    > with you, and discovering the hard way that on the other side of
    > the ocean >your ATM card does not work?)

Happened to me. Twice. First in London; two years later in Paris.
Related in this forum cuppla years ago.
__________________________________________________ _________________
A San Franciscan in (where else?) San Francisco.
< http://geocities.com/dancefest/ >-< http://geocities.com/iconoc/ >
ICQ: < http://wwp.mirabilis.com/19098103 > ---> IClast at SFbay Net

Mike Lane

On Tue, 26 Jul 2005 21:45:22 +0100, Martin wrote
(in article <[email protected]>):

    > On Tue, 26 Jul 2005 17:03:21 GMT, Mike Lane <[email protected]> wrote:
    >
    >
    >> I have 3 credit cards and pay no fee for any of them.
    >
    > Maybe it's a daft question, but why do you need three?
    >
I find it convenient to keep different kinds of transaction separate. For
example I keep one card only for use abroad, so all my travelling expenses
are easily identified.

--
Mike Lane (UK North Yorkshire)
To contact me replace invalid with mike underscore lane

Go Fig

In article <[email protected]>, Martin
<[email protected]> wrote:

    > On Wed, 27 Jul 2005 08:59:25 +0200, B Vaughan<[email protected]> wrote:
    >
    > >On Tue, 26 Jul 2005 15:35:35 +0200, [email protected] (Luca Logi) wrote:
    > >
    > >>Not a bad idea, being reluctant to borrow money to finance everyday
    > >>life. It is expensive, and induces you to spend more than you can really
    > >>afford. No wonder we receive so many fliers in the mail trying to sell
    > >>us revolving credit cards (in Italy, those credit cards offering large
    > >>anticipations against interest): it is a sort of financial dope dealing.
    > >
    > >I agree absolutely. I, unlike most Americans, almost never borrowed
    > >money for any reason. I once used a loan to buy a new car, but
    > >regretted it and thereafter I always bought used cars and paid cash.

For years now, new car loans, from the manufacturer, can be got at
about the rate of inflation (or lower) with good credit... it would be
a bad decision not to take advantage of this free money.

jay
Wed Jul 27, 2005
mailto:[email protected]



    > >I
    > >borrowed to buy my house, and that was the only outstanding debt I had
    > >at the time I moved to Italy.
    >
    > Me too!

Chancellor Of The Duchy Of Besses O' Th' Barn And

Martin <[email protected]> wrote:

[]
    > If you look at this article from the Daily Telegraph
    > http://tinyurl.com/da3au you will see that it is much more than
    > that.It is worrying that people don't know how much credit cards are
    > costing them.

A lot of shops actually have notices (albeit in small print) near their
tills indicating the costs of using maestro and credit cards- maestro is
typically less.

--
David Horne- www.davidhorne.net
usenet (at) davidhorne (dot) co (dot) uk

Martin

On Wed, 27 Jul 2005 05:15:57 -0700, Go Fig <[email protected]> wrote:

    >In article <[email protected]>, Martin
    ><[email protected]> wrote:
    >> On Wed, 27 Jul 2005 08:59:25 +0200, B Vaughan<[email protected]> wrote:
    >>
    >> >On Tue, 26 Jul 2005 15:35:35 +0200, [email protected] (Luca Logi) wrote:
    >> >
    >> >>Not a bad idea, being reluctant to borrow money to finance everyday
    >> >>life. It is expensive, and induces you to spend more than you can really
    >> >>afford. No wonder we receive so many fliers in the mail trying to sell
    >> >>us revolving credit cards (in Italy, those credit cards offering large
    >> >>anticipations against interest): it is a sort of financial dope dealing.
    >> >
    >> >I agree absolutely. I, unlike most Americans, almost never borrowed
    >> >money for any reason. I once used a loan to buy a new car, but
    >> >regretted it and thereafter I always bought used cars and paid cash.
    >For years now, new car loans, from the manufacturer, can be got at
    >about the rate of inflation (or lower) with good credit... it would be
    >a bad decision not to take advantage of this free money.

Not in this part of the world.
--
Martin

Martin

On Wed, 27 Jul 2005 12:11:58 GMT, Mike Lane <[email protected]> wrote:

    >On Tue, 26 Jul 2005 21:45:22 +0100, Martin wrote
    >(in article <[email protected]>):
    >> On Tue, 26 Jul 2005 17:03:21 GMT, Mike Lane <[email protected]> wrote:
    >>
    >>
    >>> I have 3 credit cards and pay no fee for any of them.
    >>
    >> Maybe it's a daft question, but why do you need three?
    >>
    >I find it convenient to keep different kinds of transaction separate. For
    >example I keep one card only for use abroad, so all my travelling expenses
    >are easily identified.

and the other one?

--
Martin

B Vaughan

On Wed, 27 Jul 2005 05:15:57 -0700, Go Fig <[email protected]> wrote:

    >For years now, new car loans, from the manufacturer, can be got at
    >about the rate of inflation (or lower) with good credit... it would be
    >a bad decision not to take advantage of this free money.

My reason for not buying new cars after my one initial experience is
that I drove very little. I walked or biked to my office, used the car
maybe once or twice in the week for visiting friends or shopping, and
took about one vacation each year with the car. My transportation
costs with a new car loan (depreciation, extra insurance required by
the lender) ended up being more than it would have cost me to take a
taxi everywhere locally.

By paying cash for an older car, I could eliminate every type of
insurance except liability and the depreciation was minimal. Even so,
my insurance cost was higher most years than gasoline, maintenance and
repairs combined.
--
Barbara Vaughan
My email address is my first initial followed by my surname at libero dot it
I answer travel questions only in the newsgroup

EvelynVogtGamble

B Vaughan wrote:

    > On Tue, 26 Jul 2005 15:35:35 +0200, [email protected] (Luca Logi) wrote:
    >
    >
    >>Not a bad idea, being reluctant to borrow money to finance everyday
    >>life. It is expensive, and induces you to spend more than you can really
    >>afford. No wonder we receive so many fliers in the mail trying to sell
    >>us revolving credit cards (in Italy, those credit cards offering large
    >>anticipations against interest): it is a sort of financial dope dealing.
    >
    >
    > I agree absolutely. I, unlike most Americans, almost never borrowed
    > money for any reason. I once used a loan to buy a new car, but
    > regretted it and thereafter I always bought used cars and paid cash. I
    > borrowed to buy my house, and that was the only outstanding debt I had
    > at the time I moved to Italy.

The adage about being "penny wise and pound foolish" seems
to apply here. I was raised on the "cash only" ethic, too.
Consequently, I missed the opportunity to get to Europe
when I was an aspiring young singer, and have regretted it
for most of my life. Many young American singers of my
generation WERE willing to take the chance, and achieved
successful careers in Europe at a time in the post-war world
when European opera houses were desperate for young singers.
Few of them became international stars, but they made
their living doing what they most wanted to do. (A baritone
of my acquaintance also married the mayor's daughter in the
German town where he signed his first contract.)

Martin

On Wed, 27 Jul 2005 08:51:30 -0700, "EvelynVogtGamble(Divamanque)"
<[email protected]> wrote:

    >B Vaughan wrote:
    >> On Tue, 26 Jul 2005 15:35:35 +0200, [email protected] (Luca Logi) wrote:
    >>
    >>
    >>>Not a bad idea, being reluctant to borrow money to finance everyday
    >>>life. It is expensive, and induces you to spend more than you can really
    >>>afford. No wonder we receive so many fliers in the mail trying to sell
    >>>us revolving credit cards (in Italy, those credit cards offering large
    >>>anticipations against interest): it is a sort of financial dope dealing.
    >>
    >>
    >> I agree absolutely. I, unlike most Americans, almost never borrowed
    >> money for any reason. I once used a loan to buy a new car, but
    >> regretted it and thereafter I always bought used cars and paid cash. I
    >> borrowed to buy my house, and that was the only outstanding debt I had
    >> at the time I moved to Italy.
    >The adage about being "penny wise and pound foolish" seems
    >to apply here. I was raised on the "cash only" ethic, too.

Me too! I think it's a good ethic.

    > Consequently, I missed the opportunity to get to Europe
    >when I was an aspiring young singer, and have regretted it
    >for most of my life. Many young American singers of my
    >generation WERE willing to take the chance, and achieved
    >successful careers in Europe at a time in the post-war world
    >when European opera houses were desperate for young singers.
    > Few of them became international stars, but they made
    >their living doing what they most wanted to do. (A baritone
    >of my acquaintance also married the mayor's daughter in the
    >German town where he signed his first contract.)

but you are happy now! :-)
--
Martin

Mike Lane

On Wed, 27 Jul 2005 14:13:41 +0100, Martin wrote
    >>>
    >>> Maybe it's a daft question, but why do you need three?
    >>>
    >> I find it convenient to keep different kinds of transaction separate. For
    >> example I keep one card only for use abroad, so all my travelling expenses
    >> are easily identified.
    >
    > and the other one?
    >
Well <yawn>, if you're really interested - I use that one for internet
purchases.

It's also useful to have more than one card if for example an ATM swallows
one (that's happened to me when abroad) or it gets damaged and unreadable.

--
Mike Lane (UK North Yorkshire)
To contact me replace invalid with mike underscore lane

Martin

On Wed, 27 Jul 2005 16:44:34 GMT, Mike Lane <[email protected]> wrote:

    >On Wed, 27 Jul 2005 14:13:41 +0100, Martin wrote
    >>>>
    >>>> Maybe it's a daft question, but why do you need three?
    >>>>
    >>> I find it convenient to keep different kinds of transaction separate. For
    >>> example I keep one card only for use abroad, so all my travelling expenses
    >>> are easily identified.
    >>
    >> and the other one?
    >>
    >Well <yawn>, if you're really interested - I use that one for internet
    >purchases.
    >It's also useful to have more than one card if for example an ATM swallows
    >one (that's happened to me when abroad) or it gets damaged and unreadable.

I find two more than enough, perhaps I lead a duller life than you.
--
Martin

B Vaughan

On Wed, 27 Jul 2005 08:51:30 -0700, "EvelynVogtGamble(Divamanque)"
<[email protected]> wrote:

    >The adage about being "penny wise and pound foolish" seems
    >to apply here. I was raised on the "cash only" ethic, too.
    > Consequently, I missed the opportunity to get to Europe
    >when I was an aspiring young singer, and have regretted it
    >for most of my life. Many young American singers of my
    >generation WERE willing to take the chance, and achieved
    >successful careers in Europe at a time in the post-war world
    >when European opera houses were desperate for young singers.
    > Few of them became international stars, but they made
    >their living doing what they most wanted to do. (A baritone
    >of my acquaintance also married the mayor's daughter in the
    >German town where he signed his first contract.)

I can't see how my life would have been improved in any way by
borrowing more money. I borrowed money to go to university, as that
was the only way open to me at the time. However, that loan was a
millstone around my neck for years afterwards and actually prevented
me from taking risks with my career, because I had to always think
about how I would repay the loan.

I think not having debt has actually been a big advantage to me. In
1986, I had the opportunity to work for a year in the Netherlands. I
was able to pick up and go in relatively short order, whereas if I had
had a bunch of loans to worry about, I probably would have had to stay
put.

--
Barbara Vaughan
My email address is my first initial followed by my surname at libero dot it
I answer travel questions only in the newsgroup

Timothy Kroesen

I carry Three also; One in luggage stash; Two on different networks on
person.

Tim K

"Martin" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
    > On Wed, 27 Jul 2005 12:11:58 GMT, Mike Lane <[email protected]> wrote:
    > >On Tue, 26 Jul 2005 21:45:22 +0100, Martin wrote
    > >(in article <[email protected]>):
    > >
    > >> On Tue, 26 Jul 2005 17:03:21 GMT, Mike Lane <[email protected]>
wrote:
    > >>
    > >>
    > >>> I have 3 credit cards and pay no fee for any of them.
    > >>
    > >> Maybe it's a daft question, but why do you need three?
    > >>
    > >I find it convenient to keep different kinds of transaction separate.
For
    > >example I keep one card only for use abroad, so all my travelling
expenses
    > >are easily identified.
    > and the other one?
    > --
    > Martin

Timothy Kroesen

Why pay any but the newest of Mortgages, etc off???

Ever heard of the 'Rule of 78's' whereas most of your interest is paid
up front in the loan? May not apply to EU as I've never taken a loan
out there.

Tim K

"Icono Clast" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:1122464894.8c91e213ac73154336620c745815d9e8@t eranews...
    > B Vaughan wrote:
    > > I, unlike most Americans, almost never borrowed money for any
    > > reason. I once used a loan to buy a new car, but regretted it and
    > > thereafter I always bought used cars and paid cash. I borrowed to
    > > buy my house, and that was the only outstanding debt I had at the
    > > time I moved to Italy.
    > I, too, have been pretty-much debt free most of my life. I, too, once
    > got a loan for a car but I paid it off quickly. I currently have a
    > mortgage but I easily could retire it by writing a check. When
    > m'mother dies (that she hope is soon), I'll get an amount almost
    > equal to the amount of the mortgage. that's when I'll pay it off. The
    > result will be a about a 12.5% increase in my discretionary income.
    > __________________________________________________ _________________
    > A San Franciscan in 47.452 mile² San Francisco.
    > < http://geocities.com/dancefest/ >-< http://geocities.com/iconoc/ >
    > ICQ: < http://wwp.mirabilis.com/19098103 > ---> IClast at SFbay Net