The Eternal Canadian Question
Nov 13th 2003, 8:45 pm
#46
Guest
Posts: n/a
Re: The Eternal Canadian Question
Following up to Alan Pollock
>If that person was representative of the average Belgian, doesn't say much for
>Belgians, does it? Ignorance is rarely attractive. Pigheaded ignorance is
>never so. Nex
everybody in this group should be aware that no individual is
representative of any country.
--
Mike Reid
"Art is the lie that reveals the truth" P.Picasso
UK walking & photos "http://www.fellwalk.co.uk" <-- you can email us@ this site
Spain,cuisines and walking "http://www.fell-walker.co.uk" <-- dontuse@ all, it's a spamtrap
>If that person was representative of the average Belgian, doesn't say much for
>Belgians, does it? Ignorance is rarely attractive. Pigheaded ignorance is
>never so. Nex
everybody in this group should be aware that no individual is
representative of any country.
--
Mike Reid
"Art is the lie that reveals the truth" P.Picasso
UK walking & photos "http://www.fellwalk.co.uk" <-- you can email us@ this site
Spain,cuisines and walking "http://www.fell-walker.co.uk" <-- dontuse@ all, it's a spamtrap
Nov 13th 2003, 8:45 pm
#47
Guest
Posts: n/a
Re: The Eternal Canadian Question
Following up to [email protected]
>And would hippocracy be government by horses?
Perhasp its government by a cowboy?
--
Mike Reid
"Art is the lie that reveals the truth" P.Picasso
UK walking & photos "http://www.fellwalk.co.uk" <-- you can email us@ this site
Spain,cuisines and walking "http://www.fell-walker.co.uk" <-- dontuse@ all, it's a spamtrap
>And would hippocracy be government by horses?
Perhasp its government by a cowboy?
--
Mike Reid
"Art is the lie that reveals the truth" P.Picasso
UK walking & photos "http://www.fellwalk.co.uk" <-- you can email us@ this site
Spain,cuisines and walking "http://www.fell-walker.co.uk" <-- dontuse@ all, it's a spamtrap
Nov 13th 2003, 8:45 pm
#48
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Posts: n/a
Re: The Eternal Canadian Question
Following up to Alan Pollock
>The important question is not how superior Euros feel to Americans (which is
>what half of your post says), but how they would welcome an American who
>agrees with his government's stance on some issue Euros typically don't agree
>with. That's the *important* question.
They will argue with you. I think you will come unstuck if you go
all "God bless America" although I have heard *Brits* say that,
but not often and only once without irony!.
>If you go someplace and agree with most everything they say in that new place,
>they're going to hate you for it? Nex
Thats the alleged position, isnt it. I dont think it happens.
--
Mike Reid
"Art is the lie that reveals the truth" P.Picasso
UK walking & photos "http://www.fellwalk.co.uk" <-- you can email us@ this site
Spain,cuisines and walking "http://www.fell-walker.co.uk" <-- dontuse@ all, it's a spamtrap
>The important question is not how superior Euros feel to Americans (which is
>what half of your post says), but how they would welcome an American who
>agrees with his government's stance on some issue Euros typically don't agree
>with. That's the *important* question.
They will argue with you. I think you will come unstuck if you go
all "God bless America" although I have heard *Brits* say that,
but not often and only once without irony!.
>If you go someplace and agree with most everything they say in that new place,
>they're going to hate you for it? Nex
Thats the alleged position, isnt it. I dont think it happens.
--
Mike Reid
"Art is the lie that reveals the truth" P.Picasso
UK walking & photos "http://www.fellwalk.co.uk" <-- you can email us@ this site
Spain,cuisines and walking "http://www.fell-walker.co.uk" <-- dontuse@ all, it's a spamtrap
Nov 13th 2003, 10:20 pm
#49
Guest
Posts: n/a
Re: The Eternal Canadian Question
Alan Pollock <[email protected]> wrote in message news:<[email protected]>...
> The important question is not how superior Euros feel to Americans (which is
> what half of your post says), but how they would welcome an American who
> agrees with his government's stance on some issue Euros typically don't
> agree with. That's the *important* question.
The important thing is not to live up to the common American
stereotype of being arrogant, ignorant and abusive. Being friendly
and culturally sensitive will get the best out of people in Europe,
possibly suprising people who would not otherwise give Americans the
time of day.
If you wants to go around advocating the bombing of non-American
civilian populations, for example, then you will be wasting your time
abroad and as it would be cheaper to discuss this at with closest
white supremacist militia.
--
Guy Robinson
[all standard disclaimers apply]
> The important question is not how superior Euros feel to Americans (which is
> what half of your post says), but how they would welcome an American who
> agrees with his government's stance on some issue Euros typically don't
> agree with. That's the *important* question.
The important thing is not to live up to the common American
stereotype of being arrogant, ignorant and abusive. Being friendly
and culturally sensitive will get the best out of people in Europe,
possibly suprising people who would not otherwise give Americans the
time of day.
If you wants to go around advocating the bombing of non-American
civilian populations, for example, then you will be wasting your time
abroad and as it would be cheaper to discuss this at with closest
white supremacist militia.
--
Guy Robinson
[all standard disclaimers apply]
Nov 14th 2003, 12:49 am
#50
Guest
Posts: n/a
Re: The Eternal Canadian Question
In article <[email protected]>, Alan Pollock <[email protected]> wrote:
>Marc <[email protected]> wrote:
>> Not True:
>> I have seldom encountered behavior that was clearly anti-American. I tend
>> to be much more critical of America than almost any European I have met.
>> I remember hitch hiking through Europe in 1967 during the Viet Nam war. I
>> actively engaged people on the issue. Most of them were apologetic for
>> America rather than critical.
>> I think there is a tendency to forget that Europeans are much more aware of
>> history and there own past failings. They are less likely to judge America
>> than Americans are to judge them. They are most likely to judge America
>> negatively for its hipocracy than for its conduct. They are most negative
>> when America fails to live up to here own standards.
>> I have made good friends in Eastern Europe in the last 5 years. Most people
>> there can easily distinguish the difference between an American traveler and
>> the American Government. They are much more aware of American anti-war
>> sentiments. Than we are of the their attitudes. They are also aware of how
>> poor most American media is.
>> They know that they are usually better
>> informed than most Americans.
>> Maybe they spit in my soup and I never found out? Well I guess it doesn't
>> matter then.
>The important question is not how superior Euros feel to Americans (which is
>what half of your post says), but how they would welcome an American who
>agrees with his government's stance on some issue Euros typically don't agree
>with. That's the *important* question.
>If you go someplace and agree with most everything they say in that new place,
>they're going to hate you for it? Nex
Most likely politics won't come up as a topic of conversation, if you
don't bring it up yourself. If you do, you should be prepared for a
'lively discussion'. In the unlikely event that someone else brings the
topic up, just say you're not interested in politics if you don't feel
like an argument.
>Marc <[email protected]> wrote:
>> Not True:
>> I have seldom encountered behavior that was clearly anti-American. I tend
>> to be much more critical of America than almost any European I have met.
>> I remember hitch hiking through Europe in 1967 during the Viet Nam war. I
>> actively engaged people on the issue. Most of them were apologetic for
>> America rather than critical.
>> I think there is a tendency to forget that Europeans are much more aware of
>> history and there own past failings. They are less likely to judge America
>> than Americans are to judge them. They are most likely to judge America
>> negatively for its hipocracy than for its conduct. They are most negative
>> when America fails to live up to here own standards.
>> I have made good friends in Eastern Europe in the last 5 years. Most people
>> there can easily distinguish the difference between an American traveler and
>> the American Government. They are much more aware of American anti-war
>> sentiments. Than we are of the their attitudes. They are also aware of how
>> poor most American media is.
>> They know that they are usually better
>> informed than most Americans.
>> Maybe they spit in my soup and I never found out? Well I guess it doesn't
>> matter then.
>The important question is not how superior Euros feel to Americans (which is
>what half of your post says), but how they would welcome an American who
>agrees with his government's stance on some issue Euros typically don't agree
>with. That's the *important* question.
>If you go someplace and agree with most everything they say in that new place,
>they're going to hate you for it? Nex
Most likely politics won't come up as a topic of conversation, if you
don't bring it up yourself. If you do, you should be prepared for a
'lively discussion'. In the unlikely event that someone else brings the
topic up, just say you're not interested in politics if you don't feel
like an argument.
Nov 14th 2003, 1:32 am
#51
Guest
Posts: n/a
Re: The Eternal Canadian Question
Alan Pollock <[email protected]> wrote in message news:<[email protected]>...
> psmith <[email protected]> wrote:
> > It is very difficult to say. Most of the time, I don't think it makes much
> > difference. On a few occasions, when I was taken for an American, and I
> > said that I was Canadian, the person concerned sincerely apologised. I
> > couldn't quite make out whether it was because they considered being taken
> > as an American insulting, or whether it was just a general apology. A
> > Belgian recently told me, knowing that I was Canadian, that he thought
> > Americans had no culture, and were 'cowboys'. I think he meant to say that
> > he didn't think that Canadians were like them.
>
>
> If that person was representative of the average Belgian, doesn't say much for
> Belgians, does it? Ignorance is rarely attractive. Pigheaded ignorance is
> never so. Nex
He's not, and nor are the thousands of no-brainer Americans, Brits,
... who crowd the webwaves representative of the majority, they just
make the loudest noise.
Pigheaded generalizing does you no good.
> psmith <[email protected]> wrote:
> > It is very difficult to say. Most of the time, I don't think it makes much
> > difference. On a few occasions, when I was taken for an American, and I
> > said that I was Canadian, the person concerned sincerely apologised. I
> > couldn't quite make out whether it was because they considered being taken
> > as an American insulting, or whether it was just a general apology. A
> > Belgian recently told me, knowing that I was Canadian, that he thought
> > Americans had no culture, and were 'cowboys'. I think he meant to say that
> > he didn't think that Canadians were like them.
>
>
> If that person was representative of the average Belgian, doesn't say much for
> Belgians, does it? Ignorance is rarely attractive. Pigheaded ignorance is
> never so. Nex
He's not, and nor are the thousands of no-brainer Americans, Brits,
... who crowd the webwaves representative of the majority, they just
make the loudest noise.
Pigheaded generalizing does you no good.
Nov 14th 2003, 1:42 am
#52
Guest
Posts: n/a
Re: The Eternal Canadian Question
Reid <[email protected]> wrote in message news:<[email protected]>. ..
> Following up to Damson Rhee
>
> >Okay, let's get some feedback from Europeans once and for all. I'm a
> >Canadian, and I'm planning on going to England, Scotland and Ireland next
> >May. Canadians are under the impression they need to do stuff to make it
> >very clear to Europeans that they are CANADIANS, not Americans. Americans
> >say it isn't true. True, not true? In quiring minds want to know,
> >especially before they get over there for 3 weeks.
> >D
>
> Not true. Bush would get a punch in the mouth, but you are not
> Bush.:-)
I'd try to strangle him with a dictionary.
> Following up to Damson Rhee
>
> >Okay, let's get some feedback from Europeans once and for all. I'm a
> >Canadian, and I'm planning on going to England, Scotland and Ireland next
> >May. Canadians are under the impression they need to do stuff to make it
> >very clear to Europeans that they are CANADIANS, not Americans. Americans
> >say it isn't true. True, not true? In quiring minds want to know,
> >especially before they get over there for 3 weeks.
> >D
>
> Not true. Bush would get a punch in the mouth, but you are not
> Bush.:-)
I'd try to strangle him with a dictionary.
Nov 14th 2003, 2:03 am
#53
Guest
Posts: n/a
Re: The Eternal Canadian Question
On Fri, 14 Nov 2003 04:09:36 +0000 (UTC), Alan Pollock
<[email protected]> wrote:
>The important question is not how superior Euros feel to Americans (which is
>what half of your post says), but how they would welcome an American who
>agrees with his government's stance on some issue Euros typically don't agree
>with. That's the *important* question.
I've a few euros in my drawer following a recent trip to Germany.
I've quizzed them about their views on this but they just lie there
and say nothing. Maybe they aren't getting out enough.
)
Derek
<[email protected]> wrote:
>The important question is not how superior Euros feel to Americans (which is
>what half of your post says), but how they would welcome an American who
>agrees with his government's stance on some issue Euros typically don't agree
>with. That's the *important* question.
I've a few euros in my drawer following a recent trip to Germany.
I've quizzed them about their views on this but they just lie there
and say nothing. Maybe they aren't getting out enough.
)Derek
Nov 14th 2003, 2:47 am
#54
Guest
Posts: n/a
Re: The Eternal Canadian Question
Reid <[email protected]> wrote:
> Following up to Alan Pollock
> >
> >If that person was representative of the average Belgian, doesn't say much for
> >Belgians, does it? Ignorance is rarely attractive. Pigheaded ignorance is
> >never so. Nex
> everybody in this group should be aware that no individual is
> representative of any country.
But a person's views can be representative of the majority views in his
country. Reason I used the words 'average Belgian'. Nex
> Following up to Alan Pollock
> >
> >If that person was representative of the average Belgian, doesn't say much for
> >Belgians, does it? Ignorance is rarely attractive. Pigheaded ignorance is
> >never so. Nex
> everybody in this group should be aware that no individual is
> representative of any country.
But a person's views can be representative of the majority views in his
country. Reason I used the words 'average Belgian'. Nex
Nov 14th 2003, 2:53 am
#55
Guest
Posts: n/a
Re: The Eternal Canadian Question
Locus <[email protected]> wrote:
> Alan Pollock <[email protected]> wrote in message news:<[email protected]>...
> > psmith <[email protected]> wrote:
> > > It is very difficult to say. Most of the time, I don't think it makes much
> > > difference. On a few occasions, when I was taken for an American, and I
> > > said that I was Canadian, the person concerned sincerely apologised. I
> > > couldn't quite make out whether it was because they considered being taken
> > > as an American insulting, or whether it was just a general apology. A
> > > Belgian recently told me, knowing that I was Canadian, that he thought
> > > Americans had no culture, and were 'cowboys'. I think he meant to say that
> > > he didn't think that Canadians were like them.
> >
> >
> > If that person was representative of the average Belgian, doesn't say much for
> > Belgians, does it? Ignorance is rarely attractive. Pigheaded ignorance is
> > never so. Nex
> He's not, and nor are the thousands of no-brainer Americans, Brits,
> ... who crowd the webwaves representative of the majority, they just
> make the loudest noise.
> Pigheaded generalizing does you no good.
I'm glad to hear that in your opinion, that Belgian dewd the Canadian psmith
told us about isn't representative of majority views in Belgium.
My point about pigheadedness has obviously met with your approval.
Thank you. Locus. Nex
> Alan Pollock <[email protected]> wrote in message news:<[email protected]>...
> > psmith <[email protected]> wrote:
> > > It is very difficult to say. Most of the time, I don't think it makes much
> > > difference. On a few occasions, when I was taken for an American, and I
> > > said that I was Canadian, the person concerned sincerely apologised. I
> > > couldn't quite make out whether it was because they considered being taken
> > > as an American insulting, or whether it was just a general apology. A
> > > Belgian recently told me, knowing that I was Canadian, that he thought
> > > Americans had no culture, and were 'cowboys'. I think he meant to say that
> > > he didn't think that Canadians were like them.
> >
> >
> > If that person was representative of the average Belgian, doesn't say much for
> > Belgians, does it? Ignorance is rarely attractive. Pigheaded ignorance is
> > never so. Nex
> He's not, and nor are the thousands of no-brainer Americans, Brits,
> ... who crowd the webwaves representative of the majority, they just
> make the loudest noise.
> Pigheaded generalizing does you no good.
I'm glad to hear that in your opinion, that Belgian dewd the Canadian psmith
told us about isn't representative of majority views in Belgium.
My point about pigheadedness has obviously met with your approval.
Thank you. Locus. Nex
Nov 14th 2003, 3:00 am
#56
Guest
Posts: n/a
Re: The Eternal Canadian Question
On Fri, 14 Nov 2003 15:47:05 +0000 (UTC), Alan Pollock
<[email protected]> wrote:
>Reid <[email protected]> wrote:
>> Following up to Alan Pollock
>> >
>> >If that person was representative of the average Belgian, doesn't say much for
>> >Belgians, does it? Ignorance is rarely attractive. Pigheaded ignorance is
>> >never so. Nex
>> everybody in this group should be aware that no individual is
>> representative of any country.
>But a person's views can be representative of the majority views in his
>country. Reason I used the words 'average Belgian'. Nex
You also said "if", rendering the entire statement devoid of
factual content.
************* DAVE HATUNEN ([email protected]) *************
* Tucson Arizona, out where the cacti grow *
* My typos & mispellings are intentional copyright traps *
<[email protected]> wrote:
>Reid <[email protected]> wrote:
>> Following up to Alan Pollock
>> >
>> >If that person was representative of the average Belgian, doesn't say much for
>> >Belgians, does it? Ignorance is rarely attractive. Pigheaded ignorance is
>> >never so. Nex
>> everybody in this group should be aware that no individual is
>> representative of any country.
>But a person's views can be representative of the majority views in his
>country. Reason I used the words 'average Belgian'. Nex
You also said "if", rendering the entire statement devoid of
factual content.
************* DAVE HATUNEN ([email protected]) *************
* Tucson Arizona, out where the cacti grow *
* My typos & mispellings are intentional copyright traps *
Nov 14th 2003, 3:02 am
#57
Guest
Posts: n/a
Re: The Eternal Canadian Question
Reid <[email protected]> wrote:
> Following up to Alan Pollock
> >The important question is not how superior Euros feel to Americans (which is
> >what half of your post says), but how they would welcome an American who
> >agrees with his government's stance on some issue Euros typically don't agree
> >with. That's the *important* question.
> They will argue with you. I think you will come unstuck if you go
> all "God bless America" although I have heard *Brits* say that,
> but not often and only once without irony!.
Ahh, but the Brits have centuries of practise condescending to the natives.
Hope it's not becoming a lost art, footballers notwithstanding. It's always
touching to hear a Brit abroad say 'my, they're so clever'.
> >If you go someplace and agree with most everything they say in that new place,
> >they're going to hate you for it? Nex
> Thats the alleged position, isnt it. I dont think it happens.
I don't either. It's much more interesting to find out what honest
disagreement does to the tourist-native relationship. Any relationship, in
fact. Nex
> Following up to Alan Pollock
> >The important question is not how superior Euros feel to Americans (which is
> >what half of your post says), but how they would welcome an American who
> >agrees with his government's stance on some issue Euros typically don't agree
> >with. That's the *important* question.
> They will argue with you. I think you will come unstuck if you go
> all "God bless America" although I have heard *Brits* say that,
> but not often and only once without irony!.
Ahh, but the Brits have centuries of practise condescending to the natives.
Hope it's not becoming a lost art, footballers notwithstanding. It's always
touching to hear a Brit abroad say 'my, they're so clever'.
> >If you go someplace and agree with most everything they say in that new place,
> >they're going to hate you for it? Nex
> Thats the alleged position, isnt it. I dont think it happens.
I don't either. It's much more interesting to find out what honest
disagreement does to the tourist-native relationship. Any relationship, in
fact. Nex
Nov 14th 2003, 3:16 am
#58
Guest
Posts: n/a
Re: The Eternal Canadian Question
Guy Robinson <[email protected]> wrote:
> If you wants to go around advocating the bombing of non-American
> civilian populations, for example, then you will be wasting your time
> abroad and as it would be cheaper to discuss this at with closest
> white supremacist militia.
I think I know what you're getting at - the war in Iraq - but you're just not
very good at explaining yourself. Moreover, your equating the war in Iraq with
white supremacist militia says to me that either you have water on the brain
or you're so full of hatred you can't see straight
If you wish to make some (rabid?) point, then I invite you to make it.
Clearly.
In the meantime, most folks here have already said that one's point of view on
the matter *doesn't* matter when traveling in Europe, since civility in all
but the most extreme situations is alive and well.
If you believe the war in Iraq is extreme and equals support for a crime
against humanity then at least say so instead of pussyfooting around in such
an imbicilic manner. That you did it on just one foot doesn't impress since it
rarely augurs well for balance. Nex
> If you wants to go around advocating the bombing of non-American
> civilian populations, for example, then you will be wasting your time
> abroad and as it would be cheaper to discuss this at with closest
> white supremacist militia.
I think I know what you're getting at - the war in Iraq - but you're just not
very good at explaining yourself. Moreover, your equating the war in Iraq with
white supremacist militia says to me that either you have water on the brain
or you're so full of hatred you can't see straight
If you wish to make some (rabid?) point, then I invite you to make it.
Clearly.
In the meantime, most folks here have already said that one's point of view on
the matter *doesn't* matter when traveling in Europe, since civility in all
but the most extreme situations is alive and well.
If you believe the war in Iraq is extreme and equals support for a crime
against humanity then at least say so instead of pussyfooting around in such
an imbicilic manner. That you did it on just one foot doesn't impress since it
rarely augurs well for balance. Nex
Nov 14th 2003, 3:45 am
#59
Guest
Posts: n/a
Re: The Eternal Canadian Question
Derek McBryde <[email protected]> wrote:
> On Fri, 14 Nov 2003 04:09:36 +0000 (UTC), Alan Pollock
> <[email protected]> wrote:
> >The important question is not how superior Euros feel to Americans (which is
> >what half of your post says), but how they would welcome an American who
> >agrees with his government's stance on some issue Euros typically don't agree
> >with. That's the *important* question.
> >
> I've a few euros in my drawer following a recent trip to Germany.
> I've quizzed them about their views on this but they just lie there
> and say nothing. Maybe they aren't getting out enough.)
> Derek
Of course the term 'Euros' for Europeans was being used years before the
currency even existed. It's a natural. Vaguely like 'Yanks' instead of the
longer 'Americans'. Whether it's right or wrong matters little, since it's
common usage, and that's difficult to argue with.
But should a new term for 'Europeans' be invented here? Yes!
Needs to be simple and quick to say like 'Euros'.
Cannot be disparaging, like 'Frogs'
I give you: 'Eurcs'
Or Eurcos
Eurcoms
Eupies
Wait, I have it:
Eups (Eng. pronounciation eeoops - the singular would be Eup)
Even travels well. The French would sound a bit like Earp (as in Wyatt) les
Eups - the Germans could use the oy sound: 'Oyp' (plural would sound like
Oypen). The Scandinavians could pronounce it however they wished. Nex
> On Fri, 14 Nov 2003 04:09:36 +0000 (UTC), Alan Pollock
> <[email protected]> wrote:
> >The important question is not how superior Euros feel to Americans (which is
> >what half of your post says), but how they would welcome an American who
> >agrees with his government's stance on some issue Euros typically don't agree
> >with. That's the *important* question.
> >
> I've a few euros in my drawer following a recent trip to Germany.
> I've quizzed them about their views on this but they just lie there
> and say nothing. Maybe they aren't getting out enough.
)> Derek
Of course the term 'Euros' for Europeans was being used years before the
currency even existed. It's a natural. Vaguely like 'Yanks' instead of the
longer 'Americans'. Whether it's right or wrong matters little, since it's
common usage, and that's difficult to argue with.
But should a new term for 'Europeans' be invented here? Yes!
Needs to be simple and quick to say like 'Euros'.
Cannot be disparaging, like 'Frogs'
I give you: 'Eurcs'
Or Eurcos
Eurcoms
Eupies
Wait, I have it:
Eups (Eng. pronounciation eeoops - the singular would be Eup)
Even travels well. The French would sound a bit like Earp (as in Wyatt) les
Eups - the Germans could use the oy sound: 'Oyp' (plural would sound like
Oypen). The Scandinavians could pronounce it however they wished. Nex
Nov 14th 2003, 4:37 am
#60
Guest
Posts: n/a
Re: The Eternal Canadian Question
Following up to Alan Pollock
>> They will argue with you. I think you will come unstuck if you go
>> all "God bless America" although I have heard *Brits* say that,
>> but not often and only once without irony!.
>Ahh, but the Brits have centuries of practise condescending to the natives.
>Hope it's not becoming a lost art, footballers notwithstanding. It's always
>touching to hear a Brit abroad say 'my, they're so clever'.
I resent that, we are not just condescending to the natives, we
are condescending to everyone.
--
Mike Reid
"Art is the lie that reveals the truth" P.Picasso
UK walking & photos "http://www.fellwalk.co.uk" <-- you can email us@ this site
Spain,cuisines and walking "http://www.fell-walker.co.uk" <-- dontuse@ all, it's a spamtrap
>> They will argue with you. I think you will come unstuck if you go
>> all "God bless America" although I have heard *Brits* say that,
>> but not often and only once without irony!.
>Ahh, but the Brits have centuries of practise condescending to the natives.
>Hope it's not becoming a lost art, footballers notwithstanding. It's always
>touching to hear a Brit abroad say 'my, they're so clever'.
I resent that, we are not just condescending to the natives, we
are condescending to everyone.
--
Mike Reid
"Art is the lie that reveals the truth" P.Picasso
UK walking & photos "http://www.fellwalk.co.uk" <-- you can email us@ this site
Spain,cuisines and walking "http://www.fell-walker.co.uk" <-- dontuse@ all, it's a spamtrap
