Eastern Europe--best atmosphere?
Nov 27th 2003, 10:42 am
#31
Guest
Posts: n/a
Re: Eastern Europe--best atmosphere?
On Thu, 27 Nov 2003 13:38:02 -0600 (CST), [email protected] (Ken
Nedliky) wrote:
>DFM posted:
>>>Common usage of the phrase 'eastern
>>> Europe' denotes that Austria is in
>>> western Europe, and the Czech Rep,
>>> Hungary, Poland, Slovakia, Croatia,
>>> Slovenia etc. are in the east.
>The Austrian Government gives the location of the country as Central
>Europe. Once again DFM displays his lack of knowledge of both politics
>and geography in this area.
>www.austria.gv.at/e/
>www.austria-tourism.at/index_e.html
?????
The phrase 'Central Europe' isn't even in either of those pages!
Aren't cites supposed to support what you say?
---
DFM
Nedliky) wrote:
>DFM posted:
>>>Common usage of the phrase 'eastern
>>> Europe' denotes that Austria is in
>>> western Europe, and the Czech Rep,
>>> Hungary, Poland, Slovakia, Croatia,
>>> Slovenia etc. are in the east.
>The Austrian Government gives the location of the country as Central
>Europe. Once again DFM displays his lack of knowledge of both politics
>and geography in this area.
>www.austria.gv.at/e/
>www.austria-tourism.at/index_e.html
?????
The phrase 'Central Europe' isn't even in either of those pages!
Aren't cites supposed to support what you say?
---
DFM
Nov 27th 2003, 2:43 pm
#32
Guest
Posts: n/a
Re: Eastern Europe--best atmosphere?
On Thu, 27 Nov 2003 13:19:41 +0100, dion_b <[email protected]> wrote:
>> ?????
>>
>> The phrase 'Central Europe' isn't even in either of those pages!
>>
>> Aren't cites supposed to support what you say?
>> ---
>> DFM
>Erm, take a closer look:
>www.austria.gv.at/e/ - click on 'Austria', first paragraph, first
>sentence: "Austria is located in southern Central Europe."
>How much clearer can you get?
You think I am going to traverse a site to get a piece of information
that isn't even relevant to what I said?
>Is it so difficult to accept what the people living in these areas
>actually think, rather than stick doggedly to a cold-war era European
>map with an Iron curtain descending from Stettin to Trieste? It is worth
>noting that the 1990's have been described by many historians as 'the
>rebirth of Central Europe'.
>1989 was almost 15 years ago, please stop living in the black/white
>East/West past.
I have not said/suggested/alluded to ANY of the above .
All I said was that the phrase "Eastern Europe" is still commonly
used. At no point did I say "Austria is in Western Europe, not Central
Europe" or "The Czech Republic is in Eastern Europe, not Central
Europe", but that didn't stop people from assuming that is what I
meant.
---
DFM
>> ?????
>>
>> The phrase 'Central Europe' isn't even in either of those pages!
>>
>> Aren't cites supposed to support what you say?
>> ---
>> DFM
>Erm, take a closer look:
>www.austria.gv.at/e/ - click on 'Austria', first paragraph, first
>sentence: "Austria is located in southern Central Europe."
>How much clearer can you get?
You think I am going to traverse a site to get a piece of information
that isn't even relevant to what I said?
>Is it so difficult to accept what the people living in these areas
>actually think, rather than stick doggedly to a cold-war era European
>map with an Iron curtain descending from Stettin to Trieste? It is worth
>noting that the 1990's have been described by many historians as 'the
>rebirth of Central Europe'.
>1989 was almost 15 years ago, please stop living in the black/white
>East/West past.
I have not said/suggested/alluded to ANY of the above .
All I said was that the phrase "Eastern Europe" is still commonly
used. At no point did I say "Austria is in Western Europe, not Central
Europe" or "The Czech Republic is in Eastern Europe, not Central
Europe", but that didn't stop people from assuming that is what I
meant.
---
DFM
Nov 27th 2003, 2:55 pm
#33
Guest
Posts: n/a
Re: Eastern Europe--best atmosphere?
You have had all sorts of great advice of places to visit. My
suggestion would be that you consider the time, effort and expense
that it will take to get to all these places and the fact that your
visit is 2 weeks. I recommend you pick about 3-4 places and plan on
spending a few days in and around them.
One place suggested was Romania. A nice trip is from Budpest---good
for 2-3 days to Romania. From Deva you can get to Hunadoara which was
mentioned. Stay in Deva and take the bus to Hunadoara to the castle
which is being restored but is still very open, no guides and not
touristy. The real deal.
From there you can get to Cluj-Napoca which is a great city. For
$12/night you could stay with a family and get breakfast. Friends of
mine, very nice and need the money.
From Cluj you can get to Baia Mare and hire a guide and driver for $35
to take you to the region known as Maramures which is largely
Hungarian. Many people still dress in very traditional dress and wear
midieval style footwear. Very interesting. Or spend a night in Youd
which is a very small village with homes for tourists that are very
reasonable.
From there an adventure into Transylvania could be very interesting.
You could easily spend all your time there and not see everything as
is the case in many other places.
Good luck, have fun.
Dan
suggestion would be that you consider the time, effort and expense
that it will take to get to all these places and the fact that your
visit is 2 weeks. I recommend you pick about 3-4 places and plan on
spending a few days in and around them.
One place suggested was Romania. A nice trip is from Budpest---good
for 2-3 days to Romania. From Deva you can get to Hunadoara which was
mentioned. Stay in Deva and take the bus to Hunadoara to the castle
which is being restored but is still very open, no guides and not
touristy. The real deal.
From there you can get to Cluj-Napoca which is a great city. For
$12/night you could stay with a family and get breakfast. Friends of
mine, very nice and need the money.
From Cluj you can get to Baia Mare and hire a guide and driver for $35
to take you to the region known as Maramures which is largely
Hungarian. Many people still dress in very traditional dress and wear
midieval style footwear. Very interesting. Or spend a night in Youd
which is a very small village with homes for tourists that are very
reasonable.
From there an adventure into Transylvania could be very interesting.
You could easily spend all your time there and not see everything as
is the case in many other places.
Good luck, have fun.
Dan
Nov 27th 2003, 7:48 pm
#34
Guest
Posts: n/a
Re: Eastern Europe--best atmosphere?
[email protected] (Arpad) wrote in message news:<[email protected]. com>...
> [email protected] (a.d.danilecki) wrote in message news:<[email protected]. com>...
>
> Hi Chopin,
>
> > Can't say for Croatians, but Czechs and Poles definetely felt part of
> > Western Europe and especially in Poland our identity is created in
> > sharp contrast to Russia. We have a lot of common with Germany,
> > France, but almost nothing in common (except last 40 years in
> > communism) with Russia.
>
> Except language which is the main identification mark of any nation.
> Two greatest Polish writers, Mickiewicz and Slowacki, were born in
> Belarus and Ukraine, respectively. Ukrainian Lviv has been the second
> largest city of Poland for 500 years (until 1945). Not to forget
> common borders, and hundreds years of history when Poland, Ukraine,
> Belarus, and Russia constituted the same state.
When Russia conquered half of Poland.
Before that, Poland and Lithuania and today territories of Ukraine and
Belarus were one state.
> > Our culture was created solely on western
> > standards.
>
> Yes, that's why your imitative 'culture' has not been able to produce
> anything truly original, neither in visual arts
Matejko, Kossak, Malczewski ...
>nor in literature nor
Arians and their concepts which were then aped by Locke and so on...
Gombrowicz, Milosz, Conrad, Lem, Szymborska ... Krasinski, Mickiewicz,
Slowacki, Norwid... "Witkacy" Witkiewicz ...
In music?
Chopin, Paderewski, Penderecki...
> in science.
Vitelius, Funk, Sklodowska-Curie, Banach, Czochralski, Sierpinski,
Sniadecki, Tarski, Ulam, Lukasiewicz, Steinhaus, Rejewski...
plus controversial like Mandelbrot, Copernicus, Hevelius...
plus Polanski, Wajda, Kieslowski...
If you don't know those names it only shows your ignorancy, not that
we were aping western world.
> I've been to your country but was unable to discover
> either a handsome palace or an art gallery.
You missed all that art-galleries? Shame on you.
About palaces, well, we have that little thing called World War II and
then communism. But still if you were not impressed by Wawel, Lazienki
or Wilanow, tehn well, its just a matter of taste.
> > We feel ties to western Europe, but almost none to Russia,
> > Georgia, much less to Belarus and Ukraine.
>
> Not sure whan a non-Slavic country like Georgia has to do with it.
Georgia is usually considered part of Eastern Europe.
> Poles and Czechs have always been considered venal quislings by the
> main body of Orthodox Slavdom. Perhaps the only nations who tried so
> hard to forfeit their Slavic identity. I thought Germans teached them
Actually there was once popular theory in Poland that Russian are not
Slavs, but Mongolic tribe which accepted Slavic language
(<- that's
smiley for those without sense of humour)
Besides, what Germans? I prefer to use term "Nazis". I would want to
think that average German should not be identified with Nazis, even if
many of them were following their orders with great enthusiasm.
A.D.Danilecki
> [email protected] (a.d.danilecki) wrote in message news:<[email protected]. com>...
>
> Hi Chopin,
>
> > Can't say for Croatians, but Czechs and Poles definetely felt part of
> > Western Europe and especially in Poland our identity is created in
> > sharp contrast to Russia. We have a lot of common with Germany,
> > France, but almost nothing in common (except last 40 years in
> > communism) with Russia.
>
> Except language which is the main identification mark of any nation.
> Two greatest Polish writers, Mickiewicz and Slowacki, were born in
> Belarus and Ukraine, respectively. Ukrainian Lviv has been the second
> largest city of Poland for 500 years (until 1945). Not to forget
> common borders, and hundreds years of history when Poland, Ukraine,
> Belarus, and Russia constituted the same state.
When Russia conquered half of Poland.
Before that, Poland and Lithuania and today territories of Ukraine and
Belarus were one state.
> > Our culture was created solely on western
> > standards.
>
> Yes, that's why your imitative 'culture' has not been able to produce
> anything truly original, neither in visual arts
Matejko, Kossak, Malczewski ...
>nor in literature nor
Arians and their concepts which were then aped by Locke and so on...
Gombrowicz, Milosz, Conrad, Lem, Szymborska ... Krasinski, Mickiewicz,
Slowacki, Norwid... "Witkacy" Witkiewicz ...
In music?
Chopin, Paderewski, Penderecki...
> in science.
Vitelius, Funk, Sklodowska-Curie, Banach, Czochralski, Sierpinski,
Sniadecki, Tarski, Ulam, Lukasiewicz, Steinhaus, Rejewski...
plus controversial like Mandelbrot, Copernicus, Hevelius...
plus Polanski, Wajda, Kieslowski...
If you don't know those names it only shows your ignorancy, not that
we were aping western world.
> I've been to your country but was unable to discover
> either a handsome palace or an art gallery.
You missed all that art-galleries? Shame on you.
About palaces, well, we have that little thing called World War II and
then communism. But still if you were not impressed by Wawel, Lazienki
or Wilanow, tehn well, its just a matter of taste.
> > We feel ties to western Europe, but almost none to Russia,
> > Georgia, much less to Belarus and Ukraine.
>
> Not sure whan a non-Slavic country like Georgia has to do with it.
Georgia is usually considered part of Eastern Europe.
> Poles and Czechs have always been considered venal quislings by the
> main body of Orthodox Slavdom. Perhaps the only nations who tried so
> hard to forfeit their Slavic identity. I thought Germans teached them
Actually there was once popular theory in Poland that Russian are not
Slavs, but Mongolic tribe which accepted Slavic language
(<- that'ssmiley for those without sense of humour)
Besides, what Germans? I prefer to use term "Nazis". I would want to
think that average German should not be identified with Nazis, even if
many of them were following their orders with great enthusiasm.
A.D.Danilecki
Nov 28th 2003, 1:04 am
#35
Guest
Posts: n/a
Re: Eastern Europe--best atmosphere?
In article <[email protected] >,
[email protected] (a.d.danilecki) wrote:
> In music?
>
> Chopin, Paderewski, Penderecki...
Lutoslawski, Gorecki...
[email protected] (a.d.danilecki) wrote:
> In music?
>
> Chopin, Paderewski, Penderecki...
Lutoslawski, Gorecki...
Nov 28th 2003, 2:56 am
#36
Guest
Posts: n/a
Re: Eastern Europe--best atmosphere?
On Wed, 26 Nov 2003 17:02:51 +0100, dion_b wrote:
> devil wrote:
>
>> On Wed, 26 Nov 2003 19:46:42 -0500, Ivan Sever wrote:
>>
>>
>>>In article <[email protected]>,
>>> Deep Freud Moors <deepfreudmoors@eITmISaACTUALLYiREAL!l.nu> wrote:
>>>>>The dark-skinned Americans prefer to be known as Blacks or
>>>>>African-Americans, but you can insist on calling them "Negroes."
>>>>The point being?
>>>The point being they prefer "Cental Europe."
>>
>>
>> And they own the dictionary?
>>
>> Or is this just a case of some folks advertising their inferiority
>> complex?
>>
>> (What is it that makes "east" worse than "center?" Poor Russians...)
>
> Come on, show a bit of respect for the locals...
>
> They don't own the dictionary but they do just happen to live in the
> region and so should have some say in the matter, more than people
> thousands of kilometers away who probably would not know Bucuresti from
> Budapest from Beograd of they were dumped there with every dictionary
> under the sun, in any event.
They can try. Sure they are free to look silly. To advertise their
inferiority complex.
(Point remaining that there is nothing intrinsically worse with "east" as
compared with "center" until some agenda comes into the picture that's
pure emotions. And that *is* demeaning to their neighbors to the east.)
> When in Rome do as the Romans, after all
Not sure that bears any relationship.
The story reminds me of an attempt, some years back, by the then military
regime in Brazil, to rewrite the English dictionary, forcing the world to
spell the name as in Portuguese, with an s instead of z.
Similar story, the inferiority complex thing, aka nationalism.
No matter what spin you put on these, allow me to laugh.
> devil wrote:
>
>> On Wed, 26 Nov 2003 19:46:42 -0500, Ivan Sever wrote:
>>
>>
>>>In article <[email protected]>,
>>> Deep Freud Moors <deepfreudmoors@eITmISaACTUALLYiREAL!l.nu> wrote:
>>>>>The dark-skinned Americans prefer to be known as Blacks or
>>>>>African-Americans, but you can insist on calling them "Negroes."
>>>>The point being?
>>>The point being they prefer "Cental Europe."
>>
>>
>> And they own the dictionary?
>>
>> Or is this just a case of some folks advertising their inferiority
>> complex?
>>
>> (What is it that makes "east" worse than "center?" Poor Russians...)
>
> Come on, show a bit of respect for the locals...
>
> They don't own the dictionary but they do just happen to live in the
> region and so should have some say in the matter, more than people
> thousands of kilometers away who probably would not know Bucuresti from
> Budapest from Beograd of they were dumped there with every dictionary
> under the sun, in any event.
They can try. Sure they are free to look silly. To advertise their
inferiority complex.
(Point remaining that there is nothing intrinsically worse with "east" as
compared with "center" until some agenda comes into the picture that's
pure emotions. And that *is* demeaning to their neighbors to the east.)
> When in Rome do as the Romans, after all
Not sure that bears any relationship.
The story reminds me of an attempt, some years back, by the then military
regime in Brazil, to rewrite the English dictionary, forcing the world to
spell the name as in Portuguese, with an s instead of z.
Similar story, the inferiority complex thing, aka nationalism.
No matter what spin you put on these, allow me to laugh.
Nov 28th 2003, 3:01 am
#37
Guest
Posts: n/a
Re: Eastern Europe--best atmosphere?
On Fri, 28 Nov 2003 00:48:08 -0800, a.d.danilecki wrote:
> [email protected] (Arpad) wrote in message news:<[email protected]. com>...
>> [email protected] (a.d.danilecki) wrote in message news:<[email protected]. com>...
>>
>> Hi Chopin,
>>
>> > Can't say for Croatians, but Czechs and Poles definetely felt part of
>> > Western Europe and especially in Poland our identity is created in
>> > sharp contrast to Russia. We have a lot of common with Germany,
>> > France, but almost nothing in common (except last 40 years in
>> > communism) with Russia.
>>
>> Except language which is the main identification mark of any nation.
>> Two greatest Polish writers, Mickiewicz and Slowacki, were born in
>> Belarus and Ukraine, respectively. Ukrainian Lviv has been the second
>> largest city of Poland for 500 years (until 1945). Not to forget
>> common borders, and hundreds years of history when Poland, Ukraine,
>> Belarus, and Russia constituted the same state.
>
> When Russia conquered half of Poland.
>
> Before that, Poland and Lithuania and today territories of Ukraine and
> Belarus were one state.
And before that, Poland didn't exist...
Actually, there is no Poland on my map either. Circa 1850 or so.
But then, who cares? (Until one brings in all kinds of emotions,
prejudice, tribal wars etc. Nationalism is evil whether it's Dubya's,
Polish, Hitler's, Mussolini, Brazilian, or whatever. All driven by
prejudice and inferiority complexes.)
> [email protected] (Arpad) wrote in message news:<[email protected]. com>...
>> [email protected] (a.d.danilecki) wrote in message news:<[email protected]. com>...
>>
>> Hi Chopin,
>>
>> > Can't say for Croatians, but Czechs and Poles definetely felt part of
>> > Western Europe and especially in Poland our identity is created in
>> > sharp contrast to Russia. We have a lot of common with Germany,
>> > France, but almost nothing in common (except last 40 years in
>> > communism) with Russia.
>>
>> Except language which is the main identification mark of any nation.
>> Two greatest Polish writers, Mickiewicz and Slowacki, were born in
>> Belarus and Ukraine, respectively. Ukrainian Lviv has been the second
>> largest city of Poland for 500 years (until 1945). Not to forget
>> common borders, and hundreds years of history when Poland, Ukraine,
>> Belarus, and Russia constituted the same state.
>
> When Russia conquered half of Poland.
>
> Before that, Poland and Lithuania and today territories of Ukraine and
> Belarus were one state.
And before that, Poland didn't exist...
Actually, there is no Poland on my map either. Circa 1850 or so.
But then, who cares? (Until one brings in all kinds of emotions,
prejudice, tribal wars etc. Nationalism is evil whether it's Dubya's,
Polish, Hitler's, Mussolini, Brazilian, or whatever. All driven by
prejudice and inferiority complexes.)
Nov 28th 2003, 6:16 am
#38
Guest
Posts: n/a
Re: Eastern Europe--best atmosphere?
In article <[email protected]>,
Deep Freud Moors <deepfreudmoors@eITmISaACTUALLYiREAL!l.nu> wrote:
> >Is it so difficult to accept what the people living in these areas
> >actually think, rather than stick doggedly to a cold-war era European
> >map with an Iron curtain descending from Stettin to Trieste? It is worth
> >noting that the 1990's have been described by many historians as 'the
> >rebirth of Central Europe'.
> >
> >1989 was almost 15 years ago, please stop living in the black/white
> >East/West past.
>
> I have not said/suggested/alluded to ANY of the above .
>
> All I said was that the phrase "Eastern Europe" is still commonly
> used. At no point did I say "Austria is in Western Europe, not Central
> Europe" or "The Czech Republic is in Eastern Europe, not Central
> Europe", but that didn't stop people from assuming that is what I
> meant.
Allow me to quote:
In article <[email protected]>,
Deep Freud Moors <deepfreudmoors@eITmISaACUALLYiREALLY!l.nu > wrote:
> Common usage of the phrase 'eastern Europe' denotes that Austria is in
> western Europe, and the Czech Rep, Hungary, Poland, Slovakia, Croatia,
> Slovenia etc. are in the east.
and:
In article <[email protected]>,
Deep Freud Moors <deepfreudmoors@eITmISaACTUALLYiREAL!l.nu> wrote:
> People still frequently use the phrase 'Eastern Europe'. I don't
> believe this is in anyway incorrect. Some countries would obviously
> rather disassociate themselves from the phrase, due to it's
> simlilarity to "Eastern Bloc", which reminds them of a patch of
> history they'd obviously rather forget.
Ivan
Deep Freud Moors <deepfreudmoors@eITmISaACTUALLYiREAL!l.nu> wrote:
> >Is it so difficult to accept what the people living in these areas
> >actually think, rather than stick doggedly to a cold-war era European
> >map with an Iron curtain descending from Stettin to Trieste? It is worth
> >noting that the 1990's have been described by many historians as 'the
> >rebirth of Central Europe'.
> >
> >1989 was almost 15 years ago, please stop living in the black/white
> >East/West past.
>
> I have not said/suggested/alluded to ANY of the above .
>
> All I said was that the phrase "Eastern Europe" is still commonly
> used. At no point did I say "Austria is in Western Europe, not Central
> Europe" or "The Czech Republic is in Eastern Europe, not Central
> Europe", but that didn't stop people from assuming that is what I
> meant.
Allow me to quote:
In article <[email protected]>,
Deep Freud Moors <deepfreudmoors@eITmISaACUALLYiREALLY!l.nu > wrote:
> Common usage of the phrase 'eastern Europe' denotes that Austria is in
> western Europe, and the Czech Rep, Hungary, Poland, Slovakia, Croatia,
> Slovenia etc. are in the east.
and:
In article <[email protected]>,
Deep Freud Moors <deepfreudmoors@eITmISaACTUALLYiREAL!l.nu> wrote:
> People still frequently use the phrase 'Eastern Europe'. I don't
> believe this is in anyway incorrect. Some countries would obviously
> rather disassociate themselves from the phrase, due to it's
> simlilarity to "Eastern Bloc", which reminds them of a patch of
> history they'd obviously rather forget.
Ivan
Nov 28th 2003, 8:35 am
#39
Guest
Posts: n/a
Re: Eastern Europe--best atmosphere?
On Wed, 26 Nov 2003 17:02:51 +0100, dion_b <[email protected]> wrote:
>When in Rome do as the Romans, after all
But we're not in Eastern Europe, we're on a travel newsgroup. And around
here the Romans refer to the formerly oppressed countries as "Eastern Europe".
>When in Rome do as the Romans, after all
But we're not in Eastern Europe, we're on a travel newsgroup. And around
here the Romans refer to the formerly oppressed countries as "Eastern Europe".
Nov 28th 2003, 8:55 am
#40
Guest
Posts: n/a
Re: Eastern Europe--best atmosphere?
In article <[email protected]>,
Jesper Lauridsen <[email protected]> wrote:
> When in Rome do as the Romans, after all
>
> But we're not in Eastern Europe, we're on a travel newsgroup. And around
> here the Romans refer to the formerly oppressed countries as "Eastern Europe".
...and the countries formerly occupied by Hitler as "Protectorat."
Ivan
Jesper Lauridsen <[email protected]> wrote:
> When in Rome do as the Romans, after all
>
> But we're not in Eastern Europe, we're on a travel newsgroup. And around
> here the Romans refer to the formerly oppressed countries as "Eastern Europe".
...and the countries formerly occupied by Hitler as "Protectorat."
Ivan
Nov 28th 2003, 11:52 am
#41
Guest
Posts: n/a
Re: Eastern Europe--best atmosphere?
On Fri, 28 Nov 2003 14:16:00 -0500, Ivan Sever <[email protected]>
wrote:
>In article <[email protected]>,
> Deep Freud Moors <deepfreudmoors@eITmISaACTUALLYiREAL!l.nu> wrote:
>> >Is it so difficult to accept what the people living in these areas
>> >actually think, rather than stick doggedly to a cold-war era European
>> >map with an Iron curtain descending from Stettin to Trieste? It is worth
>> >noting that the 1990's have been described by many historians as 'the
>> >rebirth of Central Europe'.
>> >
>> >1989 was almost 15 years ago, please stop living in the black/white
>> >East/West past.
>>
>> I have not said/suggested/alluded to ANY of the above .
>>
>> All I said was that the phrase "Eastern Europe" is still commonly
>> used. At no point did I say "Austria is in Western Europe, not Central
>> Europe" or "The Czech Republic is in Eastern Europe, not Central
>> Europe", but that didn't stop people from assuming that is what I
>> meant.
>Allow me to quote:
>In article <[email protected]>,
> Deep Freud Moors <deepfreudmoors@eITmISaACUALLYiREALLY!l.nu > wrote:
>> Common usage of the phrase 'eastern Europe' denotes that Austria is in
>> western Europe, and the Czech Rep, Hungary, Poland, Slovakia, Croatia,
>> Slovenia etc. are in the east.
>and:
>In article <[email protected]>,
> Deep Freud Moors <deepfreudmoors@eITmISaACTUALLYiREAL!l.nu> wrote:
>> People still frequently use the phrase 'Eastern Europe'. I don't
>> believe this is in anyway incorrect. Some countries would obviously
>> rather disassociate themselves from the phrase, due to it's
>> simlilarity to "Eastern Bloc", which reminds them of a patch of
>> history they'd obviously rather forget.
Thank you. Is anyone still confused?
---
DFM
wrote:
>In article <[email protected]>,
> Deep Freud Moors <deepfreudmoors@eITmISaACTUALLYiREAL!l.nu> wrote:
>> >Is it so difficult to accept what the people living in these areas
>> >actually think, rather than stick doggedly to a cold-war era European
>> >map with an Iron curtain descending from Stettin to Trieste? It is worth
>> >noting that the 1990's have been described by many historians as 'the
>> >rebirth of Central Europe'.
>> >
>> >1989 was almost 15 years ago, please stop living in the black/white
>> >East/West past.
>>
>> I have not said/suggested/alluded to ANY of the above .
>>
>> All I said was that the phrase "Eastern Europe" is still commonly
>> used. At no point did I say "Austria is in Western Europe, not Central
>> Europe" or "The Czech Republic is in Eastern Europe, not Central
>> Europe", but that didn't stop people from assuming that is what I
>> meant.
>Allow me to quote:
>In article <[email protected]>,
> Deep Freud Moors <deepfreudmoors@eITmISaACUALLYiREALLY!l.nu > wrote:
>> Common usage of the phrase 'eastern Europe' denotes that Austria is in
>> western Europe, and the Czech Rep, Hungary, Poland, Slovakia, Croatia,
>> Slovenia etc. are in the east.
>and:
>In article <[email protected]>,
> Deep Freud Moors <deepfreudmoors@eITmISaACTUALLYiREAL!l.nu> wrote:
>> People still frequently use the phrase 'Eastern Europe'. I don't
>> believe this is in anyway incorrect. Some countries would obviously
>> rather disassociate themselves from the phrase, due to it's
>> simlilarity to "Eastern Bloc", which reminds them of a patch of
>> history they'd obviously rather forget.
Thank you. Is anyone still confused?
---
DFM
Nov 28th 2003, 6:07 pm
#42
Guest
Posts: n/a
Re: Eastern Europe--best atmosphere?
devil <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:<[email protected] >...
[cut]
> > Before that, Poland and Lithuania and today territories of Ukraine and
> > Belarus were one state.
>
> And before that, Poland didn't exist...
>
> Actually, there is no Poland on my map either. Circa 1850 or so.
>
> But then, who cares? (Until one brings in all kinds of emotions,
> prejudice, tribal wars etc. Nationalism is evil whether it's Dubya's,
> Polish, Hitler's, Mussolini, Brazilian, or whatever. All driven by
> prejudice and inferiority complexes.)
Show some understanding for us, poor Poles. We are feel somewhat bad
when people argue that before WWI Poland did not exist or have
knowledge of Polish history limited to worst periods of it in XVIII
century and latter.
I was referring to earlier times. oF polish-lithuanian commonwealth
news:<[email protected] >...
[cut]
> > Before that, Poland and Lithuania and today territories of Ukraine and
> > Belarus were one state.
>
> And before that, Poland didn't exist...
>
> Actually, there is no Poland on my map either. Circa 1850 or so.
>
> But then, who cares? (Until one brings in all kinds of emotions,
> prejudice, tribal wars etc. Nationalism is evil whether it's Dubya's,
> Polish, Hitler's, Mussolini, Brazilian, or whatever. All driven by
> prejudice and inferiority complexes.)
Show some understanding for us, poor Poles. We are feel somewhat bad
when people argue that before WWI Poland did not exist or have
knowledge of Polish history limited to worst periods of it in XVIII
century and latter.
I was referring to earlier times. oF polish-lithuanian commonwealth
Nov 29th 2003, 12:52 am
#43
Guest
Posts: n/a
Re: Eastern Europe--best atmosphere?
Suggest you have a look at Vilnius, Lithuania. The old city is a World
Heritage Site. Lots of architecture, history. Lots of churches and
church art. Tons of restoration going on. I spent a week there last
year--I loved it, and would go back. Very reasonably priced right now, too.
Sunny wrote:
>Mature, reasonably experienced, independent, mildly adventurous but not
>foolhardy Aussie travellers are wondering which of the
>cities/towns/villages in Eastern Europe would be recommended to provide
>the best "feel" for a 1 week -2 week visit which could be extended.
>Prague seems popular (too popular, now?) Would Wroclaw be a better
>alternative?
>Our interests are art, architecture, getting to know local history
>rather than wild partying. We prefer to spend quality time in one or two
>places rather than different day/ different city jaunts but open to all
>suggestions as we have not visited this area before.
>Area of interest is from St Petersburg to Dubrovnik and we would be
>departing from London. We have never taken an organised tour before but
>would it be preferable to do so in this region?
>Thanks for any suggestions.
>'Sunny' in Oz
>_________________________
>
Heritage Site. Lots of architecture, history. Lots of churches and
church art. Tons of restoration going on. I spent a week there last
year--I loved it, and would go back. Very reasonably priced right now, too.
Sunny wrote:
>Mature, reasonably experienced, independent, mildly adventurous but not
>foolhardy Aussie travellers are wondering which of the
>cities/towns/villages in Eastern Europe would be recommended to provide
>the best "feel" for a 1 week -2 week visit which could be extended.
>Prague seems popular (too popular, now?) Would Wroclaw be a better
>alternative?
>Our interests are art, architecture, getting to know local history
>rather than wild partying. We prefer to spend quality time in one or two
>places rather than different day/ different city jaunts but open to all
>suggestions as we have not visited this area before.
>Area of interest is from St Petersburg to Dubrovnik and we would be
>departing from London. We have never taken an organised tour before but
>would it be preferable to do so in this region?
>Thanks for any suggestions.
>'Sunny' in Oz
>_________________________
>
Nov 29th 2003, 9:24 am
#44
Guest
Posts: n/a
Re: Eastern Europe--best atmosphere?
On Fri, 28 Nov 2003 23:07:04 -0800, a.d.danilecki wrote:
> devil <[email protected]> wrote in message
> news:<[email protected] >...
> [cut]
>> > Before that, Poland and Lithuania and today territories of Ukraine and
>> > Belarus were one state.
>>
>> And before that, Poland didn't exist...
>>
>> Actually, there is no Poland on my map either. Circa 1850 or so.
>>
>> But then, who cares? (Until one brings in all kinds of emotions,
>> prejudice, tribal wars etc. Nationalism is evil whether it's Dubya's,
>> Polish, Hitler's, Mussolini, Brazilian, or whatever. All driven by
>> prejudice and inferiority complexes.)
>
> Show some understanding for us, poor Poles. We are feel somewhat bad
> when people argue that before WWI Poland did not exist or have
> knowledge of Polish history limited to worst periods of it in XVIII
> century and latter.
>
> I was referring to earlier times. oF polish-lithuanian commonwealth
Sure there were these elected kings in Kracow, wars with Swedes etc. But
look, looking back in its past long enough, any tribe will eventually find
some argument in support of nationalism (AKA the inferiority complex
thing). France can talk about Gauls or Franks, I guess. Germany didn't
exist until the 19th century; which incidentally doesn't seem to
bother them at all.
> devil <[email protected]> wrote in message
> news:<[email protected] >...
> [cut]
>> > Before that, Poland and Lithuania and today territories of Ukraine and
>> > Belarus were one state.
>>
>> And before that, Poland didn't exist...
>>
>> Actually, there is no Poland on my map either. Circa 1850 or so.
>>
>> But then, who cares? (Until one brings in all kinds of emotions,
>> prejudice, tribal wars etc. Nationalism is evil whether it's Dubya's,
>> Polish, Hitler's, Mussolini, Brazilian, or whatever. All driven by
>> prejudice and inferiority complexes.)
>
> Show some understanding for us, poor Poles. We are feel somewhat bad
> when people argue that before WWI Poland did not exist or have
> knowledge of Polish history limited to worst periods of it in XVIII
> century and latter.
>
> I was referring to earlier times. oF polish-lithuanian commonwealth
Sure there were these elected kings in Kracow, wars with Swedes etc. But
look, looking back in its past long enough, any tribe will eventually find
some argument in support of nationalism (AKA the inferiority complex
thing). France can talk about Gauls or Franks, I guess. Germany didn't
exist until the 19th century; which incidentally doesn't seem to
bother them at all.
Nov 29th 2003, 1:04 pm
#45
Guest
Posts: n/a
Re: Eastern Europe--best atmosphere?
Deep Freud Moors wrote:
> On Fri, 28 Nov 2003 14:16:00 -0500, Ivan Sever <[email protected]>
> wrote:
>
> >In article <[email protected]>,
> > Deep Freud Moors <deepfreudmoors@eITmISaACTUALLYiREAL!l.nu> wrote:
> >
> >> >Is it so difficult to accept what the people living in these areas
> >> >actually think, rather than stick doggedly to a cold-war era European
> >> >map with an Iron curtain descending from Stettin to Trieste? It is worth
> >> >noting that the 1990's have been described by many historians as 'the
> >> >rebirth of Central Europe'.
> >> >
> >> >1989 was almost 15 years ago, please stop living in the black/white
> >> >East/West past.
> >>
> >> I have not said/suggested/alluded to ANY of the above .
> >>
> >> All I said was that the phrase "Eastern Europe" is still commonly
> >> used. At no point did I say "Austria is in Western Europe, not Central
> >> Europe" or "The Czech Republic is in Eastern Europe, not Central
> >> Europe", but that didn't stop people from assuming that is what I
> >> meant.
> >
> >
> >Allow me to quote:
> >
> >In article <[email protected]>,
> > Deep Freud Moors <deepfreudmoors@eITmISaACUALLYiREALLY!l.nu > wrote:
> >
> >> Common usage of the phrase 'eastern Europe' denotes that Austria is in
> >> western Europe, and the Czech Rep, Hungary, Poland, Slovakia, Croatia,
> >> Slovenia etc. are in the east.
> >
> >and:
> >
> >In article <[email protected]>,
> > Deep Freud Moors <deepfreudmoors@eITmISaACTUALLYiREAL!l.nu> wrote:
> >
> >> People still frequently use the phrase 'Eastern Europe'. I don't
> >> believe this is in anyway incorrect. Some countries would obviously
> >> rather disassociate themselves from the phrase, due to it's
> >> simlilarity to "Eastern Bloc", which reminds them of a patch of
> >> history they'd obviously rather forget.
>
> Thank you. Is anyone still confused?
Well, isn't it true that Prague is *west* of Vienna...???
--
Best
Greg
> On Fri, 28 Nov 2003 14:16:00 -0500, Ivan Sever <[email protected]>
> wrote:
>
> >In article <[email protected]>,
> > Deep Freud Moors <deepfreudmoors@eITmISaACTUALLYiREAL!l.nu> wrote:
> >
> >> >Is it so difficult to accept what the people living in these areas
> >> >actually think, rather than stick doggedly to a cold-war era European
> >> >map with an Iron curtain descending from Stettin to Trieste? It is worth
> >> >noting that the 1990's have been described by many historians as 'the
> >> >rebirth of Central Europe'.
> >> >
> >> >1989 was almost 15 years ago, please stop living in the black/white
> >> >East/West past.
> >>
> >> I have not said/suggested/alluded to ANY of the above .
> >>
> >> All I said was that the phrase "Eastern Europe" is still commonly
> >> used. At no point did I say "Austria is in Western Europe, not Central
> >> Europe" or "The Czech Republic is in Eastern Europe, not Central
> >> Europe", but that didn't stop people from assuming that is what I
> >> meant.
> >
> >
> >Allow me to quote:
> >
> >In article <[email protected]>,
> > Deep Freud Moors <deepfreudmoors@eITmISaACUALLYiREALLY!l.nu > wrote:
> >
> >> Common usage of the phrase 'eastern Europe' denotes that Austria is in
> >> western Europe, and the Czech Rep, Hungary, Poland, Slovakia, Croatia,
> >> Slovenia etc. are in the east.
> >
> >and:
> >
> >In article <[email protected]>,
> > Deep Freud Moors <deepfreudmoors@eITmISaACTUALLYiREAL!l.nu> wrote:
> >
> >> People still frequently use the phrase 'Eastern Europe'. I don't
> >> believe this is in anyway incorrect. Some countries would obviously
> >> rather disassociate themselves from the phrase, due to it's
> >> simlilarity to "Eastern Bloc", which reminds them of a patch of
> >> history they'd obviously rather forget.
>
> Thank you. Is anyone still confused?
Well, isn't it true that Prague is *west* of Vienna...???
--
Best
Greg
