Dutch envoy flees Estonian abuse
Jun 7th 2006, 6:48 am
#1
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Dutch envoy flees Estonian abuse
Dutch envoy flees Estonian abuse
The Dutch ambassador to Estonia, Hans Glaubitz, is leaving the country,
complaining of persistent racist and homophobic abuse.
Mr Glaubitz said he and his partner, a black Cuban man, were regularly
insulted when they went out.
An Estonian foreign ministry spokesman said the men had been well
received at an official level, but expressed "regret" over any public
abuse.
Mr Glaubitz is to be posted to Canada to become consul-general in
Montreal.
He told Dutch newspapers: "It is not very nice to be regularly abused
by drunken skinheads as a 'nigger' and to be continuously gawped at as
if you have just stepped out of a UFO."
While the Netherlands has a reputation as one of the most liberal
countries in Europe, having legalised same-sex marriage in 2000,
Estonia has "not really gone through the enlightenment revolution",
according to Rainer Kattel, professor of political science from Tallinn
University.
"Estonia does have latent racism, but it is not violent like in other
countries. If you are openly gay and of a different race people will
make mean comments to you," he said.
The Dutch ambassador to Estonia, Hans Glaubitz, is leaving the country,
complaining of persistent racist and homophobic abuse.
Mr Glaubitz said he and his partner, a black Cuban man, were regularly
insulted when they went out.
An Estonian foreign ministry spokesman said the men had been well
received at an official level, but expressed "regret" over any public
abuse.
Mr Glaubitz is to be posted to Canada to become consul-general in
Montreal.
He told Dutch newspapers: "It is not very nice to be regularly abused
by drunken skinheads as a 'nigger' and to be continuously gawped at as
if you have just stepped out of a UFO."
While the Netherlands has a reputation as one of the most liberal
countries in Europe, having legalised same-sex marriage in 2000,
Estonia has "not really gone through the enlightenment revolution",
according to Rainer Kattel, professor of political science from Tallinn
University.
"Estonia does have latent racism, but it is not violent like in other
countries. If you are openly gay and of a different race people will
make mean comments to you," he said.
Jun 7th 2006, 5:35 pm
#2
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Posts: n/a
Re: Dutch envoy flees Estonian abuse
Eddy Merckx wrote:
> "Estonia does have latent racism, but it is not violent like in other
> countries. If you are openly gay and of a different race people will
> make mean comments to you," he said.
How very true, but the racism is not that latent. Don't know about gays
but the large russian minority - most of them born in Estonia - are
usually seen on and treated very badly, not only by the common estonian
but also by the Estonian government.
r/
> "Estonia does have latent racism, but it is not violent like in other
> countries. If you are openly gay and of a different race people will
> make mean comments to you," he said.
How very true, but the racism is not that latent. Don't know about gays
but the large russian minority - most of them born in Estonia - are
usually seen on and treated very badly, not only by the common estonian
but also by the Estonian government.
r/
Jun 7th 2006, 5:52 pm
#3
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Posts: n/a
Re: Dutch envoy flees Estonian abuse
Lasse wrote:
> Eddy Merckx wrote:
> >
> > "Estonia does have latent racism, but it is not violent like in other
> > countries. If you are openly gay and of a different race people will
> > make mean comments to you," he said.
> How very true, but the racism is not that latent. Don't know about gays
> but the large russian minority - most of them born in Estonia - are
> usually seen on and treated very badly, not only by the common estonian
> but also by the Estonian government.
And very naturally so -- Russians were the oppressors for many years
and now they on the other end of the stick. It's quite natural for
Estonians to treat them badly...I daresay it's even somewhat justified.
--
Best
Greg
> Eddy Merckx wrote:
> >
> > "Estonia does have latent racism, but it is not violent like in other
> > countries. If you are openly gay and of a different race people will
> > make mean comments to you," he said.
> How very true, but the racism is not that latent. Don't know about gays
> but the large russian minority - most of them born in Estonia - are
> usually seen on and treated very badly, not only by the common estonian
> but also by the Estonian government.
And very naturally so -- Russians were the oppressors for many years
and now they on the other end of the stick. It's quite natural for
Estonians to treat them badly...I daresay it's even somewhat justified.
--
Best
Greg
Jun 7th 2006, 6:05 pm
#4
Guest
Posts: n/a
Re: Dutch envoy flees Estonian abuse
Gregory Morrow wrote:
> >
> > How very true, but the racism is not that latent. Don't know about gays
> > but the large russian minority - most of them born in Estonia - are
> > usually seen on and treated very badly, not only by the common estonian
> > but also by the Estonian government.
> And very naturally so -- Russians were the oppressors for many years
> and now they on the other end of the stick. It's quite natural for
> Estonians to treat them badly...I daresay it's even somewhat justified.
Yes, I can understand why Estonians in general loathe the russians -
but that should not be encourged by the government as it is know. And
to call it justified is frightening, that is a thougt that justifies
genocides in the very end.
> >
> > How very true, but the racism is not that latent. Don't know about gays
> > but the large russian minority - most of them born in Estonia - are
> > usually seen on and treated very badly, not only by the common estonian
> > but also by the Estonian government.
> And very naturally so -- Russians were the oppressors for many years
> and now they on the other end of the stick. It's quite natural for
> Estonians to treat them badly...I daresay it's even somewhat justified.
Yes, I can understand why Estonians in general loathe the russians -
but that should not be encourged by the government as it is know. And
to call it justified is frightening, that is a thougt that justifies
genocides in the very end.
Jun 7th 2006, 6:28 pm
#5
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Posts: n/a
Re: Dutch envoy flees Estonian abuse
Lasse wrote:
> Gregory Morrow wrote:
> > >
> > > How very true, but the racism is not that latent. Don't know about gays
> > > but the large russian minority - most of them born in Estonia - are
> > > usually seen on and treated very badly, not only by the common estonian
> > > but also by the Estonian government.
> >
> >
> > And very naturally so -- Russians were the oppressors for many years
> > and now they on the other end of the stick. It's quite natural for
> > Estonians to treat them badly...I daresay it's even somewhat justified.
> >
> Yes, I can understand why Estonians in general loathe the russians -
> but that should not be encourged by the government as it is know.
What is the government "encouraging"? That the Russian colonists
should learn Estonian in order to gain the full benefits of Estonian
citizenship? That Estonian should be the primary language of
schooling, of civil life? Sounds pretty fair to me...
And
> to call it justified is frightening, that is a thougt that justifies
> genocides in the very end.
If any Russians in Estonia don't like their situation, they can always
pack up and return to Mother Russia. Pinhead Putin has been braying
lately about the demographic catastrophe in Russia, so I'm sure he'll
welcome any Russian Estonians back with open arms.
This whole Poor WIddle Russians vs. Those Big Mean Baltics makes me
laugh. It's a perfect case of where the perps, e.g. the Russians, are
now claiming to be the victims. The Russians are getting exactly what
they deserve -- and they should be overjoyed that they haven't suffered
*far* worse...
--
Best
Greg
> Gregory Morrow wrote:
> > >
> > > How very true, but the racism is not that latent. Don't know about gays
> > > but the large russian minority - most of them born in Estonia - are
> > > usually seen on and treated very badly, not only by the common estonian
> > > but also by the Estonian government.
> >
> >
> > And very naturally so -- Russians were the oppressors for many years
> > and now they on the other end of the stick. It's quite natural for
> > Estonians to treat them badly...I daresay it's even somewhat justified.
> >
> Yes, I can understand why Estonians in general loathe the russians -
> but that should not be encourged by the government as it is know.
What is the government "encouraging"? That the Russian colonists
should learn Estonian in order to gain the full benefits of Estonian
citizenship? That Estonian should be the primary language of
schooling, of civil life? Sounds pretty fair to me...
And
> to call it justified is frightening, that is a thougt that justifies
> genocides in the very end.
If any Russians in Estonia don't like their situation, they can always
pack up and return to Mother Russia. Pinhead Putin has been braying
lately about the demographic catastrophe in Russia, so I'm sure he'll
welcome any Russian Estonians back with open arms.
This whole Poor WIddle Russians vs. Those Big Mean Baltics makes me
laugh. It's a perfect case of where the perps, e.g. the Russians, are
now claiming to be the victims. The Russians are getting exactly what
they deserve -- and they should be overjoyed that they haven't suffered
*far* worse...
--
Best
Greg
Jun 7th 2006, 9:09 pm
#6
Guest
Posts: n/a
Re: Dutch envoy flees Estonian abuse
"Lasse" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected] ups.com...
> Eddy Merckx wrote:
>> "Estonia does have latent racism, but it is not violent like in other
>> countries. If you are openly gay and of a different race people will
>> make mean comments to you," he said.
> How very true, but the racism is not that latent. Don't know about gays
> but the large russian minority - most of them born in Estonia - are
> usually seen on and treated very badly, not only by the common estonian
> but also by the Estonian government.
For the simple reason that for generations they were the oppressors
of Estonians. It unfortunate that the current generation are being
made to pay for the deeds of their fathers and grandfathers but
its human nature I guess.
Keith
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> Eddy Merckx wrote:
>> "Estonia does have latent racism, but it is not violent like in other
>> countries. If you are openly gay and of a different race people will
>> make mean comments to you," he said.
> How very true, but the racism is not that latent. Don't know about gays
> but the large russian minority - most of them born in Estonia - are
> usually seen on and treated very badly, not only by the common estonian
> but also by the Estonian government.
For the simple reason that for generations they were the oppressors
of Estonians. It unfortunate that the current generation are being
made to pay for the deeds of their fathers and grandfathers but
its human nature I guess.
Keith
----== Posted via Newsfeeds.Com - Unlimited-Unrestricted-Secure Usenet News==----
http://www.newsfeeds.com The #1 Newsgroup Service in the World! 120,000+ Newsgroups
----= East and West-Coast Server Farms - Total Privacy via Encryption =----
Jun 8th 2006, 3:47 am
#7
Guest
Posts: n/a
Re: Dutch envoy flees Estonian abuse
Lasse wrote:
> Eddy Merckx wrote:
>
>
>>"Estonia does have latent racism, but it is not violent like in other
>>countries. If you are openly gay and of a different race people will
>>make mean comments to you," he said.
>
>
> How very true, but the racism is not that latent. Don't know about gays
> but the large russian minority - most of them born in Estonia - are
> usually seen on and treated very badly, not only by the common estonian
> but also by the Estonian government.
>
> r/
>
Then again are they trying to assimilate and learn Estonian or are they
trying to take over the place?
> Eddy Merckx wrote:
>
>
>>"Estonia does have latent racism, but it is not violent like in other
>>countries. If you are openly gay and of a different race people will
>>make mean comments to you," he said.
>
>
> How very true, but the racism is not that latent. Don't know about gays
> but the large russian minority - most of them born in Estonia - are
> usually seen on and treated very badly, not only by the common estonian
> but also by the Estonian government.
>
> r/
>
Then again are they trying to assimilate and learn Estonian or are they
trying to take over the place?
Jun 10th 2006, 3:14 am
#8
Guest
Posts: n/a
Re: Dutch envoy flees Estonian abuse
"Gregory Morrow" <[email protected]> wrote in
news:[email protected] oups.com:
>> How very true, but the racism is not that latent. Don't know about gays
>> but the large russian minority - most of them born in Estonia - are
>> usually seen on and treated very badly, not only by the common estonian
>> but also by the Estonian government.
>
> And very naturally so -- Russians were the oppressors for many years
> and now they on the other end of the stick. It's quite natural for
> Estonians to treat them badly...I daresay it's even somewhat justified.
Ordinary people are not responsible for the actions of their
government. Discriminating against anyone because of some political
issue is barbarian. By your logic 911 is justified because the American
government did bad things in the world.
--
It's the post-recession obsession
http://www.wschwanke.de/ usenet_20031215 (AT) wschwanke (DOT) de
news:[email protected] oups.com:
>> How very true, but the racism is not that latent. Don't know about gays
>> but the large russian minority - most of them born in Estonia - are
>> usually seen on and treated very badly, not only by the common estonian
>> but also by the Estonian government.
>
> And very naturally so -- Russians were the oppressors for many years
> and now they on the other end of the stick. It's quite natural for
> Estonians to treat them badly...I daresay it's even somewhat justified.
Ordinary people are not responsible for the actions of their
government. Discriminating against anyone because of some political
issue is barbarian. By your logic 911 is justified because the American
government did bad things in the world.
--
It's the post-recession obsession
http://www.wschwanke.de/ usenet_20031215 (AT) wschwanke (DOT) de
Jun 10th 2006, 3:35 am
#9
Guest
Posts: n/a
Re: Dutch envoy flees Estonian abuse
"Wolfgang Schwanke" <[email protected]> kirjoitti
viestiss�:[email protected]...
>> Estonians to treat them badly...I daresay it's even somewhat justified.
> Ordinary people are not responsible for the actions of their
> government. Discriminating against anyone because of some political
> issue is barbarian. By your logic 911 is justified because the American
> government did bad things in the world.
In the past a story about three cosmonauts were told. One was US American,
one was Russian and the third one was Estonian. They manned a space shuttle
during the era of the Mighty Soviet Union. When the vehicle was above the
American continent the American left his seat and walked to the door, opened
it and emptied his rucksack. Lots of greenback banking notes were hovering
in the sky. Then he took his seat by saying "this stuff is an endless
resource in my country".
Some time after this incident the space ship was orbiting above the vast
lands of the Soviet Union. The Russian member was so impressed on the
behaviour of the American that he repeated his effort: left his seat, went
to the door to open it and emptied the context of his bag. Lots of bottles
of vodka were on their way to the ground. When back to his seat he tried not
to show his pride but to stay most calm when he said: "this stuff is eternal
and abundant in my country".
Finally the space craft arrived in the tiny Soviet Republic of Estonia. The
Estonian chap stood up and escorted the Russian fellow to the door and open
it. Then he positioned the Russian on the doorway and from behind kicked him
out from the vehicle. When back to his seat, he said to the American: "this
stuff is about as populous in Estonia as mosquitos in Alaska during the
summer".
viestiss�:[email protected]...
>> Estonians to treat them badly...I daresay it's even somewhat justified.
> Ordinary people are not responsible for the actions of their
> government. Discriminating against anyone because of some political
> issue is barbarian. By your logic 911 is justified because the American
> government did bad things in the world.
In the past a story about three cosmonauts were told. One was US American,
one was Russian and the third one was Estonian. They manned a space shuttle
during the era of the Mighty Soviet Union. When the vehicle was above the
American continent the American left his seat and walked to the door, opened
it and emptied his rucksack. Lots of greenback banking notes were hovering
in the sky. Then he took his seat by saying "this stuff is an endless
resource in my country".
Some time after this incident the space ship was orbiting above the vast
lands of the Soviet Union. The Russian member was so impressed on the
behaviour of the American that he repeated his effort: left his seat, went
to the door to open it and emptied the context of his bag. Lots of bottles
of vodka were on their way to the ground. When back to his seat he tried not
to show his pride but to stay most calm when he said: "this stuff is eternal
and abundant in my country".
Finally the space craft arrived in the tiny Soviet Republic of Estonia. The
Estonian chap stood up and escorted the Russian fellow to the door and open
it. Then he positioned the Russian on the doorway and from behind kicked him
out from the vehicle. When back to his seat, he said to the American: "this
stuff is about as populous in Estonia as mosquitos in Alaska during the
summer".
Jun 10th 2006, 3:56 am
#10
Guest
Posts: n/a
Re: Dutch envoy flees Estonian abuse
Dave Frightens Me <deepfreudmoors@eITmISaACTUALLYiREAL!l.nu> wrote in
news:[email protected]:
>>Ordinary people are not responsible for the actions of their
>>government.
>
> Actually, in a democracy they are.
Only in a perfect direct democracy, and even then only on an abstract
level as a collective, but not individually as persons. In a
representative democracy, the government is elected, but between
elections they practically do what they want to without control by the
people. The Russians, OTOH, had no democracy most of the time. And were
there no Estonians in the Communist Party who took part in the
dictatorship?
>>issue is barbarian. By your logic 911 is justified because the
>>American government did bad things in the world.
>
> I believe they reaped what they sowed.
I think New Yorkans are quite nice people, don't you?
Regards
--
It's the post-recession obsession
http://www.wschwanke.de/ usenet_20031215 (AT) wschwanke (DOT) de
news:[email protected]:
>>Ordinary people are not responsible for the actions of their
>>government.
>
> Actually, in a democracy they are.
Only in a perfect direct democracy, and even then only on an abstract
level as a collective, but not individually as persons. In a
representative democracy, the government is elected, but between
elections they practically do what they want to without control by the
people. The Russians, OTOH, had no democracy most of the time. And were
there no Estonians in the Communist Party who took part in the
dictatorship?
>>issue is barbarian. By your logic 911 is justified because the
>>American government did bad things in the world.
>
> I believe they reaped what they sowed.
I think New Yorkans are quite nice people, don't you?
Regards
--
It's the post-recession obsession
http://www.wschwanke.de/ usenet_20031215 (AT) wschwanke (DOT) de
Jun 10th 2006, 4:57 am
#11
Guest
Posts: n/a
Re: Dutch envoy flees Estonian abuse
On Sat, 10 Jun 2006 17:14:25 +0200, Wolfgang Schwanke <[email protected]>
wrote:
>"Gregory Morrow" <[email protected]> wrote in
>news:[email protected] roups.com:
>>> How very true, but the racism is not that latent. Don't know about gays
>>> but the large russian minority - most of them born in Estonia - are
>>> usually seen on and treated very badly, not only by the common estonian
>>> but also by the Estonian government.
>>
>> And very naturally so -- Russians were the oppressors for many years
>> and now they on the other end of the stick. It's quite natural for
>> Estonians to treat them badly...I daresay it's even somewhat justified.
>Ordinary people are not responsible for the actions of their
>government.
Actually, in a democracy they are.
> Discriminating against anyone because of some political
>issue is barbarian. By your logic 911 is justified because the American
>government did bad things in the world.
I believe they reaped what they sowed.
--
---
DFM - http://www.deepfriedmars.com
---
--
wrote:
>"Gregory Morrow" <[email protected]> wrote in
>news:[email protected] roups.com:
>>> How very true, but the racism is not that latent. Don't know about gays
>>> but the large russian minority - most of them born in Estonia - are
>>> usually seen on and treated very badly, not only by the common estonian
>>> but also by the Estonian government.
>>
>> And very naturally so -- Russians were the oppressors for many years
>> and now they on the other end of the stick. It's quite natural for
>> Estonians to treat them badly...I daresay it's even somewhat justified.
>Ordinary people are not responsible for the actions of their
>government.
Actually, in a democracy they are.
> Discriminating against anyone because of some political
>issue is barbarian. By your logic 911 is justified because the American
>government did bad things in the world.
I believe they reaped what they sowed.
--
---
DFM - http://www.deepfriedmars.com
---
--
Jun 10th 2006, 6:26 am
#12
Guest
Posts: n/a
Re: Dutch envoy flees Estonian abuse
On Sat, 10 Jun 2006 17:56:45 +0200, Wolfgang Schwanke <[email protected]>
wrote:
>Dave Frightens Me <deepfreudmoors@eITmISaACTUALLYiREAL!l.nu> wrote in
>news:[email protected] :
>>>Ordinary people are not responsible for the actions of their
>>>government.
>>
>> Actually, in a democracy they are.
>Only in a perfect direct democracy, and even then only on an abstract
>level as a collective, but not individually as persons. In a
>representative democracy, the government is elected, but between
>elections they practically do what they want to without control by the
>people. The Russians, OTOH, had no democracy most of the time. And were
>there no Estonians in the Communist Party who took part in the
>dictatorship?
When it all boils down to it, democracy is about personal
responsibility, and that includes suffering due to one's nationality
as well as benefitting from it.
Anyway, that bullshit's been talked about ad infinitum. I quite like
the US model, where the opinion polls have far more effect that any
election farce. I don't envy their lifestyle though.
>>>issue is barbarian. By your logic 911 is justified because the
>>>American government did bad things in the world.
>>
>> I believe they reaped what they sowed.
>I think New Yorkans are quite nice people, don't you?
So are the Iraqis. Bad stuff happens to nice people.
--
---
DFM - http://www.deepfriedmars.com
---
--
wrote:
>Dave Frightens Me <deepfreudmoors@eITmISaACTUALLYiREAL!l.nu> wrote in
>news:[email protected] :
>>>Ordinary people are not responsible for the actions of their
>>>government.
>>
>> Actually, in a democracy they are.
>Only in a perfect direct democracy, and even then only on an abstract
>level as a collective, but not individually as persons. In a
>representative democracy, the government is elected, but between
>elections they practically do what they want to without control by the
>people. The Russians, OTOH, had no democracy most of the time. And were
>there no Estonians in the Communist Party who took part in the
>dictatorship?
When it all boils down to it, democracy is about personal
responsibility, and that includes suffering due to one's nationality
as well as benefitting from it.
Anyway, that bullshit's been talked about ad infinitum. I quite like
the US model, where the opinion polls have far more effect that any
election farce. I don't envy their lifestyle though.
>>>issue is barbarian. By your logic 911 is justified because the
>>>American government did bad things in the world.
>>
>> I believe they reaped what they sowed.
>I think New Yorkans are quite nice people, don't you?
So are the Iraqis. Bad stuff happens to nice people.
--
---
DFM - http://www.deepfriedmars.com
---
--
