Sufaud

Spain fails to rain on Gibraltar's parade
By Isambard Wilkinson in Gibraltar

Daily Telegraph
(Filed: 05/08/2004)

Gibraltar defiantly celebrated 300 years of British ownership
yesterday, casting aside a barrage of protests from the Spanish
government.

After weeks of controversy sparked by Spain's opposition to the
celebrations, the people of Gibraltar flooded their streets in joyous
remembrance of the colony's ties to the mother country.


Photo:
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/grap.../05/wgib05.jpg
Caption:
Around 17,00[0] Gibraltarians linked hands around the Rock to mark the
300th anniversary


About 17,000 people, more than half the population, dressed in
Gibraltar's colours of red and white and waving Union flags, linked
hands to encircle the Rock in a three-mile-long human chain
symbolising their unity.

Gibraltar's chief minister, Peter Caruana, capped a day of
celebrations in an address to the colony's parliament. "We are proud
of our history and make no apology for it," he said.

"We are celebrating 300 years of British sovereignty and all that it
means for us," he added, in Spanish. In the presence of the Defence
Secretary, Geoff Hoon, a motion was unanimously passed in the 17-seat
parliament pledging "to resist and oppose" any transfer of sovereignty
to Spain.

However, Mr Caruana reminded Britain that although Gibraltar wanted to
remain British, it wanted to lose its colonial status.

One young politician, Joseph Garcia, said it was time for Spaniards to
realise "that they lost Gibraltar 300 years ago. Times have moved on.
Our future can only be decided by ourselves."
Â

Photo:
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/grap...05/wgib05a.jpg
Caption:
Geoff Hoon joins in the celebrations yesterday


The involvement of Mr Hoon and the Royal Navy's most senior officer in
the celebrations has irked Madrid, which accused Britain of clinging
to its imperial past.

Spanish officials have also protested at the recent visit to Gibraltar
of the Princess Royal and the nuclear-powered submarine Tireless.

"It is strange in the 21st century that the military occupation of
part of one member state by another should be commemorated within the
European Union," the Spanish foreign minister, Miguel Angel Moratinos,
told the Madrid daily El Pais.

Spain's socialist prime minister, Jose Luis Zapatero, made clear
yesterday that his country was not abandoning its historic claim.

"We have a problem 300 years old," he said. "We have to approach it
with caution, with tranquillity and with dialogue.

"We are going to give ourselves a little time, and we hope that we
will be able to open an opportunity for dialogue."

But his government will have noted the absence of conciliatory words
from London, which feels no need to appease Spain's new Left-wing
government.

Spain angered both London and Washington by withdrawing its troops
from Iraq after the March 11 Islamist attacks in Madrid which killed
191 commuters. Mr Hoon said Madrid had been seeking a more
constructive relationship with Gibraltar.

But the question of sovereignty was "not on the table", he said.


http://news.telegraph.co.uk/news/mai.../05/wgib05.xml

The Reids

Following up to Sufaud

    >Gibraltar defiantly celebrated 300 years of British ownership
    >yesterday, casting aside a barrage of protests from the Spanish
    >government.

They should put up big signs facing the border:-

¿Cuerta? ¿Melilla?
--
Mike Reid
If god wanted us to be vegetarians he wouldn't have made animals out of meat.
Wasdale-Lake district-Thames path-London "http://www.fellwalk.co.uk" <-- you can email us@ this site
Eat-walk-Spain "http://www.fell-walker.co.uk" <-- dontuse@ all, it's a spamtrap

Klishpov

    >Subject: Re: DTel: Gibraltar defiantly celebrates 300 years of British
    >ownership
    >From: The Reids [email protected]
    >Date: 8/5/2004 7:06 AM Eastern Standard Time
    >Message-id: <[email protected]>

    >They should put up big signs facing the border:-
    >¿Cuerta? ¿Melilla?
    >--
    >Mike Reid
    >If god wanted us to be vegetarians he wouldn't have made animals out of meat.



Of course the fact that Ceuta and Melilla WERE FOUNDED BY SPAIN 500 years ago
when there was absolutely nothing remotely similar to such a thing as "the
kingdom of Morocco" bears a lot of resemblance to the Gibraltar situation
right?. Maybe that's why there is no claim whatsoever to Ceuta and Melilla in
the UN by Morocco?. Yes, Ceuta and Melilla are a perfect good reason to justify
the british occupation of Gibraltar. Plus Spain had weapons of mass destruction
at the time of the invasion so everything is for a good cause. The british are
heroes. God save them. And God save us from them.

Donald Newcomb

"Sufaud" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
    > Spain fails to rain on Gibraltar's parade
    > By Isambard Wilkinson in Gibraltar

I contend that if the Spanish really want Gibraltar back, they should be
willing to return a little former British territory they're holding on to:
Minorca. Sounds like a fair trade to me. ;-)

--
Donald Newcomb
DRNewcomb (at) attglobal (dot) net

ThePrudentMariner

"Klishpov" wrote

<<Yes, Ceuta and Melilla are a perfect good reason to justify
the british occupation of Gibraltar. The british are
heroes. God save them. >>

It is extremely gratifying to see such encouragement towards Britain in the
current climate of sour grapes.

A.Spencer3

"The Reids" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
    > Following up to Sufaud
    > >Gibraltar defiantly celebrated 300 years of British ownership
    > >yesterday, casting aside a barrage of protests from the Spanish
    > >government.
    > They should put up big signs facing the border:-
    > ¿Cuerta? ¿Melilla?
    > --

Point is, Morocco has no objection to the enclaves!

Surreyman

Miguel Cruz

a.spencer3 <[email protected]> wrote:
    > "The Reids" <[email protected]> wrote:
    >> Following up to Sufaud
    >>> Gibraltar defiantly celebrated 300 years of British ownership
    >>> yesterday, casting aside a barrage of protests from the Spanish
    >>> government.
    >> They should put up big signs facing the border:-
    >> ¿Cuerta? ¿Melilla?
    > Point is, Morocco has no objection to the enclaves!

That could be a "people who live in glass houses" sort of self-censorship
relating to Western Sahara.

miguel
--
Hit The Road! Photos and tales from around the world: http://travel.u.nu

Klishpov

    >Subject: Re: DTel: Gibraltar defiantly celebrates 300 years of British
    >ownership
    >From: Miguel Cruz [email protected]
    >Date: 8/5/2004 12:40 PM Eastern Standard Time
    >Message-id: <[email protected]>

    >> Point is, Morocco has no objection to the enclaves!
    >That could be a "people who live in glass houses" sort of self-censorship
    >relating to Western Sahara.


Spain left the Western Sahara in 1975. British monkeys still roam the streets
of Gibraltar.



    >miguel
    >--
    >Hit The Road! Photos and tales from around the world: http://travel.u.nu

Miguel Cruz

Klishpov <[email protected]> wrote:
    > From: Miguel Cruz [email protected]
    >>> Point is, Morocco has no objection to the enclaves!
    >> That could be a "people who live in glass houses" sort of self-censorship
    >> relating to Western Sahara.
    > Spain left the Western Sahara in 1975.

But Morocco sure hasn't. And I'm sure they don't want it made any more of an
issue than it already is. Hence disincentive to raise much of a stink about
Ceuta and Melilla.

miguel
--
Hit The Road! Photos and tales from around the world: http://travel.u.nu

Keith Willshaw

"a.spencer3" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
    > "The Reids" <[email protected]> wrote in message
    > news:[email protected]...
    > > Following up to Sufaud
    > >
    > > >Gibraltar defiantly celebrated 300 years of British ownership
    > > >yesterday, casting aside a barrage of protests from the Spanish
    > > >government.
    > >
    > > They should put up big signs facing the border:-
    > >
    > > ¿Cuerta? ¿Melilla?
    > > --
    > Point is, Morocco has no objection to the enclaves!

This is less than accurate, Morocco claims Ceuta
just as Spain claim Gibraltar.

http://www.wsws.org/articles/1999/se...-s04_prn.shtml
http://edition.cnn.com/2002/WORLD/eu...spain.morocco/

Keith

Keith Willshaw

"Miguel Cruz" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
    > Klishpov <[email protected]> wrote:
    > > From: Miguel Cruz [email protected]
    > >>> Point is, Morocco has no objection to the enclaves!
    > >>
    > >> That could be a "people who live in glass houses" sort of
self-censorship
    > >> relating to Western Sahara.
    > >
    > > Spain left the Western Sahara in 1975.
    > But Morocco sure hasn't. And I'm sure they don't want it made any more of
an
    > issue than it already is. Hence disincentive to raise much of a stink
about
    > Ceuta and Melilla.

Trouble with that theory is that it hasnt worked.

http://news.pacificnews.org/news/vie...article_id=726

Keith

Tam

"a.spencer3" <[email protected]> wrote in message news:<[email protected]>...
    > "The Reids" <[email protected]> wrote in message
    > news:[email protected]...
    > > Following up to Sufaud
    > >
    > > >Gibraltar defiantly celebrated 300 years of British ownership
    > > >yesterday, casting aside a barrage of protests from the Spanish
    > > >government.
    > >
    > > They should put up big signs facing the border:-
    > >
    > > ¿Cuerta? ¿Melilla?
    > > --
    >
    > Point is, Morocco has no objection to the enclaves!

Simply untrue.
http://www.rnw.nl/informarn/html/act020715_perejil.html

Spain just refuses to mention its Imperialistic establishments in the
same breath as Gibraltar, which is -- if anything -- governed
according to the norms of democracy and self-determination.

ThePrudentMariner

<< Spain fails to rain on Gibraltar's parade>>


Under the 1713 Treaty of Utrecht, Spain ceded Gibraltar to Great Britain in
perpetuity. This means forever, not until Spain has the notion to get it
back. A while later, in 1815, under the Treaty of Vienna Spain agreed to
return the Portuguese town of Olivenza, a town currently just inside the
Spain/Portugal border, captured during the Peninsular Wars.

It is still Spanish although Portugal have never relinquished its legitimate
claim. The argument the Spanish Government uses is that the population of
the town wish to remain Spanish.

Heard that one before somewhere?

Klishpov

    >Subject: Re: Gibraltar defiantly celebrates 300 years of British ownership
    >From: "ThePrudentMariner" [email protected]
    >Date: 8/5/2004 3:46 PM Eastern Standard Time
    >Message-id: <[email protected]>
    ><< Spain fails to rain on Gibraltar's parade>>
    >Under the 1713 Treaty of Utrecht, Spain ceded Gibraltar to Great Britain in
    >perpetuity. This means forever, not until Spain has the notion to get it
    >back.

Not true. Under the 1713 Treaty of Utrecht, Gibraltar will be british as long
as it keeps its current status of british colony. For example if Gibraltarians
were to push for self determination or GB lost interest in keeping Gibraltar,
it is clearly specified in the treaty that Spain will regain control of the
Rock. Spain CEDED not GAVE AWAY the right to recover the Rock. The UK is pretty
much condemened to keep possesion of a colony in another European country in
the XXIst century and beyond something that is rather amusing.


A while later, in 1815, under the Treaty of Vienna Spain agreed to
    >return the Portuguese town of Olivenza, a town currently just inside the
    >Spain/Portugal border, captured during the Peninsular Wars.
    >It is still Spanish although Portugal have never relinquished its legitimate
    >claim. The argument the Spanish Government uses is that the population of
    >the town wish to remain Spanish.
    >Heard that one before somewhere?

Yes with the slight difference that the population of Olivenza are descendents
of the original people of Olivenza while in the Gibraltar case less than 3
percent of its population are of spanish gibraltarian origin since all of them
moved out when the british invaded. Most of the so called modern day
gibraltarians are of maltese or corsican descendency.

Imagine that Spain invades Brighton. The english population moves out and Spain
replaces the original population with scoundrels found all over the world that
are allowed to keep their drug trafficking and money laundering businesses so
they remain happy (like the UK does with the "gibraltarians"). Then the UK
asks Spain to give Brighton back because it is English. Spain decides to look
good and ask "the people of Brighton" for their opinion. Basically:


"Would you like to be Spanish and keep your money laundering tax free income no
questions asked way of living or would you like to go back to England and
actually work for living?".


That's exactly what Britain is doing with Gibraltar. It is protecting the
biggest money laundering dump in the world. There are 30,000 people and 90,000
registered companies in Gibraltar. More than 80% of the so called
"gibraltarians" own property and LIVE IN SPAIN not Gibraltar. They have the
best of both worlds. Dirty business in Gibraltar and awesome living in the
Costa del Sol. Would you give that away?. The UK won't be able to hold on to
the rotten apple for too long. The stench is simply too nasty.

Devil

On Thu, 05 Aug 2004 21:28:21 +0000, Klishpov wrote:


    > Not true. Under the 1713 Treaty of Utrecht, Gibraltar will be british as long
    > as it keeps its current status of british colony. For example if Gibraltarians
    > were to push for self determination or GB lost interest in keeping Gibraltar,
    > it is clearly specified in the treaty that Spain will regain control of the
    > Rock. Spain CEDED not GAVE AWAY the right to recover the Rock. The UK is pretty
    > much condemened to keep possesion of a colony in another European country in
    > the XXIst century and beyond something that is rather amusing.

???

I don't see the word "colony" anywhere in the text:

"Rex Catholicus pro se, Haeredibus, & successoribus suis, hisce cedit
Coronae Magnae Britanniae plenam, integramque Proprietatem Urbis & Arcis
Gibraltar nuncupatae, una cum Portu, Munitionibus, Fortalitiisque eodem
pertinentibus, dictamque Proprietatem habendam, fruendamque dat absolute,
cum Jure omnimodo in perpetuum, sine ulla exceptione, vel impedimento
quolibetcunque."

Which in effect says that Gibraltar becomes *property* of the British
crown. To translate that into having the status of a colony is a bit of a
strech, I would say. If Britain wants to make Gibraltar an integral part
of the UK, it seems to me they can.

Here is a fascinating detail BTW:

"Majestas autem Sua Britannica, rogatu Regis Catholici, consentit,
convenitque, ut nec Judaeis, neque Mauris, facultas concedatur in dicta
Urbe Gibraltarica, sub quocunque praetextu commorandi, aut Domicilia
habendi; utque nullum Perfugium, neque receptaculum pateat Maurorum
Navibus bellicis quibuscunque in Portu dictae Urbis, quo Communicatio ab
Hispania ad Septam civitatem impediatur, aut Orae Hispaniae Maurorum
excursionibus infestae reddantur."

Which basically says:

"At the request of the Catholic King, Her Brtiannic Majesty agrees not to
let Jews or Moors take residence in Gibraltar, under no pretext whatsover."

I wonder whether the Queen still enforces that, BTW. :-)



Finally, coming to the transfer of property part:

"Quod si vero Coronae Magnae Britanniae commodum olim visum fuerit,
donare, vendere, aut quoquo modo ab se alienare dictae Urbis Gibraltiricae
proprietatem, conventum hisce concordatumque est, ut prima ante alios ejus
redimendae optio Coronae Hispanicae semper deferatur."

Which gives precendence to Spain if the UK were ever to get rid of the
rock. By donation, sale or any other mode of alienation.

Again, no reference to a colony status. Basically, Gibraltar if for
Britain to keep. But if they don't want it anymore, Spain gets
precedence. Merely precedence, not that it recovers it automatically.