Does a no-fly list exist in Europe or flights to Europe??
Nov 2nd 2004, 10:47 pm
#1
Guest
Posts: n/a
Does a no-fly list exist in Europe or flights to Europe??
"Does a "no-fly" list exist in Europe or flights to Europe??"
Presumably Americans coming to Europe will be subject to
this mysterious control.
There is also a "watch list", meaning you can fly but
they will fine tooth comb the person on the list.
Harold Smith is example.
I have noted than on trips to the US we get fine-toothed
more than others. I had put that down to the fact
that i) our tickets are purchased in Europe; 2)
we have curious itineraries, and 3) we have both US
and French Passports. We don`t get fine-toothed
on flights within Europe. Since we are both elderly
I don't see the fine toothing but I suspect
this lists have many "no rhyme or reasons".
My conclusion is that there is no list as such in
Europe.
Earl
******
Trapped on the list
By Christopher Elliott The New York Times
Wednesday, November 3, 2004
NEW YORK Having your name added to the Transportation Security
Administration's watch list, a register of airline passengers the U.S.
government wants to screen more rigorously, is easy.
Just ask Harold Smith, who works for a specialty surgical-equipment
distributor in Fort Worth, Texas. As he checked in for a flight to Austin
recently, an electronic kiosk rejected his seat assignment request and
referred him to the ticket counter.
An airline employee quietly told him he was "watch listed" and could board
only after law enforcement authorities were called. "I have no idea how my
name got on that list," said Smith, who describes himself as an
average-looking grandfather with a clean record. He was allowed to check in
after a brief wait.
Having your name taken off the security administration's watch list,
however, is not so easy. For three weeks, after being stopped every time he
tried to board a flight, Smith said he begged airline workers and
administration agents for help clearing his name. "The TSA agents I spoke
with didn't know what to do, and they couldn't tell me who the ranking
officer was," he said.
Finally, a sympathetic airline worker offered him a phone number for the
administration's ombudsman, its passenger advocate. The watch list is a
generic term for at least nine government databases estimated to include
more than 40,000 names, according to people familiar with the lists. The
names are divided into a no-fly list of a few thousand people suspected of
terrorist activity or believed to be a threat to national security and a
much larger list of "selectees" who are required to be questioned by the
security administration before boarding.
Despite its size, that second database remains something of a mystery.
According to people with access to it, air travelers can be put into it for
activities like paying for a ticket with cash, booking a seat at the last
minute, flying one way instead of round trip and even arriving at the
airport without luggage.
There is no way to find out if you are on the list until you check in for a
flight. Worse, there may be no way off. Passengers can fill out a disparity
claim with the ombudsman's office, which acts as an intermediary between
passengers like Smith and the security agency. "If it's determined that
you're not the individual that is wanted for further questioning, then the
airlines will receive notification informing them that the specific
individual is not to be detained," said a TSA spokeswoman, Lauren Stover.
But that does not mean they are off the watch list. The agency's Office of
Intelligence, which maintains the list, reports that in September, 680
people filed disparity claims indicating that their names had been mistaken
for individuals wanted by the government for questioning. Of those, the
government cleared 250 people by October.
All that apparently means, however, is that their identities had been
clarified to prevent "false positives" - the names are not necessarily
removed from the databases. In some cases, the agency does delete a
"selectee" from the list, but it will not say how long it takes or what the
criteria are.
Smith is still waiting to find out his exact status. More than a month after
he was tagged, the security administration sent him a Passenger Identity
Verification Form by e-mail, requesting copies of his driver's license
number and voter registration card or military discharge papers, as well as
his height, weight and eye color.
He filled out the form and returned it within a day, but has not heard from
the agency since. Then again, he is no longer being stopped at the airport
and says he expects to be notified soon that he has been cleared.
What if the government decides that a traveler has not been misidentified
and belongs on its watch list? According to the agency, there is no formal
appeals process. Travelers can either accept the decision or, as a last
resort, sue the government.
That is exactly what several travelers did in April, when they filed a
class-action challenge to the watch list with the assistance of the American
Civil Liberties Union.
Presumably Americans coming to Europe will be subject to
this mysterious control.
There is also a "watch list", meaning you can fly but
they will fine tooth comb the person on the list.
Harold Smith is example.
I have noted than on trips to the US we get fine-toothed
more than others. I had put that down to the fact
that i) our tickets are purchased in Europe; 2)
we have curious itineraries, and 3) we have both US
and French Passports. We don`t get fine-toothed
on flights within Europe. Since we are both elderly
I don't see the fine toothing but I suspect
this lists have many "no rhyme or reasons".
My conclusion is that there is no list as such in
Europe.
Earl
******
Trapped on the list
By Christopher Elliott The New York Times
Wednesday, November 3, 2004
NEW YORK Having your name added to the Transportation Security
Administration's watch list, a register of airline passengers the U.S.
government wants to screen more rigorously, is easy.
Just ask Harold Smith, who works for a specialty surgical-equipment
distributor in Fort Worth, Texas. As he checked in for a flight to Austin
recently, an electronic kiosk rejected his seat assignment request and
referred him to the ticket counter.
An airline employee quietly told him he was "watch listed" and could board
only after law enforcement authorities were called. "I have no idea how my
name got on that list," said Smith, who describes himself as an
average-looking grandfather with a clean record. He was allowed to check in
after a brief wait.
Having your name taken off the security administration's watch list,
however, is not so easy. For three weeks, after being stopped every time he
tried to board a flight, Smith said he begged airline workers and
administration agents for help clearing his name. "The TSA agents I spoke
with didn't know what to do, and they couldn't tell me who the ranking
officer was," he said.
Finally, a sympathetic airline worker offered him a phone number for the
administration's ombudsman, its passenger advocate. The watch list is a
generic term for at least nine government databases estimated to include
more than 40,000 names, according to people familiar with the lists. The
names are divided into a no-fly list of a few thousand people suspected of
terrorist activity or believed to be a threat to national security and a
much larger list of "selectees" who are required to be questioned by the
security administration before boarding.
Despite its size, that second database remains something of a mystery.
According to people with access to it, air travelers can be put into it for
activities like paying for a ticket with cash, booking a seat at the last
minute, flying one way instead of round trip and even arriving at the
airport without luggage.
There is no way to find out if you are on the list until you check in for a
flight. Worse, there may be no way off. Passengers can fill out a disparity
claim with the ombudsman's office, which acts as an intermediary between
passengers like Smith and the security agency. "If it's determined that
you're not the individual that is wanted for further questioning, then the
airlines will receive notification informing them that the specific
individual is not to be detained," said a TSA spokeswoman, Lauren Stover.
But that does not mean they are off the watch list. The agency's Office of
Intelligence, which maintains the list, reports that in September, 680
people filed disparity claims indicating that their names had been mistaken
for individuals wanted by the government for questioning. Of those, the
government cleared 250 people by October.
All that apparently means, however, is that their identities had been
clarified to prevent "false positives" - the names are not necessarily
removed from the databases. In some cases, the agency does delete a
"selectee" from the list, but it will not say how long it takes or what the
criteria are.
Smith is still waiting to find out his exact status. More than a month after
he was tagged, the security administration sent him a Passenger Identity
Verification Form by e-mail, requesting copies of his driver's license
number and voter registration card or military discharge papers, as well as
his height, weight and eye color.
He filled out the form and returned it within a day, but has not heard from
the agency since. Then again, he is no longer being stopped at the airport
and says he expects to be notified soon that he has been cleared.
What if the government decides that a traveler has not been misidentified
and belongs on its watch list? According to the agency, there is no formal
appeals process. Travelers can either accept the decision or, as a last
resort, sue the government.
That is exactly what several travelers did in April, when they filed a
class-action challenge to the watch list with the assistance of the American
Civil Liberties Union.
Nov 3rd 2004, 5:22 am
#2
Guest
Posts: n/a
Re: Does a no-fly list exist in Europe or flights to Europe??
Our passports are machine-readable for a purpose. But the background
database(s) against which they are checked may be constructed, shall
we say, on a rather different basis. There may well be some sort of
list, but I suspect it's bit less catch-all in its sources.
PJW
On Wed, 03 Nov 2004 12:47:23 +0100, Earl Evleth <[email protected]>
wrote:
>"Does a "no-fly" list exist in Europe or flights to Europe??"
>My conclusion is that there is no list as such in
>Europe.
>Earl
database(s) against which they are checked may be constructed, shall
we say, on a rather different basis. There may well be some sort of
list, but I suspect it's bit less catch-all in its sources.
PJW
On Wed, 03 Nov 2004 12:47:23 +0100, Earl Evleth <[email protected]>
wrote:
>"Does a "no-fly" list exist in Europe or flights to Europe??"
>My conclusion is that there is no list as such in
>Europe.
>Earl
