Cruises to St. Petersburg
Aug 4th 2004, 12:01 am
#16
Guest
Posts: n/a
Re: Cruises to St. Petersburg
?ystein wrote:
>
> I don't know about that. When I see that in writing from the officials
> I belive it. What I do know is that everybody looking like a foreigner
> (and a group from a cruiseship definately do that) in St Petersburg
> and Moscow, is very likely to be stopped by the police for document
> checks.
Your assertion that foreigners are "likely to be stopped by the police
for document checks" does not square with our recent experience. There
simply was not a large enough police/military presence in any of our
eight stops within Russia fall into the "likely" category. Newsgroup
posts prior to our departure had sensitized me to the likelihood of
being stopped. Nevertheless, my husband and I were out and about in each
of the cities we visited without our passports. We chose to believe our
ship's personnel that our ship's boarding cards would serve as adequate
official documentation for everything other than exchanging dollars for
rubles. These two factors caused me to be attentive to the behavior of
anyone official, and we never saw a Russian official engaging anyone for
a document check.
> If you have experienced that you will understand what I mean
> when I say it sounds very strange that they will accept anything but
> a passport including a valid visa.
Well we haven't. Although our shoes and small day-pack tend to signal
our tourist status in every country we visit, I suspect people react to
a middle-aged couple differently (and here I'm making some assumptions)
than to a younger single male.
I know we heard gripes about the way some tourists had their passport
photos scrutinized when entering Russia. Having lost weight since my
passport was issued, the identifying photo has almost no resemblance to
my present appearance. When the female passport officer looked down at
the photograph and up at my face sharply, I realized what was going on.
I pantomimed a plump, round face, nodded "yes" vigorously, and smiled.
Suddenly, the dour passport officer was all smiles and vigorous head
nods, too. Or take our experience going through airport security in St.
Petersburg: My husband has a serious visual handicap and lacks depth
perception. If the security officer will guide him through the center of
the security arch, he'll be just fine. Left to his own devices, he will
likely brush against the arch and trigger a search. I've developed a
series of gestures that seem to be easily understood by airport security
types across the world -- except LAX!!! -- that they need to assist my
husband. The Russian personnel were as accommodating as possible; no
cold, rigid bureaucratic approach in our experience.
We'll just have to agree to disagree on several issues relating to
Russia including the likelihood of a security check and the fact that
the Hermitage is a "tourist trap."
Karen Selwyn
>
> I don't know about that. When I see that in writing from the officials
> I belive it. What I do know is that everybody looking like a foreigner
> (and a group from a cruiseship definately do that) in St Petersburg
> and Moscow, is very likely to be stopped by the police for document
> checks.
Your assertion that foreigners are "likely to be stopped by the police
for document checks" does not square with our recent experience. There
simply was not a large enough police/military presence in any of our
eight stops within Russia fall into the "likely" category. Newsgroup
posts prior to our departure had sensitized me to the likelihood of
being stopped. Nevertheless, my husband and I were out and about in each
of the cities we visited without our passports. We chose to believe our
ship's personnel that our ship's boarding cards would serve as adequate
official documentation for everything other than exchanging dollars for
rubles. These two factors caused me to be attentive to the behavior of
anyone official, and we never saw a Russian official engaging anyone for
a document check.
> If you have experienced that you will understand what I mean
> when I say it sounds very strange that they will accept anything but
> a passport including a valid visa.
Well we haven't. Although our shoes and small day-pack tend to signal
our tourist status in every country we visit, I suspect people react to
a middle-aged couple differently (and here I'm making some assumptions)
than to a younger single male.
I know we heard gripes about the way some tourists had their passport
photos scrutinized when entering Russia. Having lost weight since my
passport was issued, the identifying photo has almost no resemblance to
my present appearance. When the female passport officer looked down at
the photograph and up at my face sharply, I realized what was going on.
I pantomimed a plump, round face, nodded "yes" vigorously, and smiled.
Suddenly, the dour passport officer was all smiles and vigorous head
nods, too. Or take our experience going through airport security in St.
Petersburg: My husband has a serious visual handicap and lacks depth
perception. If the security officer will guide him through the center of
the security arch, he'll be just fine. Left to his own devices, he will
likely brush against the arch and trigger a search. I've developed a
series of gestures that seem to be easily understood by airport security
types across the world -- except LAX!!! -- that they need to assist my
husband. The Russian personnel were as accommodating as possible; no
cold, rigid bureaucratic approach in our experience.
We'll just have to agree to disagree on several issues relating to
Russia including the likelihood of a security check and the fact that
the Hermitage is a "tourist trap."
Karen Selwyn
Aug 4th 2004, 3:39 am
#17
Guest
Posts: n/a
Re: Cruises to St. Petersburg
[email protected] (?ystein) wrote in message news:<[email protected]. com>...
> Karen Selwyn <[email protected]> wrote in message news:<fKSPc.6781$Jo1.4495@lakeread01>...
> > ?ystein wrote:
> > >
> > > No, if I can guess from what country you are by your name, you have to
> > > have a visa to visit Russia.
> >
> > Do not use the information about land-based tour travel or independent
> > travel to answer visa questions about cruise ports of call in Russia.
> > The process is quite different. Cruise lines have made arrangements for
> > passengers taking ship-sponsored excursions in the city of St.
> > Petersburg to do so without the need for a tourist visa. Cruisers
> > wishing to tour independently or with St. Petersburg-based tour
> > companies must still obtain a visa. By offering their passengers the
> > "carrot" of visiting Russia without a visa, the cruise lines have
> > developed a strategy for maximizing their income for their excursions.
>
> I don't know about that. When I see that in writing from the officials
> I belive it. What I do know is that everybody looking like a foreigner
> (and a group from a cruiseship definately do that) in St Petersburg
> and Moscow, is very likely to be stopped by the police for document
> checks. If you have experienced that you will understand what I mean
> when I say it sounds very strange that they will accept anything but
> a passport including a valid visa.
What would be strange with them accepting a single document for the
group, carried by the tour guide, in lieu of individual visas for each
individual in the group? Not that I know if that's how it works, but I
don't see what would be strange about it.
Bjorn
> Karen Selwyn <[email protected]> wrote in message news:<fKSPc.6781$Jo1.4495@lakeread01>...
> > ?ystein wrote:
> > >
> > > No, if I can guess from what country you are by your name, you have to
> > > have a visa to visit Russia.
> >
> > Do not use the information about land-based tour travel or independent
> > travel to answer visa questions about cruise ports of call in Russia.
> > The process is quite different. Cruise lines have made arrangements for
> > passengers taking ship-sponsored excursions in the city of St.
> > Petersburg to do so without the need for a tourist visa. Cruisers
> > wishing to tour independently or with St. Petersburg-based tour
> > companies must still obtain a visa. By offering their passengers the
> > "carrot" of visiting Russia without a visa, the cruise lines have
> > developed a strategy for maximizing their income for their excursions.
>
> I don't know about that. When I see that in writing from the officials
> I belive it. What I do know is that everybody looking like a foreigner
> (and a group from a cruiseship definately do that) in St Petersburg
> and Moscow, is very likely to be stopped by the police for document
> checks. If you have experienced that you will understand what I mean
> when I say it sounds very strange that they will accept anything but
> a passport including a valid visa.
What would be strange with them accepting a single document for the
group, carried by the tour guide, in lieu of individual visas for each
individual in the group? Not that I know if that's how it works, but I
don't see what would be strange about it.
Bjorn
Aug 4th 2004, 9:08 am
#18
Guest
Posts: n/a
Re: Cruises to St. Petersburg
Karen Selwyn <[email protected]> wrote in message news:<yb4Qc.10231$Jo1.7102@lakeread01>...
> ?ystein wrote:
> >
> > I don't know about that. When I see that in writing from the officials
> > I belive it. What I do know is that everybody looking like a foreigner
> > (and a group from a cruiseship definately do that) in St Petersburg
> > and Moscow, is very likely to be stopped by the police for document
> > checks.
>
> Your assertion that foreigners are "likely to be stopped by the police
> for document checks" does not square with our recent experience.
Not with mine either. I've been to Russia over a dozen times,
sometimes spending up to a month at the time, so that the total time
spent in the country must be well over 6 months. And I've never been
stopped by a police on the street even once.
> There
> simply was not a large enough police/military presence in any of our
> eight stops within Russia fall into the "likely" category.
That's my impression too. And the police I do see always seem busy
with more important things, like kicking out drunkards from the public
buildings, while showing no interest at all in anyone who looks like a
well-behaved and productive citizen.
> Newsgroup
> posts prior to our departure had sensitized me to the likelihood of
> being stopped. Nevertheless, my husband and I were out and about in each
> of the cities we visited without our passports. We chose to believe our
> ship's personnel that our ship's boarding cards would serve as adequate
> official documentation for everything other than exchanging dollars for
> rubles. These two factors caused me to be attentive to the behavior of
> anyone official, and we never saw a Russian official engaging anyone for
> a document check.
>
> > If you have experienced that you will understand what I mean
> > when I say it sounds very strange that they will accept anything but
> > a passport including a valid visa.
>
> Well we haven't. Although our shoes and small day-pack tend to signal
> our tourist status in every country we visit, I suspect people react to
> a middle-aged couple differently (and here I'm making some assumptions)
> than to a younger single male.
>
> I know we heard gripes about the way some tourists had their passport
> photos scrutinized when entering Russia. Having lost weight since my
> passport was issued, the identifying photo has almost no resemblance to
> my present appearance. When the female passport officer looked down at
> the photograph and up at my face sharply, I realized what was going on.
> I pantomimed a plump, round face, nodded "yes" vigorously, and smiled.
> Suddenly, the dour passport officer was all smiles and vigorous head
> nods, too. Or take our experience going through airport security in St.
> Petersburg: My husband has a serious visual handicap and lacks depth
> perception. If the security officer will guide him through the center of
> the security arch, he'll be just fine. Left to his own devices, he will
> likely brush against the arch and trigger a search. I've developed a
> series of gestures that seem to be easily understood by airport security
> types across the world -- except LAX!!! -- that they need to assist my
> husband. The Russian personnel were as accommodating as possible; no
> cold, rigid bureaucratic approach in our experience.
>
> We'll just have to agree to disagree on several issues relating to
> Russia including the likelihood of a security check and the fact that
> the Hermitage is a "tourist trap."
Yes, few sights on this planet are further from being tourist traps.
Bjorn
> ?ystein wrote:
> >
> > I don't know about that. When I see that in writing from the officials
> > I belive it. What I do know is that everybody looking like a foreigner
> > (and a group from a cruiseship definately do that) in St Petersburg
> > and Moscow, is very likely to be stopped by the police for document
> > checks.
>
> Your assertion that foreigners are "likely to be stopped by the police
> for document checks" does not square with our recent experience.
Not with mine either. I've been to Russia over a dozen times,
sometimes spending up to a month at the time, so that the total time
spent in the country must be well over 6 months. And I've never been
stopped by a police on the street even once.
> There
> simply was not a large enough police/military presence in any of our
> eight stops within Russia fall into the "likely" category.
That's my impression too. And the police I do see always seem busy
with more important things, like kicking out drunkards from the public
buildings, while showing no interest at all in anyone who looks like a
well-behaved and productive citizen.
> Newsgroup
> posts prior to our departure had sensitized me to the likelihood of
> being stopped. Nevertheless, my husband and I were out and about in each
> of the cities we visited without our passports. We chose to believe our
> ship's personnel that our ship's boarding cards would serve as adequate
> official documentation for everything other than exchanging dollars for
> rubles. These two factors caused me to be attentive to the behavior of
> anyone official, and we never saw a Russian official engaging anyone for
> a document check.
>
> > If you have experienced that you will understand what I mean
> > when I say it sounds very strange that they will accept anything but
> > a passport including a valid visa.
>
> Well we haven't. Although our shoes and small day-pack tend to signal
> our tourist status in every country we visit, I suspect people react to
> a middle-aged couple differently (and here I'm making some assumptions)
> than to a younger single male.
>
> I know we heard gripes about the way some tourists had their passport
> photos scrutinized when entering Russia. Having lost weight since my
> passport was issued, the identifying photo has almost no resemblance to
> my present appearance. When the female passport officer looked down at
> the photograph and up at my face sharply, I realized what was going on.
> I pantomimed a plump, round face, nodded "yes" vigorously, and smiled.
> Suddenly, the dour passport officer was all smiles and vigorous head
> nods, too. Or take our experience going through airport security in St.
> Petersburg: My husband has a serious visual handicap and lacks depth
> perception. If the security officer will guide him through the center of
> the security arch, he'll be just fine. Left to his own devices, he will
> likely brush against the arch and trigger a search. I've developed a
> series of gestures that seem to be easily understood by airport security
> types across the world -- except LAX!!! -- that they need to assist my
> husband. The Russian personnel were as accommodating as possible; no
> cold, rigid bureaucratic approach in our experience.
>
> We'll just have to agree to disagree on several issues relating to
> Russia including the likelihood of a security check and the fact that
> the Hermitage is a "tourist trap."
Yes, few sights on this planet are further from being tourist traps.
Bjorn
Aug 4th 2004, 2:46 pm
#19
Guest
Posts: n/a
Re: Cruises to St. Petersburg
Laura F Spira wrote:
>
> a visa was needed but the tour organisers would arrange it. I have no
doubt that the premium paid for the service
> is significant but I don't know how much cheaper it is to arrange your
> own visa, or how easy this is.
We paid $100 for a single-entry visa per person.
Living near Washington, DC, we handle all our own visa applications. I
have to say that dealing with the Russian consulate in DC was a
capricious experience. As it turned out, we had no problem getting our
visa the first time we applied. Others weren't so lucky. Someone ahead
of us in line had his application rejected because his hotel invitation
was a tear-off form at the bottom of his hotel confirmation. The Russian
bureaucrat rejected this saying the invitation wasn't on a full-sized
letter head. (That gentleman had flown down from Boston for the day. He
ended up hiring a visa-processing service.) Another person in line had
her application accepted only after she re-copied her form. She had
printed the application from the embassy web site; however, the
consulate rejected their own web form and made the traveler copy
everything onto the printed form they handed her in real time. Someone
else had his/her application rejected because it was dirty. And so on...
If I lived anywhere else besides a city with a consulate, I would
definitely use a visa service when applying for a Russian visa.
Karen Selwyn
>
> a visa was needed but the tour organisers would arrange it. I have no
doubt that the premium paid for the service
> is significant but I don't know how much cheaper it is to arrange your
> own visa, or how easy this is.
We paid $100 for a single-entry visa per person.
Living near Washington, DC, we handle all our own visa applications. I
have to say that dealing with the Russian consulate in DC was a
capricious experience. As it turned out, we had no problem getting our
visa the first time we applied. Others weren't so lucky. Someone ahead
of us in line had his application rejected because his hotel invitation
was a tear-off form at the bottom of his hotel confirmation. The Russian
bureaucrat rejected this saying the invitation wasn't on a full-sized
letter head. (That gentleman had flown down from Boston for the day. He
ended up hiring a visa-processing service.) Another person in line had
her application accepted only after she re-copied her form. She had
printed the application from the embassy web site; however, the
consulate rejected their own web form and made the traveler copy
everything onto the printed form they handed her in real time. Someone
else had his/her application rejected because it was dirty. And so on...
If I lived anywhere else besides a city with a consulate, I would
definitely use a visa service when applying for a Russian visa.
Karen Selwyn
Aug 4th 2004, 7:09 pm
#20
Guest
Posts: n/a
Re: Cruises to St. Petersburg
[email protected] (Bjorn Olsson) wrote in message news:<[email protected]. com>...
> [email protected] (?ystein) wrote in message news:<[email protected]. com>...
> > Karen Selwyn <[email protected]> wrote in message news:<fKSPc.6781$Jo1.4495@lakeread01>...
> > > ?ystein wrote:
> > > >
> > > > No, if I can guess from what country you are by your name, you have to
> > > > have a visa to visit Russia.
> > >
> > > Do not use the information about land-based tour travel or independent
> > > travel to answer visa questions about cruise ports of call in Russia.
> > > The process is quite different. Cruise lines have made arrangements for
> > > passengers taking ship-sponsored excursions in the city of St.
> > > Petersburg to do so without the need for a tourist visa. Cruisers
> > > wishing to tour independently or with St. Petersburg-based tour
> > > companies must still obtain a visa. By offering their passengers the
> > > "carrot" of visiting Russia without a visa, the cruise lines have
> > > developed a strategy for maximizing their income for their excursions.
> >
> > I don't know about that. When I see that in writing from the officials
> > I belive it. What I do know is that everybody looking like a foreigner
> > (and a group from a cruiseship definately do that) in St Petersburg
> > and Moscow, is very likely to be stopped by the police for document
> > checks. If you have experienced that you will understand what I mean
> > when I say it sounds very strange that they will accept anything but
> > a passport including a valid visa.
>
> What would be strange with them accepting a single document for the
> group, carried by the tour guide, in lieu of individual visas for each
> individual in the group? Not that I know if that's how it works, but I
> don't see what would be strange about it.
Since you have never experienced it, I am glad you ask. Copys of
passport, visa and immigationcard is good enough as long as the copy
of the immigrationcard shows that it is registered. If you can not
prove that it is registered after the first three days (that is the
timelimit), you will be treated more or less like if you are catched
without passport or visa. If you show a copy instead of your passport
you need an identification on the side. It is a good idea to show a
copy instead of the original, because from time to time the police
steals papers/money from tourists (read: not often, but it happens).
Jan
> [email protected] (?ystein) wrote in message news:<[email protected]. com>...
> > Karen Selwyn <[email protected]> wrote in message news:<fKSPc.6781$Jo1.4495@lakeread01>...
> > > ?ystein wrote:
> > > >
> > > > No, if I can guess from what country you are by your name, you have to
> > > > have a visa to visit Russia.
> > >
> > > Do not use the information about land-based tour travel or independent
> > > travel to answer visa questions about cruise ports of call in Russia.
> > > The process is quite different. Cruise lines have made arrangements for
> > > passengers taking ship-sponsored excursions in the city of St.
> > > Petersburg to do so without the need for a tourist visa. Cruisers
> > > wishing to tour independently or with St. Petersburg-based tour
> > > companies must still obtain a visa. By offering their passengers the
> > > "carrot" of visiting Russia without a visa, the cruise lines have
> > > developed a strategy for maximizing their income for their excursions.
> >
> > I don't know about that. When I see that in writing from the officials
> > I belive it. What I do know is that everybody looking like a foreigner
> > (and a group from a cruiseship definately do that) in St Petersburg
> > and Moscow, is very likely to be stopped by the police for document
> > checks. If you have experienced that you will understand what I mean
> > when I say it sounds very strange that they will accept anything but
> > a passport including a valid visa.
>
> What would be strange with them accepting a single document for the
> group, carried by the tour guide, in lieu of individual visas for each
> individual in the group? Not that I know if that's how it works, but I
> don't see what would be strange about it.
Since you have never experienced it, I am glad you ask. Copys of
passport, visa and immigationcard is good enough as long as the copy
of the immigrationcard shows that it is registered. If you can not
prove that it is registered after the first three days (that is the
timelimit), you will be treated more or less like if you are catched
without passport or visa. If you show a copy instead of your passport
you need an identification on the side. It is a good idea to show a
copy instead of the original, because from time to time the police
steals papers/money from tourists (read: not often, but it happens).
Jan
Aug 4th 2004, 7:35 pm
#21
Guest
Posts: n/a
Re: Cruises to St. Petersburg
Karen Selwyn <[email protected]> wrote in message news:<yb4Qc.10231$Jo1.7102@lakeread01>...
> ?ystein wrote:
> We chose to believe our
> ship's personnel that our ship's boarding cards would serve as adequate
> official documentation for everything other than exchanging dollars for
> rubles. These two factors caused me to be attentive to the behavior of
> anyone official, and we never saw a Russian official engaging anyone for
> a document check.
That could be true, and as written, when I see that in a updated
official guidline I believe you. It might be true. What is not true,
is that a passport is needed to change money. The rules is changed.
Some banks asks for a passport anyway. This visualizes three important
points. 1) The rules changes often. 2) People with a profession
related to the rules often don't know the updated rules (if you have
asked customs officials about the detailed regulation a couple of
timem you know what I mean). 3) It is important not to have to depend
upon that everybody knows the updated rules. I will give you an
adivice for free. Bring a creditcard. It is always better than
changing cash or travel cheques.
> > If you have experienced that you will understand what I mean
> > when I say it sounds very strange that they will accept anything but
> > a passport including a valid visa.
>
> Well we haven't. Although our shoes and small day-pack tend to signal
> our tourist status in every country we visit, I suspect people react to
> a middle-aged couple differently (and here I'm making some assumptions)
> than to a younger single male.
You take wrong assumptions. The likelyhood of beeing stopped is
related with if they notice you as a foregner and the likelihood of
being stopped and herassed is related to if they notice you as a
(rich) foreigner that they will succeed to cheat for money.
When it comes to don't be noticed by them it is a good idea not to
look diretly at policemen, not to stop in front of them, not advertise
that you are a foreigner by speaking a foreign language, obviously not
now where you are going or have a travel guide or a map in your hands
right in front of them (if you do carry one put them inside a Russian
paper
. At the entrance of metro and trainstations are one of the
most obvious place to meet policemen that are very bored and eager to
control your papers. Outside Moscow and St Petersburg it is much less
likely with theese kinds of experiences.
> I know we heard gripes about the way some tourists had their passport
> photos scrutinized when entering Russia. Having lost weight since my
> passport was issued, the identifying photo has almost no resemblance to
> my present appearance. When the female passport officer looked down at
> the photograph and up at my face sharply, I realized what was going on.
> I pantomimed a plump, round face, nodded "yes" vigorously, and smiled.
> Suddenly, the dour passport officer was all smiles and vigorous head
> nods, too.
You are right, but this is not the issue I am talking about.
> We'll just have to agree to disagree on several issues relating to
> Russia including the likelihood of a security check and the fact that
> the Hermitage is a "tourist trap."
Not really. You do the mistake of assuming something you haven't
experienced yourself as non-existant. Would you keep all your moneys
and valuables in your purse too instead of on different places on your
body just because you have not been robbed jet?
It is hardly possible to disagree with that the Ermitage is a
toursit-trap in the sense that toursits pay 10 times more than
everybody else, the place is filled with foreign toursit all the time,
there are freelance guides standing by the entrance to guide in
English for a pretty solid sallary etc. etc. That isn't of course not
necesarily all bad though.
Jan
> ?ystein wrote:
> We chose to believe our
> ship's personnel that our ship's boarding cards would serve as adequate
> official documentation for everything other than exchanging dollars for
> rubles. These two factors caused me to be attentive to the behavior of
> anyone official, and we never saw a Russian official engaging anyone for
> a document check.
That could be true, and as written, when I see that in a updated
official guidline I believe you. It might be true. What is not true,
is that a passport is needed to change money. The rules is changed.
Some banks asks for a passport anyway. This visualizes three important
points. 1) The rules changes often. 2) People with a profession
related to the rules often don't know the updated rules (if you have
asked customs officials about the detailed regulation a couple of
timem you know what I mean). 3) It is important not to have to depend
upon that everybody knows the updated rules. I will give you an
adivice for free. Bring a creditcard. It is always better than
changing cash or travel cheques.
> > If you have experienced that you will understand what I mean
> > when I say it sounds very strange that they will accept anything but
> > a passport including a valid visa.
>
> Well we haven't. Although our shoes and small day-pack tend to signal
> our tourist status in every country we visit, I suspect people react to
> a middle-aged couple differently (and here I'm making some assumptions)
> than to a younger single male.
You take wrong assumptions. The likelyhood of beeing stopped is
related with if they notice you as a foregner and the likelihood of
being stopped and herassed is related to if they notice you as a
(rich) foreigner that they will succeed to cheat for money.
When it comes to don't be noticed by them it is a good idea not to
look diretly at policemen, not to stop in front of them, not advertise
that you are a foreigner by speaking a foreign language, obviously not
now where you are going or have a travel guide or a map in your hands
right in front of them (if you do carry one put them inside a Russian
paper
. At the entrance of metro and trainstations are one of themost obvious place to meet policemen that are very bored and eager to
control your papers. Outside Moscow and St Petersburg it is much less
likely with theese kinds of experiences.
> I know we heard gripes about the way some tourists had their passport
> photos scrutinized when entering Russia. Having lost weight since my
> passport was issued, the identifying photo has almost no resemblance to
> my present appearance. When the female passport officer looked down at
> the photograph and up at my face sharply, I realized what was going on.
> I pantomimed a plump, round face, nodded "yes" vigorously, and smiled.
> Suddenly, the dour passport officer was all smiles and vigorous head
> nods, too.
You are right, but this is not the issue I am talking about.
> We'll just have to agree to disagree on several issues relating to
> Russia including the likelihood of a security check and the fact that
> the Hermitage is a "tourist trap."
Not really. You do the mistake of assuming something you haven't
experienced yourself as non-existant. Would you keep all your moneys
and valuables in your purse too instead of on different places on your
body just because you have not been robbed jet?
It is hardly possible to disagree with that the Ermitage is a
toursit-trap in the sense that toursits pay 10 times more than
everybody else, the place is filled with foreign toursit all the time,
there are freelance guides standing by the entrance to guide in
English for a pretty solid sallary etc. etc. That isn't of course not
necesarily all bad though.
Jan
Aug 4th 2004, 10:45 pm
#22
Guest
Posts: n/a
Re: Cruises to St. Petersburg
?ystein wrote:
>
> I will give you an advice for free. Bring a creditcard. It is always
> better than changing cash or travel cheques.
At last, we're in agreement in something! With the exception of some
minimal cash in both US and the appropriate foreign currency, we charge
everything or withdraw money only as needed. When I see tourists having
a hard time getting travelers' checks cashed, I often wonder if they get
the message and cease using them on subsequent trips.
> You take wrong assumptions. The likelyhood of beeing stopped is
> related with if they notice you as a foregner and the likelihood of
> being stopped and herassed is related to if they notice you as a
> (rich) foreigner that they will succeed to cheat for money.
As I said, we'll agree to disagree. The situation you depict does not
match my reality. According to your list of don'ts my husband and I
should have been consistently harrassed by police. Nothing of the sort
happened. Incidentally, we -- along with the majority of the people in
our group -- did ride the metro in both Moscow and St. Petersburg, the
two places where tourists were most vulnerable to being stopped
according to your dire warnings. As I've already written, two separate
couples encountered pick-pockets, but no one was stopped by police.
> It is hardly possible to disagree with that the Ermitage is a
> toursit-trap in the sense that toursits pay 10 times more than
> everybody else,
So what? I have no problem conceptually with there being a price
difference between admission for Russian citizens and foreigners. The
collection in the Hermitage is most emphatically worth the price of
admission.
> the place is filled with foreign toursit all the time,
So what? I have no problem being in the same place as fellow-tourists.
There really is a reason destinations become tourist attractions; those
places are places worth visiting.
> there are freelance guides standing by the entrance to guide in
> English for a pretty solid sallary etc. etc.
I'm not sure of the point you're making here, but you needn't explain on
my account. As I've said, we'll agree to disagree.
Karen Selwyn
>
> I will give you an advice for free. Bring a creditcard. It is always
> better than changing cash or travel cheques.
At last, we're in agreement in something! With the exception of some
minimal cash in both US and the appropriate foreign currency, we charge
everything or withdraw money only as needed. When I see tourists having
a hard time getting travelers' checks cashed, I often wonder if they get
the message and cease using them on subsequent trips.
> You take wrong assumptions. The likelyhood of beeing stopped is
> related with if they notice you as a foregner and the likelihood of
> being stopped and herassed is related to if they notice you as a
> (rich) foreigner that they will succeed to cheat for money.
As I said, we'll agree to disagree. The situation you depict does not
match my reality. According to your list of don'ts my husband and I
should have been consistently harrassed by police. Nothing of the sort
happened. Incidentally, we -- along with the majority of the people in
our group -- did ride the metro in both Moscow and St. Petersburg, the
two places where tourists were most vulnerable to being stopped
according to your dire warnings. As I've already written, two separate
couples encountered pick-pockets, but no one was stopped by police.
> It is hardly possible to disagree with that the Ermitage is a
> toursit-trap in the sense that toursits pay 10 times more than
> everybody else,
So what? I have no problem conceptually with there being a price
difference between admission for Russian citizens and foreigners. The
collection in the Hermitage is most emphatically worth the price of
admission.
> the place is filled with foreign toursit all the time,
So what? I have no problem being in the same place as fellow-tourists.
There really is a reason destinations become tourist attractions; those
places are places worth visiting.
> there are freelance guides standing by the entrance to guide in
> English for a pretty solid sallary etc. etc.
I'm not sure of the point you're making here, but you needn't explain on
my account. As I've said, we'll agree to disagree.
Karen Selwyn
Aug 5th 2004, 9:20 am
#23
Guest
Posts: n/a
Re: Cruises to St. Petersburg
Karen Selwyn <[email protected]> wrote in message news:<OaoQc.16037$Jo1.3418@lakeread01>...
> > You take wrong assumptions. The likelyhood of beeing stopped is
> > related with if they notice you as a foregner and the likelihood of
> > being stopped and herassed is related to if they notice you as a
> > (rich) foreigner that they will succeed to cheat for money.
>
> As I said, we'll agree to disagree. The situation you depict does not
> match my reality. According to your list of don'ts my husband and I
> should have been consistently harrassed by police. Nothing of the sort
> happened. Incidentally, we -- along with the majority of the people in
> our group -- did ride the metro in both Moscow and St. Petersburg, the
> two places where tourists were most vulnerable to being stopped
> according to your dire warnings. As I've already written, two separate
> couples encountered pick-pockets, but no one was stopped by police.
There is no such thing as you and my reality in this respect. Either
reality is to a smaller or larger extent the way I describe or it is
not.
I did not suggest that it is any problem ON the metro. What I suggest
is that it is often policepetrols situated at the entrances of the
metrostations, they even have offices marked "militsia" on many
metrostations. If you stop and not now where you are going, speak in a
foreign language, look directly at them, or otherways advertise for
their attention, you behave in one o the ways that increase the
probability of being stopped. You should avoid being stopped by them
because best case scenario is wasting time on showing a humourless
policeman that your papers are ok, while if you are VERY unlucky worst
case scenario is that you could get into trouble (read: behave in a
way that make you feel very unconfortable, they can steal your papers
or money, or make up something imaginary wrong with your papers that
you have to pay them for in order for them to let you go - exsamples
listed in order of probability and the probelm is reducing over time).
You can belive what you want, this problem is documentet by hundred of
tourist and tourist industry sources. One of the easies written
sources if you don't have personal experinece, is to consult the
latest edition of Lonely Planet.
Jesus, your logic is like if I shold say that "in my reality" there
are no pick pocketers in Rome, just because I have never been robbed.
Be careful and you will probably be all right, it is not like such
incidens happends all the time.
> > It is hardly possible to disagree with that the Ermitage is a
> > toursit-trap in the sense that toursits pay 10 times more than
> > everybody else,
>
> So what? I have no problem conceptually with there being a price
> difference between admission for Russian citizens and foreigners. The
> collection in the Hermitage is most emphatically worth the price of
> admission.
I go there too and there is no so what. My initial question was that I
know St petersburg fairy well and could give some suggestinons
accoring to interests, if you wanted to see something of interest
outside the most trafficed tourist route.
Jan
> > You take wrong assumptions. The likelyhood of beeing stopped is
> > related with if they notice you as a foregner and the likelihood of
> > being stopped and herassed is related to if they notice you as a
> > (rich) foreigner that they will succeed to cheat for money.
>
> As I said, we'll agree to disagree. The situation you depict does not
> match my reality. According to your list of don'ts my husband and I
> should have been consistently harrassed by police. Nothing of the sort
> happened. Incidentally, we -- along with the majority of the people in
> our group -- did ride the metro in both Moscow and St. Petersburg, the
> two places where tourists were most vulnerable to being stopped
> according to your dire warnings. As I've already written, two separate
> couples encountered pick-pockets, but no one was stopped by police.
There is no such thing as you and my reality in this respect. Either
reality is to a smaller or larger extent the way I describe or it is
not.
I did not suggest that it is any problem ON the metro. What I suggest
is that it is often policepetrols situated at the entrances of the
metrostations, they even have offices marked "militsia" on many
metrostations. If you stop and not now where you are going, speak in a
foreign language, look directly at them, or otherways advertise for
their attention, you behave in one o the ways that increase the
probability of being stopped. You should avoid being stopped by them
because best case scenario is wasting time on showing a humourless
policeman that your papers are ok, while if you are VERY unlucky worst
case scenario is that you could get into trouble (read: behave in a
way that make you feel very unconfortable, they can steal your papers
or money, or make up something imaginary wrong with your papers that
you have to pay them for in order for them to let you go - exsamples
listed in order of probability and the probelm is reducing over time).
You can belive what you want, this problem is documentet by hundred of
tourist and tourist industry sources. One of the easies written
sources if you don't have personal experinece, is to consult the
latest edition of Lonely Planet.
Jesus, your logic is like if I shold say that "in my reality" there
are no pick pocketers in Rome, just because I have never been robbed.
Be careful and you will probably be all right, it is not like such
incidens happends all the time.
> > It is hardly possible to disagree with that the Ermitage is a
> > toursit-trap in the sense that toursits pay 10 times more than
> > everybody else,
>
> So what? I have no problem conceptually with there being a price
> difference between admission for Russian citizens and foreigners. The
> collection in the Hermitage is most emphatically worth the price of
> admission.
I go there too and there is no so what. My initial question was that I
know St petersburg fairy well and could give some suggestinons
accoring to interests, if you wanted to see something of interest
outside the most trafficed tourist route.
Jan
Aug 5th 2004, 10:16 am
#24
Guest
Posts: n/a
Re: Cruises to St. Petersburg
?ystein wrote:
> There is no such thing as you and my reality in this respect.
You are absolutely convinced that there is a high likelihood that
foreigners will attract the attention of the police. Presumably based on
your experience, that is your reality. Based on my experience, I am
equally convinced that is not the case.
> I did not suggest that it is any problem ON the metro.
Yes, I did say that many people in our group -- obvious tourists --
well-dressed, affluent tourists to boot -- rode the metro without
document checks by the police. However, I didn't think I needed to point
out that in order to ride the metro, one must enter the metro, the place
about which you broadcast your dire warnings. Apparently, I needed to
spell things out for you to understand my point.
> You can belive what you want, this problem is documentet by hundred of
> tourist and tourist industry sources. One of the easies written
> sources if you don't have personal experinece, is to consult the
> latest edition of Lonely Planet.
It wouldn't be the first time LONELY PLANET had incorrect or outdated
information. Urban legends exist on any number of topics.
> Jesus, your logic is like if I shold say that "in my reality" there
> are no pick pocketers in Rome, just because I have never been robbed.
> Be careful and you will probably be all right, it is not like such
> incidens happends all the time.
The example you cite about pickpockets is not germane. I know
pickpockets exist even though I have never been a victim; I have both
fended off a pickpocket attempt, observed pickpockets waiting for their
next target, and commiserated with victims of pickpocketing.
We traveled extensively on the metro and there were no police stationed
at the entrance to any of the metro stations we entered. Furthermore,
there was little police presence on the streets. If the police don't
exist, there is little likelihood of document checks.
> I go there too and there is no so what. My initial question was that I
> know St petersburg fairy well and could give some suggestinons
> accoring to interests, if you wanted to see something of interest
> outside the most trafficed tourist route.
Actually, that's not what you wrote. Your post was a put-down of someone
who wanted to visit the Hermitage and see a ballet performance. Had you
simply made a helpful offer, I wouldn't have taken issue with your
remarks. Here's what you wrote: (If you have any doubt about the
accuracy of my quote, feel free to look your words up on Google.)
"You have only suggeeted real tourist traps among the things you want
to see though. Is that because you prefer only to see the tourist
traps or because you don't know any other places that you could find
interesting?"
My goal in posting was to offer a different point of view about the
dire warnings you have posted about travel in Russia. Clearly, I won't
convince you; I will leave it to other readers to draw their own
conclusions based on the contents of our thread. I won't answer beyond
this reply.
Karen Selwyn
> There is no such thing as you and my reality in this respect.
You are absolutely convinced that there is a high likelihood that
foreigners will attract the attention of the police. Presumably based on
your experience, that is your reality. Based on my experience, I am
equally convinced that is not the case.
> I did not suggest that it is any problem ON the metro.
Yes, I did say that many people in our group -- obvious tourists --
well-dressed, affluent tourists to boot -- rode the metro without
document checks by the police. However, I didn't think I needed to point
out that in order to ride the metro, one must enter the metro, the place
about which you broadcast your dire warnings. Apparently, I needed to
spell things out for you to understand my point.
> You can belive what you want, this problem is documentet by hundred of
> tourist and tourist industry sources. One of the easies written
> sources if you don't have personal experinece, is to consult the
> latest edition of Lonely Planet.
It wouldn't be the first time LONELY PLANET had incorrect or outdated
information. Urban legends exist on any number of topics.
> Jesus, your logic is like if I shold say that "in my reality" there
> are no pick pocketers in Rome, just because I have never been robbed.
> Be careful and you will probably be all right, it is not like such
> incidens happends all the time.
The example you cite about pickpockets is not germane. I know
pickpockets exist even though I have never been a victim; I have both
fended off a pickpocket attempt, observed pickpockets waiting for their
next target, and commiserated with victims of pickpocketing.
We traveled extensively on the metro and there were no police stationed
at the entrance to any of the metro stations we entered. Furthermore,
there was little police presence on the streets. If the police don't
exist, there is little likelihood of document checks.
> I go there too and there is no so what. My initial question was that I
> know St petersburg fairy well and could give some suggestinons
> accoring to interests, if you wanted to see something of interest
> outside the most trafficed tourist route.
Actually, that's not what you wrote. Your post was a put-down of someone
who wanted to visit the Hermitage and see a ballet performance. Had you
simply made a helpful offer, I wouldn't have taken issue with your
remarks. Here's what you wrote: (If you have any doubt about the
accuracy of my quote, feel free to look your words up on Google.)
"You have only suggeeted real tourist traps among the things you want
to see though. Is that because you prefer only to see the tourist
traps or because you don't know any other places that you could find
interesting?"
My goal in posting was to offer a different point of view about the
dire warnings you have posted about travel in Russia. Clearly, I won't
convince you; I will leave it to other readers to draw their own
conclusions based on the contents of our thread. I won't answer beyond
this reply.
Karen Selwyn
Aug 5th 2004, 7:43 pm
#25
Guest
Posts: n/a
Re: Cruises to St. Petersburg
Karen Selwyn <[email protected]> wrote in message news:<wiyQc.19368$Jo1.18842@lakeread01>...
> ?ystein wrote:
> >
> > There is no such thing as you and my reality in this respect.
>
> You are absolutely convinced that there is a high likelihood that
> foreigners will attract the attention of the police. Presumably based on
> your experience, that is your reality. Based on my experience, I am
> equally convinced that is not the case.
No high likelyhood. My 2 lasts visits, this year and last year, I have
been stopped both times at a train- og metrostation on the basis of
stopping at the entrance or outside the entrance looking like I don't
know where I was looking and therefore looked at a metromap. I can
understand that this is to advertise I am a tourist. Therefore I try
to make sure I don't do this again, to avoid this kind of attention.
There are not offices for the police marked "militsia" on the central
metrostops with the pupose of checking foreigners papers of course. I
assume the reason why they is there is to prevent pick pocketing and
the like.
The incidents took place in St Petersburg and Moscow I have never been
stopped anywhere else in the other 4 Eurorussian towns I have visited.
Several Russians working in the tourist business, confirms that this
incidents almost exclusively takes place in Moscow and St Petersburg
after their knowledge.
> > You can belive what you want, this problem is documentet by hundred of
> > tourist and tourist industry sources. One of the easies written
> > sources if you don't have personal experinece, is to consult the
> > latest edition of Lonely Planet.
>
> It wouldn't be the first time LONELY PLANET had incorrect or outdated
> information. Urban legends exist on any number of topics.
This is of course not the only source. It is still normal practice
among language schools and other institutions that organize tourist
trips to spesificly warn their guests about such police incidents, to
insist on keeping the original papers of their guest in the safe and
to instruct their guests to call them immidiately, if they get stopped
by the police. This is the case for this summer and last easter.
That mentioned, I think it is true that the situation over time is
improving in this respect. It is also true that it happends seldom. My
last and only creepy ecperience of this sort that is relatively new of
date was last easter in St Petersburg, late at night in the Nevsky
Prospekt area. First the petrol come up to me at the entrance at a bar
to see my papers, that I showed them. The owner of the place explained
to them in Russian though that I was a guest there and he run the
place so they were pretty polite. When I was leaving though the same
petrol stopped me again and behaved very rude and thretening accused
me for carrying drug and made me open all my pockets. I was leaving a
restaurant/bar and not a raveclub and of course I had nothing but a
citymap and chewing gum on me. The two metro-/trainstaion incidens
were just succers for stamps.
> > Jesus, your logic is like if I shold say that "in my reality" there
> > are no pick pocketers in Rome, just because I have never been robbed.
> > Be careful and you will probably be all right, it is not like such
> > incidens happends all the time.
>
> The example you cite about pickpockets is not germane. I know
> pickpockets exist even though I have never been a victim; I have both
> fended off a pickpocket attempt, observed pickpockets waiting for their
> next target, and commiserated with victims of pickpocketing.
You are communicating with one of many victims of such herrasment just
now. I also refere to exsamles of how Russian travel organizers warn
their guests this year. That said there is no doubt that the situation
isn't that bad as one can hear from the urban myths as you call it.
Try to drive a foreign car throuh Bellarus and I expect one to
experience what real trouble is.
> > I go there too and there is no so what. My initial question was that I
> > know St petersburg fairy well and could give some suggestinons
> > accoring to interests, if you wanted to see something of interest
> > outside the most trafficed tourist route.
>
> Actually, that's not what you wrote. Your post was a put-down of someone
> who wanted to visit the Hermitage and see a ballet performance. Had you
> simply made a helpful offer, I wouldn't have taken issue with your
> remarks. Here's what you wrote: (If you have any doubt about the
> accuracy of my quote, feel free to look your words up on Google.)
>
> "You have only suggeeted real tourist traps among the things you want
> to see though. Is that because you prefer only to see the tourist
> traps or because you don't know any other places that you could find
> interesting?"
I agree with you on that the formulation was bad. I should have used
"stops on the main tourist route" instead of "tourist trap". Those who
feel I am not to crazy about standing in line toursim are absolutely
right.
> My goal in posting was to offer a different point of view about the
> dire warnings you have posted about travel in Russia. Clearly, I won't
> convince you; I will leave it to other readers to draw their own
> conclusions based on the contents of our thread. I won't answer beyond
> this reply.
I don't have any intention to make an impression that this is a big
problem. One should not go though, without being aware of that such
incidents happen, what one can do to to prevent them and how to behave
if one is stopped. I can understand that you don't want people to get
a bad impression, i love to go there too and I don't want that either.
But it is wrong to say that this problem does not exist as it
evidentely do.
Jan
> ?ystein wrote:
> >
> > There is no such thing as you and my reality in this respect.
>
> You are absolutely convinced that there is a high likelihood that
> foreigners will attract the attention of the police. Presumably based on
> your experience, that is your reality. Based on my experience, I am
> equally convinced that is not the case.
No high likelyhood. My 2 lasts visits, this year and last year, I have
been stopped both times at a train- og metrostation on the basis of
stopping at the entrance or outside the entrance looking like I don't
know where I was looking and therefore looked at a metromap. I can
understand that this is to advertise I am a tourist. Therefore I try
to make sure I don't do this again, to avoid this kind of attention.
There are not offices for the police marked "militsia" on the central
metrostops with the pupose of checking foreigners papers of course. I
assume the reason why they is there is to prevent pick pocketing and
the like.
The incidents took place in St Petersburg and Moscow I have never been
stopped anywhere else in the other 4 Eurorussian towns I have visited.
Several Russians working in the tourist business, confirms that this
incidents almost exclusively takes place in Moscow and St Petersburg
after their knowledge.
> > You can belive what you want, this problem is documentet by hundred of
> > tourist and tourist industry sources. One of the easies written
> > sources if you don't have personal experinece, is to consult the
> > latest edition of Lonely Planet.
>
> It wouldn't be the first time LONELY PLANET had incorrect or outdated
> information. Urban legends exist on any number of topics.
This is of course not the only source. It is still normal practice
among language schools and other institutions that organize tourist
trips to spesificly warn their guests about such police incidents, to
insist on keeping the original papers of their guest in the safe and
to instruct their guests to call them immidiately, if they get stopped
by the police. This is the case for this summer and last easter.
That mentioned, I think it is true that the situation over time is
improving in this respect. It is also true that it happends seldom. My
last and only creepy ecperience of this sort that is relatively new of
date was last easter in St Petersburg, late at night in the Nevsky
Prospekt area. First the petrol come up to me at the entrance at a bar
to see my papers, that I showed them. The owner of the place explained
to them in Russian though that I was a guest there and he run the
place so they were pretty polite. When I was leaving though the same
petrol stopped me again and behaved very rude and thretening accused
me for carrying drug and made me open all my pockets. I was leaving a
restaurant/bar and not a raveclub and of course I had nothing but a
citymap and chewing gum on me. The two metro-/trainstaion incidens
were just succers for stamps.
> > Jesus, your logic is like if I shold say that "in my reality" there
> > are no pick pocketers in Rome, just because I have never been robbed.
> > Be careful and you will probably be all right, it is not like such
> > incidens happends all the time.
>
> The example you cite about pickpockets is not germane. I know
> pickpockets exist even though I have never been a victim; I have both
> fended off a pickpocket attempt, observed pickpockets waiting for their
> next target, and commiserated with victims of pickpocketing.
You are communicating with one of many victims of such herrasment just
now. I also refere to exsamles of how Russian travel organizers warn
their guests this year. That said there is no doubt that the situation
isn't that bad as one can hear from the urban myths as you call it.
Try to drive a foreign car throuh Bellarus and I expect one to
experience what real trouble is
.> > I go there too and there is no so what. My initial question was that I
> > know St petersburg fairy well and could give some suggestinons
> > accoring to interests, if you wanted to see something of interest
> > outside the most trafficed tourist route.
>
> Actually, that's not what you wrote. Your post was a put-down of someone
> who wanted to visit the Hermitage and see a ballet performance. Had you
> simply made a helpful offer, I wouldn't have taken issue with your
> remarks. Here's what you wrote: (If you have any doubt about the
> accuracy of my quote, feel free to look your words up on Google.)
>
> "You have only suggeeted real tourist traps among the things you want
> to see though. Is that because you prefer only to see the tourist
> traps or because you don't know any other places that you could find
> interesting?"
I agree with you on that the formulation was bad. I should have used
"stops on the main tourist route" instead of "tourist trap". Those who
feel I am not to crazy about standing in line toursim are absolutely
right
.> My goal in posting was to offer a different point of view about the
> dire warnings you have posted about travel in Russia. Clearly, I won't
> convince you; I will leave it to other readers to draw their own
> conclusions based on the contents of our thread. I won't answer beyond
> this reply.
I don't have any intention to make an impression that this is a big
problem. One should not go though, without being aware of that such
incidents happen, what one can do to to prevent them and how to behave
if one is stopped. I can understand that you don't want people to get
a bad impression, i love to go there too and I don't want that either.
But it is wrong to say that this problem does not exist as it
evidentely do.
Jan
Aug 6th 2004, 1:31 am
#26
Guest
Posts: n/a
Re: Cruises to St. Petersburg
I'm beginning to feel left out. My wife and I spent a week in St.
Petersburg in June 2002. We explored the city at will both with and without
a guide. We were all over the city at various times of the day and night and
never once got stopped by the police or asked for our credentials. We used
public transit and private taxis from time to time but most of the time we
walked. While we did observe wandering groups of Gypsies, we're streetwise
enough to avoid any confrontation (as in any other city). I must admit we
did find some difficulties in communication but never once found anyone that
was not willing to at least try to help. We were successful in finding a
few English speakers who were as anxious to learn about life in the USA as
we were to learn about life in Russia. Our private guide really enhanced our
experience as made the trip feel more like we were traveling with a friend
than with a tourguide. Even our hotel turned out to be a great surprise (we
weren't expecting much for $100/night but the hotel turned out to be much
nicer than the hotels we had in Helsinki and Stockholm for twice the price).
Overall our trip to St. Petersburg was one of the best travel experiences
we've ever had. Our only regret was that we didn't allow more time but that
can be overcome by a return trip.
--
[email protected]
(Remove the mystery meat to reply!)
"?ystein" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> Karen Selwyn <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:<OaoQc.16037$Jo1.3418@lakeread01>...
> > > You take wrong assumptions. The likelyhood of beeing stopped is
> > > related with if they notice you as a foregner and the likelihood of
> > > being stopped and herassed is related to if they notice you as a
> > > (rich) foreigner that they will succeed to cheat for money.
> >
> > As I said, we'll agree to disagree. The situation you depict does not
> > match my reality. According to your list of don'ts my husband and I
> > should have been consistently harrassed by police. Nothing of the sort
> > happened. Incidentally, we -- along with the majority of the people in
> > our group -- did ride the metro in both Moscow and St. Petersburg, the
> > two places where tourists were most vulnerable to being stopped
> > according to your dire warnings. As I've already written, two separate
> > couples encountered pick-pockets, but no one was stopped by police.
> There is no such thing as you and my reality in this respect. Either
> reality is to a smaller or larger extent the way I describe or it is
> not.
> I did not suggest that it is any problem ON the metro. What I suggest
> is that it is often policepetrols situated at the entrances of the
> metrostations, they even have offices marked "militsia" on many
> metrostations. If you stop and not now where you are going, speak in a
> foreign language, look directly at them, or otherways advertise for
> their attention, you behave in one o the ways that increase the
> probability of being stopped. You should avoid being stopped by them
> because best case scenario is wasting time on showing a humourless
> policeman that your papers are ok, while if you are VERY unlucky worst
> case scenario is that you could get into trouble (read: behave in a
> way that make you feel very unconfortable, they can steal your papers
> or money, or make up something imaginary wrong with your papers that
> you have to pay them for in order for them to let you go - exsamples
> listed in order of probability and the probelm is reducing over time).
> You can belive what you want, this problem is documentet by hundred of
> tourist and tourist industry sources. One of the easies written
> sources if you don't have personal experinece, is to consult the
> latest edition of Lonely Planet.
> Jesus, your logic is like if I shold say that "in my reality" there
> are no pick pocketers in Rome, just because I have never been robbed.
> Be careful and you will probably be all right, it is not like such
> incidens happends all the time.
> > > It is hardly possible to disagree with that the Ermitage is a
> > > toursit-trap in the sense that toursits pay 10 times more than
> > > everybody else,
> >
> > So what? I have no problem conceptually with there being a price
> > difference between admission for Russian citizens and foreigners. The
> > collection in the Hermitage is most emphatically worth the price of
> > admission.
> I go there too and there is no so what. My initial question was that I
> know St petersburg fairy well and could give some suggestinons
> accoring to interests, if you wanted to see something of interest
> outside the most trafficed tourist route.
> Jan
Petersburg in June 2002. We explored the city at will both with and without
a guide. We were all over the city at various times of the day and night and
never once got stopped by the police or asked for our credentials. We used
public transit and private taxis from time to time but most of the time we
walked. While we did observe wandering groups of Gypsies, we're streetwise
enough to avoid any confrontation (as in any other city). I must admit we
did find some difficulties in communication but never once found anyone that
was not willing to at least try to help. We were successful in finding a
few English speakers who were as anxious to learn about life in the USA as
we were to learn about life in Russia. Our private guide really enhanced our
experience as made the trip feel more like we were traveling with a friend
than with a tourguide. Even our hotel turned out to be a great surprise (we
weren't expecting much for $100/night but the hotel turned out to be much
nicer than the hotels we had in Helsinki and Stockholm for twice the price).
Overall our trip to St. Petersburg was one of the best travel experiences
we've ever had. Our only regret was that we didn't allow more time but that
can be overcome by a return trip.
--
[email protected]
(Remove the mystery meat to reply!)
"?ystein" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> Karen Selwyn <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:<OaoQc.16037$Jo1.3418@lakeread01>...
> > > You take wrong assumptions. The likelyhood of beeing stopped is
> > > related with if they notice you as a foregner and the likelihood of
> > > being stopped and herassed is related to if they notice you as a
> > > (rich) foreigner that they will succeed to cheat for money.
> >
> > As I said, we'll agree to disagree. The situation you depict does not
> > match my reality. According to your list of don'ts my husband and I
> > should have been consistently harrassed by police. Nothing of the sort
> > happened. Incidentally, we -- along with the majority of the people in
> > our group -- did ride the metro in both Moscow and St. Petersburg, the
> > two places where tourists were most vulnerable to being stopped
> > according to your dire warnings. As I've already written, two separate
> > couples encountered pick-pockets, but no one was stopped by police.
> There is no such thing as you and my reality in this respect. Either
> reality is to a smaller or larger extent the way I describe or it is
> not.
> I did not suggest that it is any problem ON the metro. What I suggest
> is that it is often policepetrols situated at the entrances of the
> metrostations, they even have offices marked "militsia" on many
> metrostations. If you stop and not now where you are going, speak in a
> foreign language, look directly at them, or otherways advertise for
> their attention, you behave in one o the ways that increase the
> probability of being stopped. You should avoid being stopped by them
> because best case scenario is wasting time on showing a humourless
> policeman that your papers are ok, while if you are VERY unlucky worst
> case scenario is that you could get into trouble (read: behave in a
> way that make you feel very unconfortable, they can steal your papers
> or money, or make up something imaginary wrong with your papers that
> you have to pay them for in order for them to let you go - exsamples
> listed in order of probability and the probelm is reducing over time).
> You can belive what you want, this problem is documentet by hundred of
> tourist and tourist industry sources. One of the easies written
> sources if you don't have personal experinece, is to consult the
> latest edition of Lonely Planet.
> Jesus, your logic is like if I shold say that "in my reality" there
> are no pick pocketers in Rome, just because I have never been robbed.
> Be careful and you will probably be all right, it is not like such
> incidens happends all the time.
> > > It is hardly possible to disagree with that the Ermitage is a
> > > toursit-trap in the sense that toursits pay 10 times more than
> > > everybody else,
> >
> > So what? I have no problem conceptually with there being a price
> > difference between admission for Russian citizens and foreigners. The
> > collection in the Hermitage is most emphatically worth the price of
> > admission.
> I go there too and there is no so what. My initial question was that I
> know St petersburg fairy well and could give some suggestinons
> accoring to interests, if you wanted to see something of interest
> outside the most trafficed tourist route.
> Jan
Aug 6th 2004, 6:41 am
#27
Guest
Posts: n/a
Re: Cruises to St. Petersburg
"voyager" <[email protected]> wrote in message news:<[email protected]>...
> --
> [email protected]
> (Remove the mystery meat to reply!)
>
>
>
>
> "?ystein" <[email protected]> wrote in message
> news:[email protected]...
> > Karen Selwyn <[email protected]> wrote in message
> news:<OaoQc.16037$Jo1.3418@lakeread01>...
> >
> >
> > > > You take wrong assumptions. The likelyhood of beeing stopped is
> > > > related with if they notice you as a foregner and the likelihood of
> > > > being stopped and herassed is related to if they notice you as a
> > > > (rich) foreigner that they will succeed to cheat for money.
> > >
> > > As I said, we'll agree to disagree. The situation you depict does not
> > > match my reality. According to your list of don'ts my husband and I
> > > should have been consistently harrassed by police. Nothing of the sort
> > > happened. Incidentally, we -- along with the majority of the people in
> > > our group -- did ride the metro in both Moscow and St. Petersburg, the
> > > two places where tourists were most vulnerable to being stopped
> > > according to your dire warnings. As I've already written, two separate
> > > couples encountered pick-pockets, but no one was stopped by police.
> >
> > There is no such thing as you and my reality in this respect. Either
> > reality is to a smaller or larger extent the way I describe or it is
> > not.
> >
> > I did not suggest that it is any problem ON the metro. What I suggest
> > is that it is often policepetrols situated at the entrances of the
> > metrostations, they even have offices marked "militsia" on many
> > metrostations. If you stop and not now where you are going, speak in a
> > foreign language, look directly at them, or otherways advertise for
> > their attention, you behave in one o the ways that increase the
> > probability of being stopped. You should avoid being stopped by them
> > because best case scenario is wasting time on showing a humourless
> > policeman that your papers are ok, while if you are VERY unlucky worst
> > case scenario is that you could get into trouble (read: behave in a
> > way that make you feel very unconfortable, they can steal your papers
> > or money, or make up something imaginary wrong with your papers that
> > you have to pay them for in order for them to let you go - exsamples
> > listed in order of probability and the probelm is reducing over time).
> > You can belive what you want, this problem is documentet by hundred of
> > tourist and tourist industry sources. One of the easies written
> > sources if you don't have personal experinece, is to consult the
> > latest edition of Lonely Planet.
> >
> > Jesus, your logic is like if I shold say that "in my reality" there
> > are no pick pocketers in Rome, just because I have never been robbed.
> > Be careful and you will probably be all right, it is not like such
> > incidens happends all the time.
> >
> > > > It is hardly possible to disagree with that the Ermitage is a
> > > > toursit-trap in the sense that toursits pay 10 times more than
> > > > everybody else,
> > >
> > > So what? I have no problem conceptually with there being a price
> > > difference between admission for Russian citizens and foreigners. The
> > > collection in the Hermitage is most emphatically worth the price of
> > > admission.
> >
> > I go there too and there is no so what. My initial question was that I
> > know St petersburg fairy well and could give some suggestinons
> > accoring to interests, if you wanted to see something of interest
> > outside the most trafficed tourist route.
> >
> > Jan
> I'm beginning to feel left out.
Why? This is exactly the same experience as I and probably other
tourists have as well. As you say, you never got stopped by the
police. I almost never got stopped, I always got to know some Russians
working in a bar telling their story about the way the police entered
the bar while they war working there and others again have other
stories to tell. The only point is that is if you are VERY unlucky you
could get into trouble, just bear that in mine. Don't stay home and
miss the experience.
And, by the way. Always place your comments UNDER the posting you
comment on.
Jan
> --
> [email protected]
> (Remove the mystery meat to reply!)
>
>
>
>
> "?ystein" <[email protected]> wrote in message
> news:[email protected]...
> > Karen Selwyn <[email protected]> wrote in message
> news:<OaoQc.16037$Jo1.3418@lakeread01>...
> >
> >
> > > > You take wrong assumptions. The likelyhood of beeing stopped is
> > > > related with if they notice you as a foregner and the likelihood of
> > > > being stopped and herassed is related to if they notice you as a
> > > > (rich) foreigner that they will succeed to cheat for money.
> > >
> > > As I said, we'll agree to disagree. The situation you depict does not
> > > match my reality. According to your list of don'ts my husband and I
> > > should have been consistently harrassed by police. Nothing of the sort
> > > happened. Incidentally, we -- along with the majority of the people in
> > > our group -- did ride the metro in both Moscow and St. Petersburg, the
> > > two places where tourists were most vulnerable to being stopped
> > > according to your dire warnings. As I've already written, two separate
> > > couples encountered pick-pockets, but no one was stopped by police.
> >
> > There is no such thing as you and my reality in this respect. Either
> > reality is to a smaller or larger extent the way I describe or it is
> > not.
> >
> > I did not suggest that it is any problem ON the metro. What I suggest
> > is that it is often policepetrols situated at the entrances of the
> > metrostations, they even have offices marked "militsia" on many
> > metrostations. If you stop and not now where you are going, speak in a
> > foreign language, look directly at them, or otherways advertise for
> > their attention, you behave in one o the ways that increase the
> > probability of being stopped. You should avoid being stopped by them
> > because best case scenario is wasting time on showing a humourless
> > policeman that your papers are ok, while if you are VERY unlucky worst
> > case scenario is that you could get into trouble (read: behave in a
> > way that make you feel very unconfortable, they can steal your papers
> > or money, or make up something imaginary wrong with your papers that
> > you have to pay them for in order for them to let you go - exsamples
> > listed in order of probability and the probelm is reducing over time).
> > You can belive what you want, this problem is documentet by hundred of
> > tourist and tourist industry sources. One of the easies written
> > sources if you don't have personal experinece, is to consult the
> > latest edition of Lonely Planet.
> >
> > Jesus, your logic is like if I shold say that "in my reality" there
> > are no pick pocketers in Rome, just because I have never been robbed.
> > Be careful and you will probably be all right, it is not like such
> > incidens happends all the time.
> >
> > > > It is hardly possible to disagree with that the Ermitage is a
> > > > toursit-trap in the sense that toursits pay 10 times more than
> > > > everybody else,
> > >
> > > So what? I have no problem conceptually with there being a price
> > > difference between admission for Russian citizens and foreigners. The
> > > collection in the Hermitage is most emphatically worth the price of
> > > admission.
> >
> > I go there too and there is no so what. My initial question was that I
> > know St petersburg fairy well and could give some suggestinons
> > accoring to interests, if you wanted to see something of interest
> > outside the most trafficed tourist route.
> >
> > Jan
> I'm beginning to feel left out.
Why? This is exactly the same experience as I and probably other
tourists have as well. As you say, you never got stopped by the
police. I almost never got stopped, I always got to know some Russians
working in a bar telling their story about the way the police entered
the bar while they war working there and others again have other
stories to tell. The only point is that is if you are VERY unlucky you
could get into trouble, just bear that in mine. Don't stay home and
miss the experience.
And, by the way. Always place your comments UNDER the posting you
comment on.
Jan
Aug 6th 2004, 6:46 am
#28
Guest
Posts: n/a
Re: Cruises to St. Petersburg
"voyager" <[email protected]> wrote in message news:<[email protected]>...
> Even our hotel turned out to be a great surprise (we
> weren't expecting much for $100/night but the hotel turned out to be much
> nicer than the hotels we had in Helsinki and Stockholm for twice the price).
As a rule of thumb you can expect about 4 times a much for a given
price in Russia compared with Scandinavia. This is also about what one
should expect if the theory of exchagerates is right in practise.
Because there is a two price system on Russian hotels, meaning
foreigners pay roughly about 50% more than Russians, this can reduce
the over all picture a little bit when it comes to hotels.
Jan
> Even our hotel turned out to be a great surprise (we
> weren't expecting much for $100/night but the hotel turned out to be much
> nicer than the hotels we had in Helsinki and Stockholm for twice the price).
As a rule of thumb you can expect about 4 times a much for a given
price in Russia compared with Scandinavia. This is also about what one
should expect if the theory of exchagerates is right in practise.
Because there is a two price system on Russian hotels, meaning
foreigners pay roughly about 50% more than Russians, this can reduce
the over all picture a little bit when it comes to hotels.
Jan
Aug 8th 2004, 10:34 pm
#29
Guest
Posts: n/a
Re: Cruises to St. Petersburg
Laura F Spira <[email protected]> wrote in message news:<[email protected] k>...
> Karen Selwyn wrote:
> > ?ystein wrote:
> >
> >>
> >> No, if I can guess from what country you are by your name, you have to
> >> have a visa to visit Russia.
> >
> >
> > Do not use the information about land-based tour travel or independent
> > travel to answer visa questions about cruise ports of call in Russia.
> > The process is quite different. Cruise lines have made arrangements for
> > passengers taking ship-sponsored excursions in the city of St.
> > Petersburg to do so without the need for a tourist visa. Cruisers
> > wishing to tour independently or with St. Petersburg-based tour
> > companies must still obtain a visa. By offering their passengers the
> > "carrot" of visiting Russia without a visa, the cruise lines have
> > developed a strategy for maximizing their income for their excursions.
> >
>
> My understanding is that visas are always required for visiting Russia,
> however you arrive. For those arriving on a cruise ship, taking the
> cruise company's tour saves individuals the bother of getting their own
> because the company does it for them on a group basis. Similarly, when
> visiting Helsinki independently on a previous occasion, I was offered a
> sea trip to St Petersburg: a visa was needed but the tour organisers
> would arrange it. I have no doubt that the premium paid for the service
> is significant but I don't know how much cheaper it is to arrange your
> own visa, or how easy this is.
You have the exact right impression. Some travel agenies arrange the
apply for visa for their customers, but everybody (from a country that
need a visa) has to have a individual visa for entrying Russia. There
have been some simplifications when it comes to city-breaks and other
short visits the last few years, but as
rule of thumb you need a visa _before_ you arrive to Russia.
It is not difficult or expencive to arrange your own visa. If you
apply more than 10 days before you need to pick it up you get a better
price than if you need it on a shorter notice. Make sure you have a
letter of invitation before you arrive at the embassy. If the hotel
send you the letter by fax, make sure it is easy to read. If it is not
100% readable your application can get rejected. Also make 100% sure
that the entry and exit dates on the invitation are the same that you
asked for and have booked hotel for. Always take a copy of your letter
of invitation. You need 2 identical picures for the visa. You might
need to pay cash up front. Check the price and bring the money. Keep
the receipt until you pick up the visa. I am not sure if you have to
deliver your original passport in all countries, but at least you have
to in Norway. If you need your passport the next 10 days you have to
pasy for faster service (same day service costs about 10 times the
price as 10 days serivice in Norway).
Check your visa very carefully when you pick it up. Always bring your
copy of the letter of intivation. You have to make complaints about
errors at once when you get the visa back. Especially check the entry
and exit dates and of course the passportnumber. They always write my
name in cyrillic letters wrong, but it have never made any problems.
It is not uncommon that there are errors. If you ask them to correct
errors at once, they will do it without charging for it and normally
while you are waiting. If there are any mistakes you need the copy of
the invitation letter to prove if they are the ones that have made the
error. Also compare the passportnumer in your passport and at the
visa.
If you need to extend your visa, do so before you go to Russia if
possible. It is normally much easier to get this done before you leave
than in Russia. A good tip can be to make the hotel send you a letter
of invitation for a longer period than you need, in case you need a
longer period. There are different types of visas up to 30 days (One
month means 30 days no matter what month is in question) and 90 days.
This means that it is trickier to get a visa for more than 30 days if
you stay at a hotel under 30 days. Of course suggest this before you
accept to book a room at the hotel that gives you the invitation.
Don't even think about staying longer in Russia than you have a visa
for. As in other countries it is a very unpleasant experice.
When you come to Russia, don't even think of registering your visa
yourself. Pay your hotel to do it or other hotels than the one you
stay on will probably do this for you for a fee. You have to register
your visa within the first 3 days of your stay. Don't even think of
postponing this.
I have touristvisa in mind in the text above. There could be some
differences when it comes to other types of visas (the hotel will for
instance not send you a letter of invitation for a private visa;),
though most things are true for other types of visas as well.
Jan
Jan
> Karen Selwyn wrote:
> > ?ystein wrote:
> >
> >>
> >> No, if I can guess from what country you are by your name, you have to
> >> have a visa to visit Russia.
> >
> >
> > Do not use the information about land-based tour travel or independent
> > travel to answer visa questions about cruise ports of call in Russia.
> > The process is quite different. Cruise lines have made arrangements for
> > passengers taking ship-sponsored excursions in the city of St.
> > Petersburg to do so without the need for a tourist visa. Cruisers
> > wishing to tour independently or with St. Petersburg-based tour
> > companies must still obtain a visa. By offering their passengers the
> > "carrot" of visiting Russia without a visa, the cruise lines have
> > developed a strategy for maximizing their income for their excursions.
> >
>
> My understanding is that visas are always required for visiting Russia,
> however you arrive. For those arriving on a cruise ship, taking the
> cruise company's tour saves individuals the bother of getting their own
> because the company does it for them on a group basis. Similarly, when
> visiting Helsinki independently on a previous occasion, I was offered a
> sea trip to St Petersburg: a visa was needed but the tour organisers
> would arrange it. I have no doubt that the premium paid for the service
> is significant but I don't know how much cheaper it is to arrange your
> own visa, or how easy this is.
You have the exact right impression. Some travel agenies arrange the
apply for visa for their customers, but everybody (from a country that
need a visa) has to have a individual visa for entrying Russia. There
have been some simplifications when it comes to city-breaks and other
short visits the last few years, but as
rule of thumb you need a visa _before_ you arrive to Russia.
It is not difficult or expencive to arrange your own visa. If you
apply more than 10 days before you need to pick it up you get a better
price than if you need it on a shorter notice. Make sure you have a
letter of invitation before you arrive at the embassy. If the hotel
send you the letter by fax, make sure it is easy to read. If it is not
100% readable your application can get rejected. Also make 100% sure
that the entry and exit dates on the invitation are the same that you
asked for and have booked hotel for. Always take a copy of your letter
of invitation. You need 2 identical picures for the visa. You might
need to pay cash up front. Check the price and bring the money. Keep
the receipt until you pick up the visa. I am not sure if you have to
deliver your original passport in all countries, but at least you have
to in Norway. If you need your passport the next 10 days you have to
pasy for faster service (same day service costs about 10 times the
price as 10 days serivice in Norway).
Check your visa very carefully when you pick it up. Always bring your
copy of the letter of intivation. You have to make complaints about
errors at once when you get the visa back. Especially check the entry
and exit dates and of course the passportnumber. They always write my
name in cyrillic letters wrong, but it have never made any problems.
It is not uncommon that there are errors. If you ask them to correct
errors at once, they will do it without charging for it and normally
while you are waiting. If there are any mistakes you need the copy of
the invitation letter to prove if they are the ones that have made the
error. Also compare the passportnumer in your passport and at the
visa.
If you need to extend your visa, do so before you go to Russia if
possible. It is normally much easier to get this done before you leave
than in Russia. A good tip can be to make the hotel send you a letter
of invitation for a longer period than you need, in case you need a
longer period. There are different types of visas up to 30 days (One
month means 30 days no matter what month is in question) and 90 days.
This means that it is trickier to get a visa for more than 30 days if
you stay at a hotel under 30 days. Of course suggest this before you
accept to book a room at the hotel that gives you the invitation.
Don't even think about staying longer in Russia than you have a visa
for. As in other countries it is a very unpleasant experice.
When you come to Russia, don't even think of registering your visa
yourself. Pay your hotel to do it or other hotels than the one you
stay on will probably do this for you for a fee. You have to register
your visa within the first 3 days of your stay. Don't even think of
postponing this.
I have touristvisa in mind in the text above. There could be some
differences when it comes to other types of visas (the hotel will for
instance not send you a letter of invitation for a private visa;),
though most things are true for other types of visas as well.
Jan
Jan
Aug 8th 2004, 10:51 pm
#30
Guest
Posts: n/a
Re: Cruises to St. Petersburg
?ystein kirjoitti:
>It is not difficult or expencive to arrange your own visa. If you
>apply more than 10 days before you need to pick it up you get a better
>price than if you need it on a shorter notice. Make sure you have a
>letter of invitation before you arrive at the embassy. If the hotel
>
What about one is not invited and yet willing to apply for a visa? It is
not granted?
>It is not difficult or expencive to arrange your own visa. If you
>apply more than 10 days before you need to pick it up you get a better
>price than if you need it on a shorter notice. Make sure you have a
>letter of invitation before you arrive at the embassy. If the hotel
>
What about one is not invited and yet willing to apply for a visa? It is
not granted?
