-PeterL

On Mar 26, 3:31 am, John Stolz <[email protected]> wrote:
> I had my credit card stolen in Geneva last week and was surprised that
> the thief was able to use it at more than 10 stores without the PIN. I
> thought the pin system was supposed to be unbreakable?
>
> Not my money being stolen, but it is inconvenient being without a card
> until I get a new one.


Why would anyone need a PIN to use a credit card?

EvelynVogtGamble

tile wrote:

> "Mike O'Sullivan" <[email protected]> ha scritto nel messaggio
> news:[email protected]...
>
>>EvelynVogtGamble(Divamanque) wrote:
>>
>>>>I use a trick now. I do not sign my credit cards.
>>>
>>>Pardon me if the logic of your "trick" escapes me! The purpose of
>>>signing your card is for your own protection - to make it difficult for
>>>any one else to forge your signature. Although it is possible for the
>>>thief to also be an expert forger, it's unlikely. However, if YOU don't
>>>sign your credit card, what is to prevent the thief doing so? (In which
>>>case his/her signature would agree with the one on the card.)
>>
>>I think he was being facetious.
>
>
> well. The credit card company has my signature.

True. How does this help the vendor accepting your
(unsigned) card?

> My passport has my signature. ( I guess every passport has.. )
> So. whoever steals my card will have to prove that
>
> he is me.. with proper papers
> he can sign like me

The most likely form of ID (and the only one most vendors
require) being your signed credit card! (Are you REALLY
that clueless, or are these posts a troll?)

> My credit card is authomatically debited to my account..
> so in case of theft they will first debit my account. then they will wait
> until i can prove I have not made the expenses that have been debited.
> in italy. i need to go to police and make a written declaration about them.
> Then the credit card company will eventually refund me ( I think my card is
> also insured agianst fraudolent use ).-

That is a "debit card", NOT a "credit card"! A credit card
involves a monthly bill to you, and you may contest any
unauthorized charges with the credit-card company, rather
than paying them. (If what you say about being required to
file a police report in Italy, rather than deal directly
with the credit card company, I can be grateful all my cards
are with American companies!)

kurkku

"PeterL" <[email protected]> kirjoitti
viestiss�:[email protected] glegroups.com...
> On Mar 26, 3:31 am, John Stolz <[email protected]> wrote:
>> I had my credit card stolen in Geneva last week and was surprised that
>> the thief was able to use it at more than 10 stores without the PIN. I
>> thought the pin system was supposed to be unbreakable?
>>
>> Not my money being stolen, but it is inconvenient being without a card
>> until I get a new one.
>
>
> Why would anyone need a PIN to use a credit card?
>
Go to an unmanned gas station and fill the tank with plastic without typing
the key. It may work in America but doesn't do so in Europe.

Padraig Breathnach

"PeterL" <[email protected]> wrote:

>Why would anyone need a PIN to use a credit card?

Because that is the way things have gone in much of Europe.

--
PB
The return address has been MUNGED
My travel writing: http://www.iol.ie/~draoi/

Tile

"EvelynVogtGamble(Divamanque)" <[email protected]> ha scritto nel
messaggio news:[email protected]...
>
>
> tile wrote:
>
>> "Mike O'Sullivan" <[email protected]> ha scritto nel messaggio
>> news:[email protected]...
>>
>>>EvelynVogtGamble(Divamanque) wrote:
>>>
>>>>>I use a trick now. I do not sign my credit cards.
>>>>
>>>>Pardon me if the logic of your "trick" escapes me! The purpose of
>>>>signing your card is for your own protection - to make it difficult for
>>>>any one else to forge your signature. Although it is possible for the
>>>>thief to also be an expert forger, it's unlikely. However, if YOU don't
>>>>sign your credit card, what is to prevent the thief doing so? (In which
>>>>case his/her signature would agree with the one on the card.)
>>>
>>>I think he was being facetious.
>>
>>
>> well. The credit card company has my signature.
>
> True. How does this help the vendor accepting your (unsigned) card?
>
>> My passport has my signature. ( I guess every passport has.. )
>> So. whoever steals my card will have to prove that
>>
>> he is me.. with proper papers
>> he can sign like me
>
> The most likely form of ID (and the only one most vendors require) being
> your signed credit card! (Are you REALLY that clueless, or are these
> posts a troll?)
>
>> My credit card is authomatically debited to my account..
>> so in case of theft they will first debit my account. then they will
>> wait
>> until i can prove I have not made the expenses that have been debited.
>> in italy. i need to go to police and make a written declaration about
>> them. Then the credit card company will eventually refund me ( I think my
>> card is also insured agianst fraudolent use ).-
>
> That is a "debit card", NOT a "credit card"! A credit card involves a
> monthly bill to you, and you may contest any unauthorized charges with the
> credit-card company, rather than paying them. (If what you say about
> being required to file a police report in Italy, rather than deal directly
> with the credit card company, I can be grateful all my cards are with
> American companies!)

when i show my credit card without signature I have two possibilities
In Italy with my ID
aborad with my passport.

I have two credit cards..
AMEX and Visa

both of them are debited to my account every month
After I read my statement of account. I can approve it or not.
But my money has gone for a while.
I do not think in Europe credit cards are treated in a different way.
Of course. I can choose to pay after receiving my statement of account. but
then payements are delayed and so on.

I have been using credit cards for over 20 years.
Only once 10 eur have been debited that should not have been
The credit card company credited them after one month
No problem

James Silverton

EvelynVogtGamble(Divamanque) wrote on Mon, 26 Mar 2007
10:22:56 -0700:

<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<
Precisely why I vehemently refuse my bank's frequent
cheerful offers of a combination ATM/Debit-card to replace
the ATM card I specifically demanded when I opened my
account! True, I could contest fraudulent charges in any
case - the difference is that, with a debit card, the money
is no longer in my account and the bank may take its own
sweet time replacing it. If I dispute a credit card charge,
I simply don't PAY it! (True, the credit-card company may
impose interest on any unpaid portion of my account, but it
gets rescinded when the matter is resolved.)

<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<

I'm with you there. I have an ATM card and credit cards but no
debit card. My credit union says that their rules insist that
they "must" send me one but my shredder does quite a good job.

James Silverton
Potomac, Maryland

E-mail, with obvious alterations:
not.jim.silverton.at.comcast.not

gpope

On Mon, 26 Mar 2007 19:04:43 +0100, Padraig Breathnach
<[email protected]> wrote:

>"PeterL" <[email protected]> wrote:
>
>>Why would anyone need a PIN to use a credit card?
>
>Because that is the way things have gone in much of Europe.


I read the above with interest. Does that mean that when I take my
Canadian Master card or Visa to use in Europe, I will be required to
have a PIN number for them? Is this new? Is this widespread?

In Canada, the only time you need a credit card pin is at a cash
machine.

Since I don't need a PIN for my CC, I don't have one. Not one I
remember anyway.


Does this mean I have to now get one?

Thanks for this alert.

[email protected]

Nightjar

"Alec" <alexis2525 @ mail.com> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
>
> "John Stolz" <[email protected]> wrote in message
> news:[email protected]...
>>I had my credit card stolen in Geneva last week and was surprised that the
>>thief was able to use it at more than 10 stores without the PIN. I
>>thought the pin system was supposed to be unbreakable?
>>
>> Not my money being stolen, but it is inconvenient being without a card
>> until I get a new one.
>>
>>
> In Switzerland a lot of establishments aren't wired up with chip and pin
> terminals, so your card was processed for signature and your thief just
> copied your squiggles.

When I had cards stolen, before chip and PIN, they didn't even bother to
copy my signature. They crudely erased it and put their own version of my
name on. However, nobody spotted it, probably because they didn't check the
signature at all.

Colin Bignell

-PeterL

On Mar 26, 11:01 am, Markku Gr�nroos <[email protected]> wrote:
> "PeterL" <[email protected]> kirjoitti
> viestiss�:[email protected] glegroups.com...> On Mar 26, 3:31 am, John Stolz <[email protected]> wrote:
> >> I had my credit card stolen in Geneva last week and was surprised that
> >> the thief was able to use it at more than 10 stores without the PIN. I
> >> thought the pin system was supposed to be unbreakable?
>
> >> Not my money being stolen, but it is inconvenient being without a card
> >> until I get a new one.
>
> > Why would anyone need a PIN to use a credit card?
>
> Go to an unmanned gas station and fill the tank with plastic without typing
> the key. It may work in America but doesn't do so in Europe.


Many US gas stations require entering the zip code (postal code). But
OP says the thieves used his card in stores.

Nightjar

"tile" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...

> pls note that fraudolent use of credit cards is normal in internet. In
> internet it is not possible to make security checks.

Any card I accept has passed about 20 different checks, not all obvious
ones. Later this year online retailers in the UK will be expected to adopt
the 3D secure system, which additionally requires the customer to input a
password via a secure server.

> the person that accepts credit cards is obliged to ask for identification
> documents.

Not true in the UK

> I use a trick now. I do not sign my credit cards.
> It will be almost impossible for any thief to make a signature similar to
> mine,

They don't have to. They only have to have a signature that matches the one
on the card. If you don't sign your card, the thief will and will get a
perfect match.

Colin Bignell

-PeterL

On Mar 26, 11:04 am, Padraig Breathnach <[email protected]> wrote:
> "PeterL" <[email protected]> wrote:
> >Why would anyone need a PIN to use a credit card?
>
> Because that is the way things have gone in much of Europe.


I have used my US credit card plenty of time in Europe, never having
to enter a PIN number.

Does this only apply to European credit cards?



>
> --
> PB
> The return address has been MUNGED
> My travel writing:http://www.iol.ie/~draoi/

Jack Campin - bogus addre

>>> Why would anyone need a PIN to use a credit card?
>> Because that is the way things have gone in much of Europe.
> I have used my US credit card plenty of time in Europe, never
> having to enter a PIN number.
> Does this only apply to European credit cards?

No. If a retailer doesn't want to accept a card they don't have to,
and there was a thread here a few weeks ago about a British mobile
phone company that wouldn't take PIN-less cards (i.e. they'd decided
that US customers weren't worth the hassle and risk).

Expect to see more of this.

============== j-c ====== @ ====== purr . demon . co . uk =============Jack Campin: 11 Third St, Newtongrange EH22 4PU, Scotland | tel 0131 660 4760
<http://www.purr.demon.co.uk/jack/> for CD-ROMs and free | fax 0870 0554 975
stuff: Scottish music, food intolerance, & Mac logic fonts | mob 07800 739 557

kurkku

"PeterL" <[email protected]> kirjoitti
viestiss�:[email protected] egroups.com...
On Mar 26, 11:01 am, Markku Gr�nroos <[email protected]> wrote:
> "PeterL" <[email protected]> kirjoitti
> viestiss�:[email protected] glegroups.com...> On Mar
> 26, 3:31 am, John Stolz <[email protected]> wrote:
> >> I had my credit card stolen in Geneva last week and was surprised that
> >> the thief was able to use it at more than 10 stores without the PIN. I
> >> thought the pin system was supposed to be unbreakable?
>
> >> Not my money being stolen, but it is inconvenient being without a card
> >> until I get a new one.
>
> > Why would anyone need a PIN to use a credit card?
>
> Go to an unmanned gas station and fill the tank with plastic without
> typing
> the key. It may work in America but doesn't do so in Europe.


Many US gas stations require entering the zip code (postal code). But
OP says the thieves used his card in stores.
____________________________________________

All the European pay cards will be equipped with a chip which will gradually
replace the magnetic tape. More and more common it is at stores that
verification is not fullfilled by signing a receipt but by typing the pin
code while the card is in a special purpose card reader. I have done this
many times. I guess a couple of more years and this will be a standard
procedure throughout Europe and in most places outside Europe.

Thieves can use the card in the trivial case they have learned the key code
(for instance by peeking the typing of the owner behind his back before the
theft has taken place). Also at this phase of evolution, the European
plastic has BOTH the chip AND the magnetic tape. This is for the obvious
reason that not all the vendors have terminal devices which can read the
chip. In these instances validation of the transaction is made in
conventional fashion by signing the bill. When value of the merchandise is
not substantial but a few dozen euros in maximum, identification is not
typically required.

Runge1

Duh

"EvelynVogtGamble(Divamanque)" <[email protected]> a écrit dans le
message de news: [email protected]...
>
>
> James Silverton wrote:
>
>
>>
>> Given the small size scribble on the back of my credit card, I would thnk
>> that practically any "signature" would be acceptable if they bothered to
>> look. In any case, you will usually get charged whether or not you have
>> signed the receipt. A particular example is buying gas when no signature
>> is asked at the pump. I don't usually manage to write anything that
>> looks like my usual signature when I am asked to use one of those touch
>> sensitive pads either.
>
> Precisely why I vehemently refuse my bank's frequent cheerful offers of a
> combination ATM/Debit-card to replace the ATM card I specifically demanded
> when I opened my account! True, I could contest fraudulent charges in any
> case - the difference is that, with a debit card, the money is no longer
> in my account and the bank may take its own sweet time replacing it. If I
> dispute a credit card charge, I simply don't PAY it! (True, the
> credit-card company may impose interest on any unpaid portion of my
> account, but it gets rescinded when the matter is resolved.)

-JohnT

"PeterL" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected] oups.com...
> On Mar 26, 3:31 am, John Stolz <[email protected]> wrote:
>> I had my credit card stolen in Geneva last week and was surprised that
>> the thief was able to use it at more than 10 stores without the PIN. I
>> thought the pin system was supposed to be unbreakable?
>>
>> Not my money being stolen, but it is inconvenient being without a card
>> until I get a new one.
>
>
> Why would anyone need a PIN to use a credit card?

The following article from the BBC website of 14 February 2006 explains it.
The USA will adopt the same technogoly eventually.
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/business/4705842.stm

JohnT