ATM's.......

Old Aug 17th 2002, 9:35 pm
  #1351  
Mika
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[email protected] (Vitaly Shmatikov) wrote in message
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    > Because Europeans, as always, are suckers for all things American, or, rather,
    > things that are sold to them as American?

Yeah, we even take showers now once a week. And some of us have been seen
using an ATM.

m
 
Old Aug 17th 2002, 9:41 pm
  #1352  
Mika
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[email protected] (Hatunen) wrote in message
news:<[email protected]>...
    > On 16 Aug 2002 17:26:53 -0700, [email protected] (Mika) wrote:
    > >[email protected] (amp_spamfree) wrote in message
    > >news:<[email protected] .com>...
    > >> [email protected] (Hatunen) wrote in message
    > >> news:<[email protected]>...
    > >> And here it is - the ultimate "Bayerische" Schweinschnitzel Wiener Art" - not
    > >> the dried out veal, but real pork. Now that is authentic.
    > Um. I didn't say that. Please mind your quotes.

Sorry, bad snippage.

M
 
Old Aug 18th 2002, 4:34 am
  #1353  
Vitaly Shmatikov
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In article <[email protected]> , amp_spamfree
<[email protected]> wrote:

    >> Because Europeans, as always, are suckers for all things American, or, rather,
    >> things that are sold to them as American?
    >Another backhanded slap at Europeans? I see a lot more Mercedes in the US than I do
    >Chryslers in Germany.

I don't know a whole lot about cars, but I thought that Mercedeses have a
reputation for high quality (correct me if I am wrong). So, lots of Mercedeses in
the US would show, if anything, that Americans import quality stuff from Europe,
whereas Europeans seem to go mostly for assorted American trash: sitcoms, Planet
Hollywood, etc.

    >Your insistence that Planet Hollywood is not typical American fare is an interesting
    >one. If not the large "American" chains and not McDonalds, what is American food?

This has been discussed to death. Google it up. It's different in different
parts of the US, and, for example, in California, yes, it would most certainly
include poblanos.

    >> You can get poblanos and tortillas at Sainsbury's only in the same sense that
    >> you can get ``American'' food at the Hard Rock Cafe. In which case I have to
    >> admit the question indeed becomes ``Why would you?''
    >Maybe I'm not the food snob you pretend to be? Or perhaps I can take fairly routine
    >and common ingredients and make them tast exotic...? Or maybe you're struggling to
    >back pedal from the "no you can't"?

I am not a food snob, nor pretend to be one. I have simple tastes (but I do like
some variety every now and then, even if fed by ``a mix of French and Italian
influences'' daily). I also applaud your culinary prowess. All I am pointing out
that is that you cannot get tortillas and poblanos at Sainsbury's unless you
redefine what they are. Same deal for ``American'' food at the Hard Rock Cafe.

    >> That wouldn't be Hard Rock Cafe by any chance, would it? My range of
    >> experiences is so limited that you are the first person I encountered who seems
    >> to take Hard Rock Cafe seriously as a source of good food.
    >Who ever said it was good food? I simply pointed out that with hundreds of these
    >around, they characterize American food.

There are hundreds of Olive Gardens around the US, but I suspect that you'd have
a hard time convincing an Italian that they ``characterize'' Italian food. What
characterizes American food (as well as any other food) is a) ingredients, b)
how they are cooked. Hard Rock Cafe fails the definition of ``American food'' on
both counts.

    >Do you honestly believe that true American cooking (not the regional ethnic stuff)
    >is a cusine of merit or note - or even "style"?

I honestly do.

    >A slab of meat on the grill, a bucket of fries or for the truly refined, a baked
    >potato, and a bowl of iceberg lettuce all washed down with a Bud Light.
[...]
    >Big plate full of greasy bland tasting meat and potatoes with a light beer.

What was it that you said about ``a limited range of experiences?'' If there *were*
decent American eateries in Europe, maybe you could widen your range a bit,
otherwise I'm afraid someone from Chicago will have to tell you where to eat when
you are back there.

    >> Le Foc Ly is, more or less, the Hard Rock Cafe of Chinese food, which might
    >> very well make it authentic in your eyes.
    >Considering it is in Paris, there's a rift already in the fabric of authentim.

Actually, Le Foc Ly is *not* in Paris. It's in Neuilly. And it's Chinese only in
the same sense that the Hard Rock Cafe is American, which is to say, ``not very.''
They both go for kitschy ``ethnic'' decor and the food apparently was inspired at
some point by its ostensible country of origin. Good or authentic it isn't.

    >But for truely authentic Japanese food, you need a bit more than $70 - been there,
    >done that - Tokyo comes to mind.

You seem to know as little about good food to Tokyo as in Paris or America. You
most certainly don't need more than $70 to eat well in Tokyo. You can certainly
spend $70 and $700, if you wish, but it's hardly necessary.

    >When in doubt as to the quality of a restaurant, the road warrior is ALWAYS the best
    >person to ask - and if money isn't a barrier, the road warrior suit is your best bet
    >- not the junior faculty on a backpack budget.

You are not thinking that I am a junior faculty with a backpack budget, are you?
(FYI: I am not junior faculty, nor do I have backpack budgets). Road warriors are
indeed good people to ask, but surely not the ones in suits. They rarely seem to
know much about good food - just expensive, corporate and not too adventurous. For
all I know, ask them about ethnic food in Paris, and they'll send you to Foc Ly for
Chinese and Hard Rock Cafe for American.
 
Old Aug 18th 2002, 5:18 am
  #1354  
Vitaly Shmatikov
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In article <[email protected] >, amp_spamfree
<[email protected]> wrote:

    >> 78 employees *is* large-scale comparing with two guys on a boat. You are
    >> talking trawlers, I am talking a guy with twenty lobster traps.
    >78 employees is far from large scale.

I can only repeat: it *is* large-scale comparing with two guys on a boat. I've
been talking about places where you can buy fish from a small boat that goes out in
the morning, comes back in the afternoon and sells its daily catch. Comparing with
that, most fishing anywhere is large-scale.

    >First it's big and commercial and now it's small and quaint - are you just
    >contrarian or do you think no one will notice.

Look, you'll have to read what I wrote, there is no other way. Most fishing
anywhere is large-scale, yet even in America - just like in Spain and Portugal -
there are plenty of places on the coast where you can get fresh fish right from a
small boat - which *is* small comparing with trawlers and 78-person operations.

    >"...is better than in coastal Europe." "...Much prettier than Europe, too." "...most
    >of the west coast and New England are cold water." [in reference to cold water fish
    >being better]
    >So it really isn't "in the same manner", it's bigger, better, and American.

It's better for the variety of fish, it's prettier (purely personal judgment, I
admit) and most of the west coast and New England are indeed cold water. But
the reference to cold water fish being better was not mine (although I probably
agree with it).

    >What you are saying is that no matter what, America is better than Europe for any
    >kind of food - this time using seafood as an example.

America is not better than Europe for *any* kind of food. Balti (and Indian in
general) is better in the UK. Higher-end French cuisine is not so much better, but
more widely available in France. I wish there were more 1- or 2-star-type places
scattered around the US like they are in Dordogne, Alsace or near Lyon. There is
no Katjes Katzenpfoetchen in America, unfortunately. But if you want to have a
good meal 3 times a day and are not willing to limit yourself to a ``mix of French
and Italian influences,'' America is undeniably better than Europe.

    >So this massive dominance based on cold water geography is what, hot air?

Since I never claimed that America's ``massive dominance'' is based on coldwater
geography, I don't know what to tell you. Somebody posted that ``cold water fish
usually [is] better.'' I agreed with that and observed that a large chunk of
American coast is cold water.

    >Most of the salmon in the US doesn't come from Alaska at all. It comes from BC and
    >it comes from farms.

BC is not part of the US, it's part of Canada, it's strange that you don't seem to
know this. Most salmon in the US comes from Alaska. Maybe you are talking about
salmon imported to the US, in which case the biggest source is not BC, it's Chile
(your numbers seem a few years old).

    >But then farmed salmon production (1.2 million tonnes annually) exceeds wild salmon
    >globally anyway (750,000 tonnes). Farmed salmon is BCs largest agricultural export
    >crop. Alaska isn't getting into the farmed area because the small commercial
    >fisherman can't face the price competition and they've mad it illegal.

This is really fascinating, and it convincingly demonstrates... what? That there
is more farmed salmon than wild salmon? As long as wild salmon is readily
available, that's what I am going to be eating. Do I care where it comes from?
Not really. Is American
(e.g., Alaskan) salmon better than the salmon you'd normally get in Europe? You
bet. Although Scotland and Norway are good, too.

    >You have yet to get a fact to support your opinion of culinary domination.

I posted plenty of facts, and all I got in response was a load of, uhm, stuff I
could not invent if I tried. American bread is the ``mushy stuff that the
toothless can eat,'' American cheese comes from a can, American food is a ``big
plate full of greasy bland tasting meat and potatoes with a light beer,'' there are
no imported chocolates in American stores, American salmon comes from BC, etc. etc.

Alright, so folks don't seem to know much about America. But what they post about
Europe is hardly better, even going as far as suggesting Hard Rock Cafe as a source
of American food in Paris. I am afraid that no facts will help in the face of
such, to borrow an expression, staggering ignorance.
 
Old Aug 18th 2002, 6:32 am
  #1355  
Vitaly Shmatikov
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In article <[email protected]>, devil <[email protected]> wrote:

    >> Ethnic food is not more valuable than Italian stuff *per se*. But it's nice to
    >> have variety: Thai yesterday, Italian today, Fredonian tomorrow. A place where
    >> one can get a variety of different foods is clearly superior to a place where
    >> it's ``a mix of French and Italian influences'' day after day, even assuming
    >> that this mix is good (which it often isn't).
    >I rest my case.
    >It's clear that you have no idea what top quality cooking is about.

That might be so, but how on earth did you extract it from what I said above? I've
eaten at my share of 3- (Lucas-Carton, Pierre Gagnaire, French Laundry, Le
Bernardin), 2- (Jamin - albeit in the post-Robuchon era, Le Bec Fin, Nanao, about a
couple dozen others) and 1-star places. Most were excellent, some were the best
gastronomic experiences of my life. But I doubt I'd want to eat at any of them
every day of the week. There is more to food than stuffed squirrel tails with
amandes torrefiees. Nothing wrong with a good curry or a bowl of lagman or a taco.

    >(And yes, there is top quality stuff. But it is not going to be Thai or Chinese.
    >What you are talking about is your regular going on for food thing.)

I *am* talking about the regular food thing. The top end is the same everywhere.
Shell out $300, and you'll be eating truffle-studded this and that no matter where
you are, in Moscow, Hong Kong or Oakhurst, Calif. But I imagine few people want to
do this every day, and not even because of the price.
 
Old Aug 18th 2002, 6:43 pm
  #1356  
Amp_spamfree
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[email protected] (Vitaly Shmatikov) wrote in message
news:<[email protected]>...
    > In article <[email protected] >, amp_spamfree
    > <[email protected]> wrote:
    > >> 78 employees *is* large-scale comparing with two guys on a boat. You are
    > >> talking trawlers, I am talking a guy with twenty lobster traps.
    > >
    > >78 employees is far from large scale.
    > I can only repeat: it *is* large-scale comparing with two guys on a boat. I've
    > been talking about places where you can buy fish from a small boat that goes out
    > in the morning, comes back in the afternoon and sells its daily catch. Comparing
    > with that, most fishing anywhere is large-scale.

Most fishing is a family with a handful of boats selling to canners and wholesalers -
I gave you the data but you insist...fine.

    > >First it's big and commercial and now it's small and quaint - are you just
    > >contrarian or do you think no one will notice.
    > Look, you'll have to read what I wrote, there is no other way. Most fishing
    > anywhere is large-scale, yet even in America - just like in Spain and Portugal -
    > there are plenty of places on the coast where you can get fresh fish right from a
    > small boat - which *is* small comparing with trawlers and 78-person operations.

No finishing, with the exceptin of Japan is large scale. In consideration of the
fragmented market, there is no scale - economically speaking, whatsoever.

    > >"...is better than in coastal Europe." "...Much prettier than Europe, too."
    > >"...most of the west coast and New England are cold water." [in reference to cold
    > >water fish being better]
    > >
    > >So it really isn't "in the same manner", it's bigger, better, and American.
    > It's better for the variety of fish,

No it's not - not even close. You missed out on dozens upon dozens of warm water
varieties.

    > it's prettier (purely personal judgment, I admit)

Not all Kennybunkport and Martha's Vineyard.

    > and most of the west coast and New England are indeed cold water. But the
    > reference to cold water fish being better was not mine (although I probably agree
    > with it).

That they are.

    > >What you are saying is that no matter what, America is better than Europe for any
    > >kind of food - this time using seafood as an example.
    > America is not better than Europe for *any* kind of food. Balti (and Indian in
    > general) is better in the UK. Higher-end French cuisine is not so much better,
    > but more widely available in France. I wish there were more 1- or 2-star-type
    > places scattered around the US like they are in Dordogne, Alsace or near Lyon.
    > There is no Katjes Katzenpfoetchen in America, unfortunately. But if you want to
    > have a good meal 3 times a day and are not willing to limit yourself to a ``mix
    > of French and Italian influences,'' America is undeniably better than Europe.

Which explains Macoroni Grill, Fudruckers, and all those wonderfully American
innovations.
    > >So this massive dominance based on cold water geography is what, hot air?
    > Since I never claimed that America's ``massive dominance'' is based on coldwater
    > geography, I don't know what to tell you. Somebody posted that ``cold water fish
    > usually [is] better.'' I agreed with that and observed that a large chunk of
    > American coast is cold water.
    > >Most of the salmon in the US doesn't come from Alaska at all. It comes from BC
    > >and it comes from farms.
    > BC is not part of the US, it's part of Canada, it's strange that you don't seem
    > to know this. Most salmon in the US comes from Alaska.

walk into your local fish monger and ask where the Salmon is from. Then walk over to
the tinned stuff...that's the Alaskan.

    > Maybe you are talking about salmon imported to the US, in which case the biggest
    > source is not BC, it's Chile (your numbers seem a few years old).

And you have NO numbers...or is this too a Vitaly op?

    > >But then farmed salmon production (1.2 million tonnes annually) exceeds wild
    > >salmon globally anyway (750,000 tonnes). Farmed salmon is BCs largest
    > >agricultural export crop. Alaska isn't getting into the farmed area because the
    > >small commercial fisherman can't face the price competition and they've mad it
    > >illegal.
    > This is really fascinating, and it convincingly demonstrates... what? That there
    > is more farmed salmon than wild salmon? As long as wild salmon is readily
    > available, that's what I am going to be eating.

Do you REALLY think you are eating Alaskan wild salmon when you go to the local docks
for your seafood? Is it frozen?

    > Do I care where it comes from? Not really. Is American
    > (e.g., Alaskan) salmon better than the salmon you'd normally get in Europe? You
    > bet. Although Scotland and Norway are good, too.

And Sweden, and Finland, and dozens of other places. London is closer to Norway than
Chicago is to Portland. You do the math.
    > >You have yet to get a fact to support your opinion of culinary domination.
    > I posted plenty of facts,

Not a single fact - all opinions and all ethnocentric chest thumping.

    > and all I got in response was a load of, uhm, stuff I could not invent if I tried.
    > American bread is the ``mushy stuff that the toothless can eat,''

Wonderbread comes to mind. Processed bleached wheat.

    > American cheese comes from a can,

Cheeze-whiz? kraft processed cheese food? Come on, Vitaly - your typical american
lives on this stuff - the infamous grilled cheese sandwhich...what's that?
Camembert?

    > American food is a ``big plate full of greasy bland tasting meat and potatoes
    > with a light beer,''

Not exavtlymy words, but close enough.

    >there are no imported chocolates in American stores,

There are no imported American chocolates at sainsburies - well, except hershey bars
and milky ways - but even those are made locally.

    >American salmon comes from BC, etc.

Saömon found on store shelves all over america havbe a greater chance being
from someplace OTHER than Alaska - the stuff in the tin, we'll, I wouldn't feed
it to my cat.
    > etc.

Why is it that people come at you with these comments?
    > Alright, so folks don't seem to know much about America.

I bet I have lived in the US for more years than you, and likely in more towns
and cities.

    >But what they post about Europe is hardly better, even going as far as
    >suggesting Hard Rock Cafe as a source of American food in Paris.

If it isn't American, what is it?

    >I am afraid that no facts will help in the face of such, to borrow an
    >expression, staggering ignorance.

I know, and that's why Im giving up on you - because your ignorance is quite
staggering, exceeded only by your pompous arrogance.

but thanks for playing.
 
Old Aug 18th 2002, 6:53 pm
  #1357  
Amp_spamfree
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"Tim Challenger" <[email protected]> wrote in message
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    > > For your personal edification - Wiener Art - here's what it is - Requires a THIN
    > > cut or one that is pounded thin
    > So the Altwienerbrathendl is beaten thin? News to me. I never noticed the
    > splintered bones. I suppose that then isn't "Wiener Art"?

Obviously not. Nor is the Altwiener Tanzweisen. If it were, then it would be
Chicken Vienna style - not Old Vienna chicken, OK?
 
Old Aug 18th 2002, 7:08 pm
  #1358  
Amp_spamfree
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"Tim Challenger" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:<[email protected] ay.telekom.at>...
    > >> I've never heard it described as "Wiener Art" before
    > >I gave you some the links to bonafide German restaurants in German where it is
    > >described EXACTLY like that
    > Perhaps I should have added "...in Austria, except when it's made of pork".
    > And thanks anyway, but I do know how to make a Wienerschnitzel.

Then fine - but still, if you can't tell the difference between geography and style,
how was I supposed to know?

    > As I see it I think the argument rests on the which came first principle.

What came first was a germanic culture, not a geographic border.

    > 1)In Vienna they were making this dish, then it became popular in Germany. Then it
    > is an authentic Viennese dish, and not a german one. (read: A Schnitzel cooked in
    > the way the Viennese actually do it);


    > 2) In Vienna other dishes were cooked in flour, crumbs etc....but not a veal
    > cutlet. Then the Germans started cooking veal in bread and we have an authentic
    > German dish (read: a cutlet cooked in the way the Viennese cook lots of other
    > foods but not this one)
    > To be honest, I haven't really heard of a typical Viennese style of cooking. The
    > Schnitzel and Backhendl, are the only thinks I have come across cooked like that
    > and named Viennese. So, at least nowadays it's not too typical.

The point is - just because it has Vienna in its name doesn't make it Viennese.

    > Which was it ? I obviously tip for the first, you for the second. And the twain
    > shall never meet....unless, of course, there's a third alternative..... I have
    > heard that it may actually have originated in France, but have no hard evidence of
    > that. The "well-known fact" that it originated in Milan and was brought to Austria
    > by Raditzsky after a visit by the Kaiser has been refuted and now believed to have
    > been a hoax. Tim.

Regardless - the wienerschnitzel is a hallmark German dish, regardless of what you
might want to believe. If you subscribe to evolution, then likely we are all eating
African food anyway.

done?
 
Old Aug 18th 2002, 7:13 pm
  #1359  
Frank Matthews
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amp_spamfree wrote:

** deleted **

    > Cheeze-whiz? kraft processed cheese food? Come on, Vitaly - your typical american
    > lives on this stuff - the infamous grilled cheese sandwhich...what's that?
    > Camembert?


Personally I like Cheshire for my grilled cheese sandwiches. Camembert just doesn't
have the right flavor.

I prefer Amish Swiss for my burgers though.

Frank Matthews


** deleted **
 
Old Aug 18th 2002, 8:30 pm
  #1360  
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Default Re: ATM's.......

Originally posted by Frank Matthews:
amp_spamfree wrote:

** deleted **

    > Cheeze-whiz? kraft processed cheese food? Come on, Vitaly - your typical american
    > lives on this stuff - the infamous grilled cheese sandwhich...what's that?
    > Camembert?


Personally I like Cheshire for my grilled cheese sandwiches. Camembert just doesn't
have the right flavor.

I prefer Amish Swiss for my burgers though.

Frank Matthews


** deleted **
Emmental not your thing then Frank?
newstartnz is offline  
Old Aug 18th 2002, 9:00 pm
  #1361  
Hatunen
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On Sun, 18 Aug 2002 19:13:11 GMT, Frank Matthews <[email protected]> wrote:

    >amp_spamfree wrote:
    >** deleted **
    >> Cheeze-whiz? kraft processed cheese food? Come on, Vitaly - your typical
    >> american lives on this stuff - the infamous grilled cheese sandwhich...what's
    >> that? Camembert?
    >Personally I like Cheshire for my grilled cheese sandwiches. Camembert just doesn't
    >have the right flavor.
    >I prefer Amish Swiss for my burgers though.

Oh, dear. Amish Swiss? From Middletown, Ohio, perhaps?


************ DAVE HATUNEN ([email protected]) ***********
* Tucson Arizona, out where the cacti grow * ******* My typos are
intentional copyright traps ******
 
Old Aug 18th 2002, 9:03 pm
  #1362  
David Lewis
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Default Re: ATM's.......

In article <[email protected]>, Frank Matthews
<[email protected]> writes
    >amp_spamfree wrote:
    >** deleted **
    >> Cheeze-whiz? kraft processed cheese food? Come on, Vitaly - your typical
    >> american lives on this stuff - the infamous grilled cheese sandwhich...what's
    >> that? Camembert?
    >Personally I like Cheshire for my grilled cheese sandwiches. Camembert just doesn't
    >have the right flavor.
    >I prefer Amish Swiss for my burgers though.
    >Frank Matthews
The very best cheese for cooking is Lancashire cheese. This is pretty well
accepted by the best chefs in this country (UK).

Marie

--
David Lewis [email protected]
 
Old Aug 19th 2002, 3:17 am
  #1363  
Frank Matthews
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newstartnz wrote:

    > Originally posted by Frank Matthews:
    >>amp_spamfree wrote:
    >>** deleted **
    >>>Cheeze-whiz? kraft processed cheese food? Come on, Vitaly - your typical
    >>>american lives on this stuff - the infamous grilled cheese sandwhich...what's
    >>>that? Camembert?
    >>Personally I like Cheshire for my grilled cheese sandwiches. Camembert just doesn't
    >>have the right flavor.
    >>I prefer Amish Swiss for my burgers though.
    >>Frank Matthews
    >>** deleted **
    > Emmental not your thing then Frank?
    > --


It tends to be too dry.

Frank


    > Posted via http://britishexpats.com
 
Old Aug 19th 2002, 8:38 am
  #1364  
Amp_spamfree
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[email protected] (Mika) wrote in message
news:<[email protected]. com>...
    > [email protected] (amp_spamfree) wrote in message
    > news:<[email protected]. com>...
    > > [email protected] (Hatunen) wrote in message
    > > news:<[email protected]>...
    > > And here it is - the ultimate "Bayerische" Schweinschnitzel Wiener Art" - not the
    > > dried out veal, but real pork. Now that is authentic.
    > >
    > Objection Yeronner. If a restaurant has Wienerschnitzel on their menu, the
    > implication is that it is veal, and that's no different in Bavaria. If it isn't
    > veal, they are required 'by law' to state that it is "Wienerschnitzel vom Schwein".
    > Or even "Wienerschnitzel von der Pute", in which case there's no chance in hell
    > that I'll order it. Blame it on the BSE scare. Even the Turks sell turkey doener
    > these days (10% turkey, 90% sawdust).

No - read again - Schweinschnitzel Wiener Art. OK? That is authentic Bavarian - at
least for authentic Bavarians. You see, not all of use could afford veal after WWI -
nor do all of us subscribe to methods used to make veal fillets.

amp
 
Old Aug 19th 2002, 9:07 am
  #1365  
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[email protected] (Vitaly Shmatikov) wrote in message
news:<[email protected]>...
    > In article <[email protected]> , amp_spamfree
    > <[email protected]> wrote:

Still don't get what this has to do with AIR travel - RTA cross-post snipped.

    > >> Because Europeans, as always, are suckers for all things American, or, rather,
    > >> things that are sold to them as American?
    > >
    > >Another backhanded slap at Europeans? I see a lot more Mercedes in the US than I
    > >do Chryslers in Germany.
    > I don't know a whole lot about cars, but I thought that Mercedeses have a
    > reputation for high quality (correct me if I am wrong). So, lots of Mercedeses
    > in the US would show, if anything, that Americans import quality stuff from
    > Europe, whereas Europeans seem to go mostly for assorted American trash: sitcoms,
    > Planet Hollywood, etc.

Because Europeans are not, as always, suckers for all things American. OK, blue jeans
perhaps, but not Timex. Maybe Europeans are more discerning about quality than
Americans?

    > >Your insistence that Planet Hollywood is not typical American fare is an
    > >interesting one. If not the large "American" chains and not McDonalds, what is
    > >American food?
    > This has been discussed to death. Google it up.

I did - and all I found were the tired vitalyisms that consist of foot stamping and
examples of local or regional ethnic recipes as examples of "American". In no case
has anyone brought forward examples of true American cuisine that couldn't be traced
to a specific location or non-American ethnicity.

    > It's different in different parts of the US, and, for example, in California, yes,
    > it would most certainly include poblanos.

Then it isn't exactly "American" cuisine, it's Californian.

    > >> You can get poblanos and tortillas at Sainsbury's only in the same sense that
    > >> you can get ``American'' food at the Hard Rock Cafe. In which case I have to
    > >> admit the question indeed becomes ``Why would you?''
    > >
    > >Maybe I'm not the food snob you pretend to be? Or perhaps I can take fairly
    > >routine and common ingredients and make them tast exotic...? Or maybe you're
    > >struggling to back pedal from the "no you can't"?
    > I am not a food snob, nor pretend to be one.

You're right - you aren't just a food snob.

    >I have simple tastes (but I do like some variety every now and then, even if fed
    >by ``a mix of French and Italian influences'' daily). I also applaud your
    >culinary prowess. All I am pointing out that is that you cannot get tortillas and
    >poblanos at Sainsbury's unless you redefine what they are.

"Redefine? Sure, we may call it coriander but it's still cilantro to
me. A poblano is a poblano - whether it comes from Mexico or Spain. And a tortilla,
unless made fresh in front of you, is still packed in eights or tens and sits on
the shelf - be it Dominicks or Sainsbury's.

    > Same deal for ``American'' food at the Hard Rock Cafe.

If it isn't American food, what the hell is it?

    > >> That wouldn't be Hard Rock Cafe by any chance, would it? My range of
    > >> experiences is so limited that you are the first person I encountered who
    > >> seems to take Hard Rock Cafe seriously as a source of good food.
    > >
    > >Who ever said it was good food? I simply pointed out that with hundreds of these
    > >around, they characterize American food.
    > There are hundreds of Olive Gardens around the US, but I suspect that you'd have
    > a hard time convincing an Italian that they ``characterize'' Italian food.

No, Olive Garden's characterize AMERICANIZED Italian food. And that's the point -
Hard Rock represents American cuisine - if not, then what? Look on the menu and read
through - everything from a BLT to Burgers. The fact that there aren't any grits on
the menu is only because grits aren't American, they are southern.

    > What characterizes American food (as well as any other food) is a) ingredients, b)
    > how they are cooked. Hard Rock Cafe fails the definition of ``American food'' on
    > both counts.

Beef and potatoes grilled and baked? What kind of world are you living in? What are
truly Am,erican ingredients and what is a truly American cooking style?

What characterizes food is neither ingredients or cooking style but rather tastes and
textures. You've never had professional culinary training, have you.

    > >Do you honestly believe that true American cooking (not the regional ethnic
    > >stuff) is a cusine of merit or note - or even "style"?
    > I honestly do.

Then provide an example or two of typical American cuisine that is readily available
in American restaurants across America. What ingredients and what cooking style
makes it uniquely American?

    > >A slab of meat on the grill, a bucket of fries or for the truly refined, a baked
    > >potato, and a bowl of iceberg lettuce all washed down with a Bud Light.
    > [...]
    > >Big plate full of greasy bland tasting meat and potatoes with a light beer.
    > What was it that you said about ``a limited range of experiences?'' If there
    > *were* decent American eateries in Europe, maybe you could widen your range a
    > bit, otherwise I'm afraid someone from Chicago will have to tell you where to eat
    > when you are back there.

Still, you can't come up with a single example what makes Hard Rock, Fudruckers or
Fridays unamerican. Or perhaps for seafood one should try Red Lobster? These chains
are your staples - they are all over and represent what the majority of Americans
know of and associate with American food other than the drive through.

    > >> Le Foc Ly is, more or less, the Hard Rock Cafe of Chinese food, which might
    > >> very well make it authentic in your eyes.
    > >
    > >Considering it is in Paris, there's a rift already in the fabric of authentim.
    > Actually, Le Foc Ly is *not* in Paris. It's in Neuilly. And it's Chinese only
    > in the same sense that the Hard Rock Cafe is American, which is to say, ``not
    > very.'' They both go for kitschy ``ethnic'' decor and the food apparently was
    > inspired at some point by its ostensible country of origin. Good or authentic it
    > isn't.

Hard Rock is not "American"? Please.

    > >But for truely authentic Japanese food, you need a bit more than $70 - been there,
    > >done that - Tokyo comes to mind.
    > You seem to know as little about good food to Tokyo as in Paris or America. You
    > most certainly don't need more than $70 to eat well in Tokyo. You can certainly
    > spend $70 and $700, if you wish, but it's hardly necessary.

And how much was the Kobe beef? If you want to enjoy top of the line Japanese
cuisine, I'd suggest the Tokyo City Club - now, you'll need to be a member (or be
invited) but for a mere $200 (at 110 yen per) you too can enjoy the best Tokyo
has to offer.

    > >When in doubt as to the quality of a restaurant, the road warrior is ALWAYS the
    > >best person to ask - and if money isn't a barrier, the road warrior suit is your
    > >best bet - not the junior faculty on a backpack budget.
    > You are not thinking that I am a junior faculty with a backpack budget, are you?
    > (FYI: I am not junior faculty, nor do I have backpack budgets).

2 years out of university - what are you, some Russian nobleman? Please vitaly, don't
put on aires of sophistication - your brush with culinary greatness doesn't compare
to what many of my colleagues and I do - day in and day out.

    > Road warriors are indeed good people to ask, but surely not the ones in suits.
    > They rarely seem to know much about good food - just expensive, corporate and
    > not too adventurous.

You have no concept of what execs know or don't know about food. The least
adventurous traveler I ever had the misfortune of spending time with outside the US
was a young computer geek from California. Didn't want anything to do with sushi
(raw fish - gross), or anything that wasn't readily identifiable as either a meat or
a potato. Really sent him over the edge when the lobster's tail moved.

    >For all I know, ask them about ethnic food in Paris, and they'll send you to Foc
    >Ly for Chinese and Hard Rock Cafe for American.

Because you can't afford one and don't recognize your own cuisine in the other
doesn't make your observation about what corporate execs may or may not know very
convincing. You need to get out more.

amp
 

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