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Another French customer service experience

Another French customer service experience

Old Oct 30th 2004, 5:53 am
  #16  
Jeremy
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Default Re: Another French customer service experience

On 2004-10-30 19:05:40 +0200, Mxsmanic <[email protected]> said:

    > Jeremy Henderson writes:
    >
    >> A little over a month ago I bought a pair of shoes from Minelli - a
    >> chain of shoe shops here in Frogland. After 4 weeks of occasional wear
    >> to take me from home to the RER station to work and back I noticed that
    >> the heels of both shoes were completely destroyed, with holes appearing
    >> where the thin rubber had been worn away.
    >
    > Buy shoes with better heels. Cheap shoes (cheaply constructed, that is,
    > which isn't necessarily correlated with price) can be worn out very
    > easily in that period of time, if you walk a lot.

I think selling poorly constructed shoes under a high price tag
corresponds to a "vice cache".

    >> It's true that I am hard on shoes, but this is certainly the first time
    >> that they've disintegrated quite so rapidly.
    >
    > Next time, buy better shoes.

Thanks for the advice, Mixup. I'll be sure to write that down.

    >> So I decided to return them to the shop.
    >
    > After four weeks?

Absolutely. It's not acceptable for shoes to be worn out in 4 weeks.
It's never happened before.

    >> I suppose I was expecting an unfriendly reception, but I was shocked by
    >> the aggressiveness and abusiveness that I actually received.
    >
    > That's pretty typical for French shops. However, whatever her attitude,
    > it's true that you shouldn't expect replacement or refund of shoes that
    > you've been wearing for a month. The changes you describe correspond to
    > wear and tear, not defective workmanship.

Wear and tear has different effects, depending on the characteristics
of the shoes in question.If the shoe was of defective materials and
design to start with, then normal wear wil have an unacceptable effect.
Since I didn't take the precaution of X-raying the shoe to start with
to determine the thickness of rubber coating the soles then I had no
way of judging that before parting with my cash.

    >> So I will end with a plea for advice from our French readers, and other
    >> knowledgeable folk: what organisations exist to look after the rights
    >> of consumers in France, what recourse do I have, and where can I inform
    >> myself of my options (yes, Google ... :-)
    >
    > It's impossible to give any advice without looking at the shoes in
    > question, and knowing what you paid for them.

I'm not asking your advice as an expert on shoes (though I seem to have
got that for free). I was asking about the general resources available
to the consumer. If you have something to contribute apart from truisms
and uninformed speculation it would be welcome.

    > I don't think the store owes you anything if you simply wore them out,
    > no matter how quickly you did so. Unless there's a defect in
    > manufacturing, it's up to you to buy replacements.

I think it's self-evident that there was a defect in the shoes -
whether in manufacturing or elsewhere.
 
Old Oct 30th 2004, 6:14 am
  #17  
Miguel Cruz
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Default Re: Another French customer service experience

Mxsmanic <[email protected]> wrote:
    > Jeremy Henderson writes:
    >> Now my problem is finding out who to complain to in order to exercise
    >> my rights ... ?
    > You don't have rights when it comes to normal wear and tear.

Soles worn through after 4 weeks of light use is not "normal wear and tear".

miguel
--
Hit The Road! Photos from 32 countries on 5 continents: http://travel.u.nu
 
Old Oct 30th 2004, 6:23 am
  #18  
Ellie C
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Default Re: Another French customer service experience

Sjoerd wrote:

    > "Jeremy Henderson" <[email protected]> schreef in bericht
    > news:[email protected]...
    >
    >>In a continuing series...
    >>A little over a month ago I bought a pair of shoes from Minelli -
    >
    >
    > What a whiner you are. You bought bad shoes. Take your loss and go on with
    > your life.
    >
    > Sjoerd
    >
    >
What about the idea that the company made bad shoes? Is this impossible?
Do companies have no responsibilities to provide useful products? Or
do you truly believe that the invisible hand will sort all this out?
 
Old Oct 30th 2004, 6:37 am
  #19  
nitram
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Default Re: Another French customer service experience

On Sat, 30 Oct 2004 18:18:58 +0200, "Sjoerd"
<[email protected]> wrote:

    >"Jeremy Henderson" <[email protected]> schreef in bericht
    >news:[email protected]...
    >> In a continuing series...
    >> A little over a month ago I bought a pair of shoes from Minelli -
    >What a whiner you are. You bought bad shoes. Take your loss and go on with
    >your life.

Is that what you'd do yourself in the Netherlands, Sjoerd.
--
Martin
 
Old Oct 30th 2004, 6:42 am
  #20  
nitram
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Default Re: Another French customer service experience

On Sat, 30 Oct 2004 19:07:01 +0200, Mxsmanic <[email protected]>
wrote:

    >Jeremy Henderson writes:
    >> Yes, I did - but why should I take the loss?
    >Because you wore them out.
    >> Is it "whining" to expect things you pay money for to fulfil
    >> their function?
    >Yes, if you expect them never to wear out in doing so.

I guess a bright guy like you knows what EU/national consumer law has
to say about this sort of thing?
--
Martin
 
Old Oct 30th 2004, 6:43 am
  #21  
nitram
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Default Re: Another French customer service experience

On Sat, 30 Oct 2004 19:47:30 +0200, Jeremy Henderson wrote:

    >On 2004-10-30 19:07:01 +0200, Mxsmanic <[email protected]> said:
    >> Jeremy Henderson writes:
    >>
    >>> Yes, I did - but why should I take the loss?
    >>
    >> Because you wore them out.
    >>
    >>> Is it "whining" to expect things you pay money for to fulfil
    >>> their function?
    >>
    >> Yes, if you expect them never to wear out in doing so.
    >Remind me where my post used the word "never".
    >Oh yes, it didn't. So, just another of your little straw men, eh?

Did you receive a written guarantee with the shoes, Jeremy?
--
Martin
 
Old Oct 30th 2004, 6:52 am
  #22  
nitram
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Default Re: Another French customer service experience

On Sat, 30 Oct 2004 19:53:26 +0200, Jeremy Henderson wrote:

Under EU/National law an article has to be suitable for the purpose
for which it was sold.

My son recently had a watch fall apart 6 months after it was sold the
written guarantee only covered the quartz mechanism. First attempt and
the Dutch retailer said the guarantee didn't cover it. Second attempt
mentioning EU consumer law and they agreed to repair or replace it at
their expense.

I had a similar success with something else that didn't work properly
because of a design error at Dutch Dixons. Initially no result except
rudeness, raised voice in a full shop and mentioned EU/Dutch consumer
rights and a full refund was given.

    >I'm not asking your advice as an expert on shoes (though I seem to have
    >got that for free). I was asking about the general resources available
    >to the consumer. If you have something to contribute apart from truisms
    >and uninformed speculation it would be welcome.

Contact the French Consumer Association.
--
Martin
 
Old Oct 30th 2004, 6:54 am
  #23  
Jeremy
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Default Re: Another French customer service experience

On 2004-10-30 20:43:42 +0200, [email protected] said:

    > Did you receive a written guarantee with the shoes, Jeremy?

My mistake. I should have ensured I got a notarized document certifying
that shoes are suitable for wearing on the feet.

J;
 
Old Oct 30th 2004, 6:54 am
  #24  
nitram
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Default Re: Another French customer service experience

On Sat, 30 Oct 2004 19:06:15 +0200, Mxsmanic <[email protected]>
wrote:

    >Jeremy Henderson writes:
    >> Now my problem is finding out who to complain to in order to exercise
    >> my rights ... ?
    >You don't have rights when it comes to normal wear and tear.

You do have rights.

One month isn't normal wear and tear for a pair of man's shoes.
Clarkes shoes last years, without wearing out or falling apart.
--
Martin
 
Old Oct 30th 2004, 8:04 am
  #25  
Jeremy Henderson
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Default Re: Another French customer service experience

On 2004-10-30 19:05:40 +0200, Mxsmanic <[email protected]> said:


    > I've had shoes resoled after several years in Paris for free--French
    > shoes sold at a French shop.

Mixup and a cobbler. "The distinction is unimportant" as someone might say.

J;

--
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http://cerbermail.com/?nKYh3qN4YG
 
Old Oct 30th 2004, 8:14 am
  #26  
nitram
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Default Re: Another French customer service experience

On Sat, 30 Oct 2004 20:54:06 +0200, Jeremy Henderson wrote:

    >On 2004-10-30 20:43:42 +0200, [email protected] said:
    >> Did you receive a written guarantee with the shoes, Jeremy?
    >My mistake. I should have ensured I got a notarized document certifying
    >that shoes are suitable for wearing on the feet.

If you didn't get a written guarantee, the retailer has zero rights.
--
Martin
 
Old Oct 30th 2004, 8:16 am
  #27  
Erilar
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Default Re: Another French customer service experience

In article <[email protected]>, Jeremy Henderson
<[email protected]> wrote:

    > I suppose I was expecting an unfriendly reception, but I was shocked by
    > the aggressiveness and abusiveness that I actually received.

Based on my admittedly rather limited experience in France, I find
it about average.


    > So I will end with a plea for advice from our French readers, and other
    > knowledgeable folk: what organisations exist to look after the rights
    > of consumers in France, what recourse do I have

My guess is: none

--
Mary Loomer Oliver (aka Erilar)

You can't reason with someone whose first line of argument
is that reason doesn't count. Isaac Asimov

Erilar's Cave Annex: http://www.airstreamcomm.net/~erilarlo
 
Old Oct 30th 2004, 8:27 am
  #28  
Owain
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Default Re: Another French customer service experience

Martin wrote
    | Mike O'Sullivan wrote:
    | >Remember that consumer protection rights are very strong in the UK.
    | >The retailer has an absolute legal responsibility to take complaints
    | >seriously, and not try and pass them off to the manufacturer.

In particular, any fault found with goods within the first six months of
purchase is deemed to have been a defect at the time of purchase unless the
retailer can prove otherwise.

    | >Having said that, these are rights under EC law, and I would have
    | >thought applied equally in France. I hope you pursued this complaint!
    | Consumer rights are supposed to be harmonised throughout the EU.

There are minimum standards, yes, but that is not the same as equal. Fairly
recently, an EU directive required consumers to be permitted to be able to
seek redress for a period of two years after purchase. (Some people in the
UK have misunderstood this as meaning a two year minimum guarantee.) Before
this directive, some countries did not allow consumers any legal redress
after as little as six months from the date of purchase.

The directive is meaningless in the UK as consumers have (and have long had,
under generat statute of limitations) the right of redress against the
retailer for up to six years from the date of purchase in England and Wales.
This does not mean a six year guarantee. It means that legal action may be
launched; such legal action might not be successful. The courts will
determine what is "reasonable". A 99p pair of flipflops will not be expected
to last as long as a GBP200 pair of handmade brogues.

Owain
 
Old Oct 30th 2004, 8:51 am
  #29  
Mxsmanic
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Default Re: Another French customer service experience

Miguel Cruz writes:

    > Soles worn through after 4 weeks of light use is not "normal wear and tear".

Who said anything about light use? And how do you know what's normal
without knowing how well the shoes are made?

--
Transpose hotmail and mxsmanic in my e-mail address to reach me directly.
 
Old Oct 30th 2004, 8:52 am
  #30  
Mxsmanic
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Default Re: Another French customer service experience

[email protected] writes:

    > One month isn't normal wear and tear for a pair of man's shoes.

Why not?

My shoes last a bit over a year--but I can put 5000 km on them in that
time.

    > Clarkes shoes last years, without wearing out or falling apart.

It's not time, it's distance. What distance are they good for?

--
Transpose hotmail and mxsmanic in my e-mail address to reach me directly.
 

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