B Vaughan

On Fri, 05 Nov 2004 10:13:49 +0100, Ulf Kutzner
<[email protected]> wrote:

    >B Vaughan schrieb:
    >
    >> Having translated names is one measure of how important a city is.
    >> Nobody translates the names of hick towns into any language.
    >Check this in Southern Tyrol.

As I said in another post, I don't consider this a translation into
another language. Both languages are spoken in the region, and each
language has its own indigenous names for the towns. It's not like
London being translated into French and Italian.
--
Barbara Vaughan
My email address is my first initial followed by my surname at libero dot it
I answer travel questions only in the newsgroup

Frank F. Matthews

B Vaughan wrote:

    > On Fri, 05 Nov 2004 10:13:49 +0100, Ulf Kutzner
    > <[email protected]> wrote:

    >>B Vaughan schrieb:

    >>>Having translated names is one measure of how important a city is.
    >>>Nobody translates the names of hick towns into any language.

    >>Check this in Southern Tyrol.

    > As I said in another post, I don't consider this a translation into
    > another language. Both languages are spoken in the region, and each
    > language has its own indigenous names for the towns. It's not like
    > London being translated into French and Italian.

I agree & wonder just how one manages to translate a place name? What
is the content that is to be translated. I'll grant that there are some
"Nord Kappe" could be translated to "Cape North" but how do you
translate something like Bergen?

Ulf Kutzner

"Frank F. Matthews" schrieb:

    > I agree & wonder just how one manages to translate a place name? What
    > is the content that is to be translated. I'll grant that there are some
    > "Nord Kappe" could be translated to "Cape North" but how do you
    > translate something like Bergen?

Check this in Mons/Bergen in Belgium.

Regards, ULF

Ulf Kutzner

B Vaughan schrieb:

    > >> Having translated names is one measure of how important a city is.
    > >> Nobody translates the names of hick towns into any language.
    > >
    > >Check this in Southern Tyrol.
    >
    > As I said in another post, I don't consider this a translation into
    > another language. Both languages are spoken in the region, and each
    > language has its own indigenous names for the towns.

Err, in South Tyrol, the percentage of Italian-speaking population was
next to zero in the countryside. This is/was different from
Bozen/Bolzano.

The Italian government did not want to tolerate the use of German names,
so they translated all of them.

The official bilingual status is more recent.

Regards, ULF

Ulf Kutzner

B Vaughan schrieb:

    > >of the French- and German-speaking regions. In French it's "Bienne"
    > >and in German "Biel". Both names are used on loal road signs. (It
    > >probably has an Italian name as well.)
    >
    > That's not really a case of translation, though, but of two language
    > communities who live in the same area and have their own names for the
    > towns. There are many such examples in Alto Adige in Italy, where
    > nearly every town has a German and an Italian name.

I am afraid you are not right for Alto Adige/South Tyrol, although
(almost?) all place names exist in German and Italian.

Regards, ULF

Miguel Cruz

Frank F. Matthews <[email protected]> wrote:
    > I agree & wonder just how one manages to translate a place name? What
    > is the content that is to be translated. I'll grant that there are some
    > "Nord Kappe" could be translated to "Cape North" but how do you
    > translate something like Bergen?

The proper word is probably transliterate - change he name into something
more palatable to the speakers of another language. Nobody in the European
language tradition can pronounce most of the Arab and middle Eastern place
names, for instance, so they get changed to stuff that is clearly related
but still very different.

miguel
--
Hit The Road! Photos from 32 countries on 5 continents: http://travel.u.nu

Henry

Miguel Cruz <[email protected]> wrote:

    > Frank F. Matthews <[email protected]> wrote:
    > > I agree & wonder just how one manages to translate a place name? What
    > > is the content that is to be translated. I'll grant that there are some
    > > "Nord Kappe" could be translated to "Cape North" but how do you
    > > translate something like Bergen?
    >
    > The proper word is probably transliterate - change he name into something
    > more palatable to the speakers of another language.

Erm...not exactly. 'Transliterate' means to represent a word from one
language in another language with a different orthographic system. This
is (most usually) done by trying to render the phonology into the target
language. However, it is highly problematic, since there is rarely a
direct correspondence even of similar sounds.

One simple example is the name for the capital of China. In Chinese, of
course, it has always been written using the same character(s). In
English, the sounds have in the past been transliterated as Peiping,
Peking and (the currently popular one) Beijing. English speakers
pronounce these words differently, yet all are attempts to capture the
sound(s) of the _one_ Chinese name. _That_ is transliteration.

Is it Osama or Usama? Same problem, trying to render from a different
script.

Bombay? Mumbai?

&c., &c.

cheers,

Henry

Miguel Cruz

Henry <[email protected]> wrote:
    > Miguel Cruz <[email protected]> wrote:
    >> Frank F. Matthews <[email protected]> wrote:
    >>> I agree & wonder just how one manages to translate a place name? What
    >>> is the content that is to be translated. I'll grant that there are some
    >>> "Nord Kappe" could be translated to "Cape North" but how do you
    >>> translate something like Bergen?
    >>
    >> The proper word is probably transliterate - change he name into something
    >> more palatable to the speakers of another language.
    > Erm...not exactly. 'Transliterate' means to represent a word from one
    > language in another language with a different orthographic system. This
    > is (most usually) done by trying to render the phonology into the target
    > language. However, it is highly problematic, since there is rarely a
    > direct correspondence even of similar sounds.

Far as I can tell, that's pretty much what I said. Different words, though.

miguel
--
Hit The Road! Photos from 32 countries on 5 continents: http://travel.u.nu

Hatunen

On Fri, 5 Nov 2004 19:41:07 +0200, [email protected] (Henry)
wrote:

    >One simple example is the name for the capital of China. In Chinese, of
    >course, it has always been written using the same character(s). In
    >English, the sounds have in the past been transliterated as Peiping,
    >Peking and (the currently popular one) Beijing.

Largely by diktat of the Chinese government.


************* DAVE HATUNEN ([email protected]) *************
* Tucson Arizona, out where the cacti grow *
* My typos & mispellings are intentional copyright traps *

Hatunen

On Fri, 05 Nov 2004 14:35:00 +0100, B Vaughan<[email protected]>
wrote:

    >On Thu, 04 Nov 2004 22:37:25 GMT, "David Gee" <[email protected]>
    >wrote:
    >>There is a small market town in Switzerland located right on the divide
    >>of the French- and German-speaking regions. In French it's "Bienne"
    >>and in German "Biel". Both names are used on loal road signs. (It
    >>probably has an Italian name as well.)
    >That's not really a case of translation, though, but of two language
    >communities who live in the same area and have their own names for the
    >towns. There are many such examples in Alto Adige in Italy, where
    >nearly every town has a German and an Italian name.

Likewise for Finland, where many locales have both Swedish and
Finnish names, and not always so obviouly related as
Helsinki/Helsingfors.

************* DAVE HATUNEN ([email protected]) *************
* Tucson Arizona, out where the cacti grow *
* My typos & mispellings are intentional copyright traps *

Devil

On Fri, 05 Nov 2004 17:46:26 +0100, Ulf Kutzner wrote:

    > "Frank F. Matthews" schrieb:
    >
    >> I agree & wonder just how one manages to translate a place name? What
    >> is the content that is to be translated. I'll grant that there are some
    >> "Nord Kappe" could be translated to "Cape North" but how do you
    >> translate something like Bergen?
    >
    > Check this in Mons/Bergen in Belgium.

Straight translation.

(Plus some minor changes such as an s instead of a t at the end of Mons.
Clearly related to Latin. Why Bergen is the plural I don't know.)

But still keeping to Belgium, Liege/Luik/Luttig gets more interesting.
I suspect the second and third names are variations of the first rather
than a translation.

Devil

On Fri, 05 Nov 2004 19:41:07 +0200, Henry wrote:


    > One simple example is the name for the capital of China. In Chinese, of
    > course, it has always been written using the same character(s). In
    > English, the sounds have in the past been transliterated as Peiping,
    > Peking and (the currently popular one) Beijing. English speakers
    > pronounce these words differently, yet all are attempts to capture the
    > sound(s) of the _one_ Chinese name. _That_ is transliteration.

I think Peiping was the name in Chinese too at that time?

As to Peking, isn't that a transliteration of the name as pronounced in
a minor Southern dialect called Cantonese?

B Vaughan

On Fri, 05 Nov 2004 23:39:07 GMT, devil <[email protected]> wrote:

    >On Fri, 05 Nov 2004 19:41:07 +0200, Henry wrote:
    >> One simple example is the name for the capital of China. In Chinese, of
    >> course, it has always been written using the same character(s). In
    >> English, the sounds have in the past been transliterated as Peiping,
    >> Peking and (the currently popular one) Beijing. English speakers
    >> pronounce these words differently, yet all are attempts to capture the
    >> sound(s) of the _one_ Chinese name. _That_ is transliteration.
    >I think Peiping was the name in Chinese too at that time?

I think it also means something different. Bei Jing means "northern
capital". (Nan Jing means "southern capital"). Maybe it was called
Peiping when it wasn't the capital.
    >As to Peking, isn't that a transliteration of the name as pronounced in
    >a minor Southern dialect called Cantonese?

I have heard that, but I have also heard lots of Mandarin speakers
call it Peking. Especially the university, which everybody seemed to
call Peking University when I was there.

Was the "minor" ironic?
--
Barbara Vaughan
My email address is my first initial followed by my surname at libero dot it
I answer travel questions only in the newsgroup

Henry

Miguel Cruz <[email protected]> wrote:

    > Henry <[email protected]> wrote:
    > > Miguel Cruz <[email protected]> wrote:
    > >> Frank F. Matthews <[email protected]> wrote:
    > >>> I agree & wonder just how one manages to translate a place name? What
    > >>> is the content that is to be translated. I'll grant that there are some
    > >>> "Nord Kappe" could be translated to "Cape North" but how do you
    > >>> translate something like Bergen?
    > >>
    > >> The proper word is probably transliterate - change he name into something
    > >> more palatable to the speakers of another language.
    > >
    > > Erm...not exactly. 'Transliterate' means to represent a word from one
    > > language in another language with a different orthographic system. This
    > > is (most usually) done by trying to render the phonology into the target
    > > language. However, it is highly problematic, since there is rarely a
    > > direct correspondence even of similar sounds.
    >
    > Far as I can tell, that's pretty much what I said. Different words, though.

Sorry, but it's not. Nordkapp to North Cape is translation, not
transliteration, because Norwegian and English are both written using a
similar western so-called Roman alphabet. The point is that
transliteration occurs only when you have two different writing systems.
Chinese to English; Arabic to English; Hindi to English, etc.--these are
transliterations.

cheers,

Henry

Devil

On Sat, 06 Nov 2004 10:14:18 +0100, B Vaughan wrote:

    > On Fri, 05 Nov 2004 23:39:07 GMT, devil <[email protected]> wrote:
    >
    >>On Fri, 05 Nov 2004 19:41:07 +0200, Henry wrote:
    >>> One simple example is the name for the capital of China. In Chinese, of
    >>> course, it has always been written using the same character(s). In
    >>> English, the sounds have in the past been transliterated as Peiping,
    >>> Peking and (the currently popular one) Beijing. English speakers
    >>> pronounce these words differently, yet all are attempts to capture the
    >>> sound(s) of the _one_ Chinese name. _That_ is transliteration.
    >>I think Peiping was the name in Chinese too at that time?
    >
    > I think it also means something different. Bei Jing means "northern
    > capital". (Nan Jing means "southern capital"). Maybe it was called
    > Peiping when it wasn't the capital.

I think that's right.

    >>As to Peking, isn't that a transliteration of the name as pronounced in
    >>a minor Southern dialect called Cantonese?
    >
    > I have heard that, but I have also heard lots of Mandarin speakers
    > call it Peking. Especially the university, which everybody seemed to
    > call Peking University when I was there.

That is indeed true. But in Mandarin it's definitely Bei(d)jing. (Most
English speakers who try pronouncing based upon English rules miss the d
sound.)

    > Was the "minor" ironic?

Yes. Relatively minor would have been more accurate. It's not one of the
bigger ones, but it's not one of the minor ones either.