Americans living in the U.K.
Aug 11th 2003, 2:04 pm
#46
Guest
Posts: n/a
Re: Americans living in the U.K.
Miguel Cruz wrote:
>
>
> My statement with respect to smoking them in London assumed that you'd pay
> for them.
But, whether or not you bought them (and smoked them) in London, who
would there be to enforce such a law? (I'm sure British law enforcement
has more important things to concern itself with than enforcing
senseless U.S. laws for our government.) FWIW, I HATE the smell of
cigar smoke, and avoid it like the plague, but it would never occur to
me to blow the whistle on a fellow countryman for his choice of brand!
>
>
> My statement with respect to smoking them in London assumed that you'd pay
> for them.
But, whether or not you bought them (and smoked them) in London, who
would there be to enforce such a law? (I'm sure British law enforcement
has more important things to concern itself with than enforcing
senseless U.S. laws for our government.) FWIW, I HATE the smell of
cigar smoke, and avoid it like the plague, but it would never occur to
me to blow the whistle on a fellow countryman for his choice of brand!
Aug 11th 2003, 6:08 pm
#47
Guest
Posts: n/a
Re: Americans living in the U.K.
Hatunen <[email protected]> wrote:
> [email protected] (Miguel Cruz) wrote:
>>> I'm asking again for a citation in the US Code or the Code of
>>> Federal Regulations.
>> From "What You Need To Know About The US Embargo", a pamphlet produced by
>> the US Department of the Treasury, available here:
>> http://www.ustreas.gov/offices/enfor...ns/t11cuba.pdf
>> "For instance, unless otherwise authorized, persons subject to U.S.
>> jurisdiction (including U.S. overseas subsidiaries) may not purchase
>> Cuban cigars in Mexico..."
>> Obviously you can smoke them if someone else buys them and gives them to
>> you without exchange of consideration, but that's the same story as
>> traveling there yourself.
>> My statement with respect to smoking them in London assumed that you'd pay
>> for them.
> Would it be churlish of me to point out that you said no such
> thing?
A bit, but be my guest. That's what I get for assuming that other people's
sense of "obvious" is the same as mine. Usually I try to be more careful.
miguel
--
Hit The Road! Photos and tales from around the world: http://travel.u.nu
> [email protected] (Miguel Cruz) wrote:
>>> I'm asking again for a citation in the US Code or the Code of
>>> Federal Regulations.
>> From "What You Need To Know About The US Embargo", a pamphlet produced by
>> the US Department of the Treasury, available here:
>> http://www.ustreas.gov/offices/enfor...ns/t11cuba.pdf
>> "For instance, unless otherwise authorized, persons subject to U.S.
>> jurisdiction (including U.S. overseas subsidiaries) may not purchase
>> Cuban cigars in Mexico..."
>> Obviously you can smoke them if someone else buys them and gives them to
>> you without exchange of consideration, but that's the same story as
>> traveling there yourself.
>> My statement with respect to smoking them in London assumed that you'd pay
>> for them.
> Would it be churlish of me to point out that you said no such
> thing?
A bit, but be my guest. That's what I get for assuming that other people's
sense of "obvious" is the same as mine. Usually I try to be more careful.
miguel
--
Hit The Road! Photos and tales from around the world: http://travel.u.nu
Aug 11th 2003, 6:15 pm
#48
Guest
Posts: n/a
Re: Americans living in the U.K.
I smoke at least one Cuban cigar a day and find such the justification
for such an embargo, both political and moral, completely ridiculous.
It would be more effective to ban US golfing attire worldwide. It does
however ease the cigar demand somewhat so I suppose it in theory
benefits the European consumer.
Dave
"John Stolz" <[email protected]> wrote in message news:<[email protected]>...
> EvelynVogtGamble(Divamanque) <[email protected]> wrote in message
> news:[email protected]...
>
> > Well, contrary to the apparent perceptions of some members of our
> > current government, U.S. laws run only so far as our borders.
>
> Not true - a US citizen can't buy a Cuban cigar and smoke it in London
> without breaking the law.
for such an embargo, both political and moral, completely ridiculous.
It would be more effective to ban US golfing attire worldwide. It does
however ease the cigar demand somewhat so I suppose it in theory
benefits the European consumer.
Dave
"John Stolz" <[email protected]> wrote in message news:<[email protected]>...
> EvelynVogtGamble(Divamanque) <[email protected]> wrote in message
> news:[email protected]...
>
> > Well, contrary to the apparent perceptions of some members of our
> > current government, U.S. laws run only so far as our borders.
>
> Not true - a US citizen can't buy a Cuban cigar and smoke it in London
> without breaking the law.
Aug 11th 2003, 6:19 pm
#49
Guest
Posts: n/a
Re: Americans living in the U.K.
Why, regardless of how busy they are, would UK law enforcement
agencies be interested in enforcing the petty laws of another country
inside their own borders ?
FWIW I LOVE the smell of cigar smoke :-)
Dave
"EvelynVogtGamble(Divamanque)" <[email protected]> wrote in message news:<[email protected]>...
> Miguel Cruz wrote:
> >
> >
> > My statement with respect to smoking them in London assumed that you'd pay
> > for them.
>
> But, whether or not you bought them (and smoked them) in London, who
> would there be to enforce such a law? (I'm sure British law enforcement
> has more important things to concern itself with than enforcing
> senseless U.S. laws for our government.) FWIW, I HATE the smell of
> cigar smoke, and avoid it like the plague, but it would never occur to
> me to blow the whistle on a fellow countryman for his choice of brand!
agencies be interested in enforcing the petty laws of another country
inside their own borders ?
FWIW I LOVE the smell of cigar smoke :-)
Dave
"EvelynVogtGamble(Divamanque)" <[email protected]> wrote in message news:<[email protected]>...
> Miguel Cruz wrote:
> >
> >
> > My statement with respect to smoking them in London assumed that you'd pay
> > for them.
>
> But, whether or not you bought them (and smoked them) in London, who
> would there be to enforce such a law? (I'm sure British law enforcement
> has more important things to concern itself with than enforcing
> senseless U.S. laws for our government.) FWIW, I HATE the smell of
> cigar smoke, and avoid it like the plague, but it would never occur to
> me to blow the whistle on a fellow countryman for his choice of brand!
Aug 11th 2003, 8:23 pm
#50
Guest
Posts: n/a
Re: Americans living in the U.K.
EvelynVogtGamble(Divamanque) <[email protected]> wrote:
> But, whether or not you bought them (and smoked them) in London, who
> would there be to enforce such a law? (I'm sure British law enforcement
> has more important things to concern itself with than enforcing
> senseless U.S. laws for our government.) FWIW, I HATE the smell of
> cigar smoke, and avoid it like the plague, but it would never occur to
> me to blow the whistle on a fellow countryman for his choice of brand!
UK police are rarely used to even enforce non-smoking laws in the UK. In
many public areas, and on some public transport, there's very little
that is usually done to someone smoking where they shouldn't. Despite
signs stating they could be fined, the worst that will happen is that
they might get ejected from the train or station, and then only usually
when they've been asked to put it out, but refused. On the tram on
Saturday night, there were several youths smoking and drinking when
staff came on to check tickets. They didn't have tickets either, and the
staff told them to put out the cigarette and get rid of the bottles, and
that they'd have to pay an on the spot fine for not having tickets. No
problem though, as one said to another, "we can just leave, there's
nothing they can do to keep us. Let's just go." So they did.
So, yes, I think it's pretty safe to say that US citizens, unless
they're on US property in the UK (and even _then_?) can quite safely
assume that no one will care, not that they would know anyway, that
they're 'breaking' such a risible law.
David
--
David Horne- www.davidhorne.co.uk
davidhorne (at) davidhorne (dot) co (dot) uk
> But, whether or not you bought them (and smoked them) in London, who
> would there be to enforce such a law? (I'm sure British law enforcement
> has more important things to concern itself with than enforcing
> senseless U.S. laws for our government.) FWIW, I HATE the smell of
> cigar smoke, and avoid it like the plague, but it would never occur to
> me to blow the whistle on a fellow countryman for his choice of brand!
UK police are rarely used to even enforce non-smoking laws in the UK. In
many public areas, and on some public transport, there's very little
that is usually done to someone smoking where they shouldn't. Despite
signs stating they could be fined, the worst that will happen is that
they might get ejected from the train or station, and then only usually
when they've been asked to put it out, but refused. On the tram on
Saturday night, there were several youths smoking and drinking when
staff came on to check tickets. They didn't have tickets either, and the
staff told them to put out the cigarette and get rid of the bottles, and
that they'd have to pay an on the spot fine for not having tickets. No
problem though, as one said to another, "we can just leave, there's
nothing they can do to keep us. Let's just go." So they did.
So, yes, I think it's pretty safe to say that US citizens, unless
they're on US property in the UK (and even _then_?) can quite safely
assume that no one will care, not that they would know anyway, that
they're 'breaking' such a risible law.
David
--
David Horne- www.davidhorne.co.uk
davidhorne (at) davidhorne (dot) co (dot) uk
Aug 12th 2003, 1:11 am
#51
Guest
Posts: n/a
Re: Americans living in the U.K.
"Miguel Cruz" wrote
| From "What You Need To Know About The US Embargo", a pamphlet produced by
| the US Department of the Treasury, available here:
| http://www.ustreas.gov/offices/enfor...ns/t11cuba.pdf
| "For instance, unless otherwise authorized, persons subject to U.S.
| jurisdiction (including U.S. overseas subsidiaries) may not purchase
| Cuban cigars in Mexico..."
But Britain is not, despite what some in Washington and Whitehall might
think, a US overseas subsidiary. While in the UK a person is not subject to
US jurisdiction. And the cigars wouldn't be purchased in or from Mexico,
they would presumably be purchased in the UK.
Owain
| From "What You Need To Know About The US Embargo", a pamphlet produced by
| the US Department of the Treasury, available here:
| http://www.ustreas.gov/offices/enfor...ns/t11cuba.pdf
| "For instance, unless otherwise authorized, persons subject to U.S.
| jurisdiction (including U.S. overseas subsidiaries) may not purchase
| Cuban cigars in Mexico..."
But Britain is not, despite what some in Washington and Whitehall might
think, a US overseas subsidiary. While in the UK a person is not subject to
US jurisdiction. And the cigars wouldn't be purchased in or from Mexico,
they would presumably be purchased in the UK.
Owain
Aug 12th 2003, 1:13 am
#52
Guest
Posts: n/a
Re: Americans living in the U.K.
EvelynVogtGamble(Divamanque) wrote
| Miguel Cruz wrote:
| But, whether or not you bought them (and smoked them) in London, who
| would there be to enforce such a law? (I'm sure British law enforcement
| has more important things to concern itself with than enforcing
| senseless U.S. laws for our government.)
British law enforcement would have no legal basis for doing any such thing.
Owain
| Miguel Cruz wrote:
| But, whether or not you bought them (and smoked them) in London, who
| would there be to enforce such a law? (I'm sure British law enforcement
| has more important things to concern itself with than enforcing
| senseless U.S. laws for our government.)
British law enforcement would have no legal basis for doing any such thing.
Owain
Aug 12th 2003, 3:40 am
#53
Guest
Posts: n/a
Re: Americans living in the U.K.
Miguel Cruz <[email protected]> wrote:
> This, of course, is a law that's almost impossible to enforce in such cases.
> Coming back from Cuba, they can catch you. Coming back from London with
> a few grams of Cuban cigar ash in your sweater, you're probably in the
> clear.
And, now that I've read through this insanely stupid law, I'm a little
stunned to see that US citizens and permanent residents (the
extraterratorial part of the law applies to them too!) that have legal
visas to visit Cuba _are_ allowed to bring back up to $100 of goods
(including cigars) for personal use...
David
--
David Horne- www.davidhorne.co.uk
davidhorne (at) davidhorne (dot) co (dot) uk
> This, of course, is a law that's almost impossible to enforce in such cases.
> Coming back from Cuba, they can catch you. Coming back from London with
> a few grams of Cuban cigar ash in your sweater, you're probably in the
> clear.
And, now that I've read through this insanely stupid law, I'm a little
stunned to see that US citizens and permanent residents (the
extraterratorial part of the law applies to them too!) that have legal
visas to visit Cuba _are_ allowed to bring back up to $100 of goods
(including cigars) for personal use...
David
--
David Horne- www.davidhorne.co.uk
davidhorne (at) davidhorne (dot) co (dot) uk
Aug 12th 2003, 3:47 am
#54
Guest
Posts: n/a
Re: Americans living in the U.K.
David wrote:
>
> Why, regardless of how busy they are, would UK law enforcement
> agencies be interested in enforcing the petty laws of another country
> inside their own borders ?
Exactly my point!
>
> FWIW I LOVE the smell of cigar smoke :-)
Chacun a son gout! (Sorry, when I insert diacritical marks with my
computer, they show up as gibberish on some screens.)
>
> Why, regardless of how busy they are, would UK law enforcement
> agencies be interested in enforcing the petty laws of another country
> inside their own borders ?
Exactly my point!
>
> FWIW I LOVE the smell of cigar smoke :-)
Chacun a son gout! (Sorry, when I insert diacritical marks with my
computer, they show up as gibberish on some screens.)
Aug 12th 2003, 4:41 am
#55
Guest
Posts: n/a
Re: Americans living in the U.K.
Owain <Use Postmaster to email me.> wrote:
>"Miguel Cruz" wrote
>> From "What You Need To Know About The US Embargo", a pamphlet produced by
>> the US Department of the Treasury, available here:
>> http://www.ustreas.gov/offices/enfor...ns/t11cuba.pdf
>> "For instance, unless otherwise authorized, persons subject to U.S.
>> jurisdiction (including U.S. overseas subsidiaries) may not purchase
>> Cuban cigars in Mexico..."
> But Britain is not, despite what some in Washington and Whitehall might
> think, a US overseas subsidiary. While in the UK a person is not subject to
> US jurisdiction.
They basically describe US citizens and US-based economic entities as being
subject to US jurisdiction anywhere and everywhere. This is how laws like
the Foreign Corrupt Practices Act (which forbids US people and companies
from bribing foreign officials overseas) work.
Nobody expects the bobbies to start hauling septics off to gaol for lighting
up in London. There is, however, a vaguely realistic possibility that
someone could be tried upon return to the US based on testimony, paper
trail, or photographic/video evidence of transactions committed overseas.
> And the cigars wouldn't be purchased in or from Mexico, they would
> presumably be purchased in the UK.
Mexico was clearly labeled as an example. You may freely substitute France
or Botswana or whatever else would make it easier to understand how the UK
could fit into that role.
miguel
--
Hit The Road! Photos and tales from around the world: http://travel.u.nu
>"Miguel Cruz" wrote
>> From "What You Need To Know About The US Embargo", a pamphlet produced by
>> the US Department of the Treasury, available here:
>> http://www.ustreas.gov/offices/enfor...ns/t11cuba.pdf
>> "For instance, unless otherwise authorized, persons subject to U.S.
>> jurisdiction (including U.S. overseas subsidiaries) may not purchase
>> Cuban cigars in Mexico..."
> But Britain is not, despite what some in Washington and Whitehall might
> think, a US overseas subsidiary. While in the UK a person is not subject to
> US jurisdiction.
They basically describe US citizens and US-based economic entities as being
subject to US jurisdiction anywhere and everywhere. This is how laws like
the Foreign Corrupt Practices Act (which forbids US people and companies
from bribing foreign officials overseas) work.
Nobody expects the bobbies to start hauling septics off to gaol for lighting
up in London. There is, however, a vaguely realistic possibility that
someone could be tried upon return to the US based on testimony, paper
trail, or photographic/video evidence of transactions committed overseas.
> And the cigars wouldn't be purchased in or from Mexico, they would
> presumably be purchased in the UK.
Mexico was clearly labeled as an example. You may freely substitute France
or Botswana or whatever else would make it easier to understand how the UK
could fit into that role.
miguel
--
Hit The Road! Photos and tales from around the world: http://travel.u.nu
Aug 13th 2003, 7:40 pm
#56
Guest
Posts: n/a
Re: Americans living in the U.K.
David wrote:
> Why, regardless of how busy they are, would UK law enforcement
> agencies be interested in enforcing the petty laws of another country
> inside their own borders ?
> FWIW I LOVE the smell of cigar smoke :-)
Cop friends of mine smoke cigars to cover up the smell of dead bodies that
they discover.....
--
Best
Greg in Chicago
> Why, regardless of how busy they are, would UK law enforcement
> agencies be interested in enforcing the petty laws of another country
> inside their own borders ?
> FWIW I LOVE the smell of cigar smoke :-)
Cop friends of mine smoke cigars to cover up the smell of dead bodies that
they discover.....
--
Best
Greg in Chicago
