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Johannesburg - is it unsafe .

Johannesburg - is it unsafe .

Old May 15th 2002, 3:20 pm
  #1  
Lindsay Brinkme
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Default Johannesburg - is it unsafe .

We have been told it is not safe to be on the streets even in daytime in
Johannesburg. Is this true & why. Thanks
 
Old May 15th 2002, 5:20 pm
  #2  
Brenda Patterso
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Default Re: Johannesburg - is it unsafe .

Downtown? Not much there of interest to a tourist. And do not be there after dark.
Suburbs are quite safe, though the obvious security may unsettle you - armed
response cars, fences around homes, etc. The bigger issue is: why spend time in
Johannesburg at all?
 
Old May 15th 2002, 6:21 pm
  #3  
Gard Karlsen
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Default Re: Johannesburg - is it unsafe .

Hi

Brenda Patterson has a point but I guess that you have reasons to be in Joburg. I
have been there on three occations and I have not run into much problem. I had an
incident with a man trying to run away with my VISA card but that's about it. Most of
the time I spent time in the Sandton area and we just drove in Joburd downtown. I
have posted some pictures and travelogues on my homepage. Feel free to visit the page
on http://donar.netpower.no/~ghk/

if you want an advice from me I would recommend going to Cape Town. It is a
beautifyl city

--
Regards Gard

"Lindsay Brinkmeyer" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
    > We have been told it is not safe to be on the streets even in daytime in
    > Johannesburg. Is this true & why. Thanks
 
Old May 16th 2002, 8:23 pm
  #4  
Karen
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Default Re: Johannesburg - is it unsafe .

There are so very many wonderful places to go and see in South Africa I can't imagine
anyone wanting to be in just another big, impersonal city where the crime rate is
higher than say Toronto Canada or Seattle Washington USA. There are a lot of very
poor people living or maybe it would be closer to the truth to say existing there and
property crime is higher. Cape Town is a great city with a higher safety factor.
Durban is on the coast and nice and warm this time of year with tons of things to do
and see. Nelspruit is not too far from Kruger National Park and a lovely spot to
visit with friendly folks. Cedarberg has a wonderful wildlife reserve and is
historically awesome
- there are over 125 San People wall paintings to see. I have got to agree with
everyone else. Why go there?
 
Old May 17th 2002, 3:20 am
  #5  
I Hope) (Marc L
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Posts: n/a
Default Re: Johannesburg - is it unsafe .

On Thu, 16 May 2002 02:43:02 GMT, Brenda Patterson <[email protected]> wrote:

    >Downtown? Not much there of interest to a tourist. And do not be there after dark.
    >Suburbs are quite safe, though the obvious security may unsettle you - armed
    >response cars, fences around homes, etc. The bigger issue is: why spend time in
    >Johannesburg at all?

BUSINESS. Not all travellers to Africa are comming here to visit parks or white water
river rafting.

Marc - Johannesburg, South Africa
 
Old May 17th 2002, 7:20 am
  #6  
jbk
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Posts: n/a
Default Re: Johannesburg - is it unsafe .

On Fri, 17 May 2002 14:15:13 GMT, [email protected] (I Hope).co.za
(Marc Lurie) wrote:

    >On Thu, 16 May 2002 02:43:02 GMT, Brenda Patterson <[email protected]> wrote:
    >
    >>Downtown? Not much there of interest to a tourist. And do not be there after dark.
    >>Suburbs are quite safe, though the obvious security may unsettle you - armed
    >>response cars, fences around homes, etc. The bigger issue is: why spend time in
    >>Johannesburg at all?
    >
    >BUSINESS. Not all travellers to Africa are comming here to visit parks or white
    >water river rafting.
    >
    >Marc - Johannesburg, South Africa
    >

On top of that, there are attradtions like the lion park, Pilanesburg, etc. in the
area, which is why I am heading there tonight. Besides, SAA hasn't started their
non-stop New York to Knysna flight yet. I think it's only seasonal and it's now the
low season.
 
Old May 17th 2002, 10:20 am
  #7  
Raffi Balmanouk
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Posts: n/a
Default Re: Johannesburg - is it unsafe .

in article [email protected], I HopeMarc Lurie at
[email protected] .co.za wrote on 5/17/02 11:15 AM:

    > On Thu, 16 May 2002 02:43:02 GMT, Brenda Patterson <[email protected]> wrote:
    >
    >> Downtown? Not much there of interest to a tourist. And do not be there after dark.
    >> Suburbs are quite safe, though the obvious security may unsettle you - armed
    >> response cars, fences around homes, etc. The bigger issue is: why spend time in
    >> Johannesburg at all?
    >
    > BUSINESS. Not all travellers to Africa are comming here to visit parks or white
    > water river rafting.
    >
    > Marc - Johannesburg, South Africa
    >

It can also be interesting in its own right, if you want to get a bit of a picture of
how some 10MM people (or around a quarter of South Africa) live. I likened it to
having a dull toothache...the safety factor is not constantly in your face but you
know it's there and is always on your mind. It was an invaluable few days of my own
very limited S.Afr. experience - not one I would go out of my way to repeat, but glad
I had that eye-opener.
 
Old May 20th 2002, 4:20 pm
  #8  
Editor
Guest
 
Posts: n/a
Default Re: Johannesburg - is it unsafe .

I've been to SA several times in the last three or so years, and have found after
dark wanderings very unsafe even in Sandton and Parktown, Hillbrow is a definitely a
No-No even during the day. othwewise it's great! Many historical places including
Soweto to visit. Best Hotels are in Sandton in my view. Don't forget to go to
Swaziland when there! Pics of Swaziland and more on www.newshhoundmedia.com Cheers
and happy travelling mike "Lindsay Brinkmeyer" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
    > We have been told it is not safe to be on the streets even in daytime in
    > Johannesburg. Is this true & why. Thanks
 
Old Aug 26th 2002, 9:03 pm
  #9  
Dries
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Posts: n/a
Default Re: Johannesburg - is it unsafe .

This is a multi-part message in MIME format. --------------710B4E39EE3E3920B557B7DD
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

Yes, it is true. The causes for the criminality in South Africa is complex. There
are however better places to be in South Africa than Johannesburg. Maybe you can
have a look at our site at http:/-
/www.cybertonature.co.za/sitemap.html
for safety tips and other options.

Lindsay Brinkmeyer wrote:
    > We have been told it is not safe to be on the streets even in daytime in
    > Johannesburg. Is this true & why. Thanks
--------------710B4E39EE3E3920B557B7DD Content-Type: text/x-vcard; charset=us-ascii;
name="info.vcf" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Description: Card for Dries
Content-Disposition: attachment; filename="info.vcf"

begin:vcard
n:Velthuizen;Dries tel;cell:+27826844359 tel;work:012 5673279 (after hours)
x-mozilla-html:FALSE url:http://www.cybertonature.co.za org:Cybertonature Travel
Services;General Manager version:2.1 email;internet:[email protected]
noteries Velthuizen is a strategic knowledge manager and part-time general
manager/owner of Cybertonature Travel Services CC
adr;quoted-printable:;;Wonderboom=0D=0APretoria=0D=0AGauteng= 0D=0ASouth
Africa;;;; end:vcard

--------------710B4E39EE3E3920B557B7DD--
 
Old Aug 27th 2002, 7:12 am
  #10  
Marc Lurie
Guest
 
Posts: n/a
Default Re: Johannesburg - is it unsafe .

Dries,

Do me a favour, and stop peddling your garbage on this newsgroup. People here want,
and need, responsible, solid advice and ask questions because they seek answers that
are truthful and knowlegable. Your recent postings do nothing useful to inform about
any aspect of rec.travel.africa, and I suggest you reserve most of them for other
outlets who appreciate blatant advertising.

Regards, Marc - Johhannesurg



On Tue, 27 Aug 2002 11:03:51 +0200, Dries <[email protected]> wrote:

    >This is a multi-part message in MIME format. --------------710B4E39EE3E3920B557B7DD
    >Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
    >Yes, it is true. The causes for the criminality in South Africa is complex. There
    >are however better places to be in South Africa than Johannesburg. Maybe you can
    >have a look at our site at http:-
    >//www.cybertonature.co.za/sitemap.html
     for safety tips and other options.
    >Lindsay Brinkmeyer wrote:
    >> We have been told it is not safe to be on the streets even in daytime in
    >> Johannesburg. Is this true & why. Thanks
    >--------------710B4E39EE3E3920B557B7DD Content-Type: text/x-vcard; charset=us-ascii;
    >name="info.vcf" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Description: Card for Dries
    >Content-Disposition: attachment; filename="info.vcf"
    >begin:vcard
    >n:Velthuizen;Dries tel;cell:+27826844359 tel;work:012 5673279 (after hours)
    > x-mozilla-html:FALSE url:http://www.cybertonature.co.za org:Cybertonature Travel
    > Services;General Manager version:2.1 email;internet:[email protected]
    > noteries Velthuizen is a strategic knowledge manager and part-time general
    > manager/owner of Cybertonature Travel Services CC
    > adr;quoted-printable:;;Wonderboom=0D=0APretoria=0D=0AGauteng= 0D=0ASouth Africa;;;;
    > end:vcard
    >--------------710B4E39EE3E3920B557B7DD--
 
Old Aug 27th 2002, 10:03 am
  #11  
Danie Palm
Guest
 
Posts: n/a
Default Re: Johannesburg - is it unsafe .

On Tue, 27 Aug 2002 19:12:19 GMT, [email protected] (Marc Lurie) wrote:

    >Dries,
    >Do me a favour, and stop peddling your garbage on this newsgroup. People here want,
    >and need, responsible, solid advice and ask questions because they seek answers that
    >are truthful and knowlegable. Your recent postings do nothing useful to inform about
    >any aspect of rec.travel.africa, and I suggest you reserve most of them for other
    >outlets who appreciate blatant advertising.
    >Regards, Marc - Johhannesurg

snip

Agreed.

Not so long ago someone in the UK (I can't remember the name) made a remark about
South Africans advertising here.

I replied (gently I hope) to the effect that we're not all like that - only to be
embarrased time and time again since then by blatant advertising in this (and another
travel-related) newsgroup by, yes you guessed it - our fellow South Africans. Quite a
few in fact.

Perhaps they don't realise that this isn't a free classified column but a newsgroup.
These "advertising executives" should read up on the internet about something called
netiquette (pardon my spelling if that's wrong) and stop embarrasing South Africa.

My apologies as an South African to others on this ng, and at the risk of being
embarrased yet again, we aren't all like that.

A few of us South Africans have in fact been been making genuine contributions here
and will continue to do so.

Anyway Marc, you're probably English-speaking but knowing the attitudes sometimes
involved (I've been flamed for being honest in some other newsgroups long ago so I
know) I can only say HKGK in Afrikaans.

Perhaps you'll know what it stands for :>)) More or less to do with bad-smelling
stuff and a fan.

To Lindsay who asked:

"We have been told it is not safe to be on the streets even in daytime in
Johannesburg. Is this true & why. Thanks"

I'd like to say that although crime in South Africa is higher than in some
other countries, what she's enquiring about is rather an overstatement by
whoever told her so.

Yes, you might get mugged. In Johannesburg. Or Cape Town. Or New York where the word
"mugged" is quite familiar I believe. Or London. Or Berlin. Or Tokyo. Or wherever.
Except perhaps Antarctica.

Dries from Wonderboom (the guy Marc is chastising) did say one thing I must agree
with - the causes are indeed complex. About the "places better than Johannesburg"
remark I'd like to disagree.

Joburg, just like Pretoria where Dries from Wonderboom stays, has a large number of
museums to use just one type of tourism attraction as an example.

The Joburg Zoo, just like the one in Pretoria, is a haven of tranquility in the midst
of a busy and bustling city. The stock exchange in Diagonal Street Johannesburg has a
visitors gallery and I doubt if the stockbrokers feel unsafe in the streets.

Even Soweto near Johannesburg is popular amongst overseas tourists for places like
the Hector Pieterson museum and other places involved in the struggle against
apartheid. And Soweto is one place you'd rather not go on your own because there a)
crime is in fact high and b) you'll get horribly lost in the maze of shanties. Use a
tour operator familiar with the area.

Joburg is also the city through which the most visitors enter South Africa. Pity we
can't conduct a poll at the airport as they go back, I'd like to know their comments!

BTW in case anybody's wondering, "Wonderboom" mentioned above ("Tree of Wonder" very
roughly translated) is a suburb in Pretoria named after a huge "ficus pretoriae" wild
fig tree found there. Actually a "serial" tree for lack of a better word. Where the
branches are bent down from their weight they touch the ground and spread more roots.

My apologies for a very long post.

Putting on my flame-resistant clothing as I say cheers for now.

Danie Palm - South Africa Disability is not inability but a challenge
 
Old Aug 27th 2002, 10:37 am
  #12  
Danie Palm
Guest
 
Posts: n/a
Default Re: Johannesburg - is it unsafe .

On Wed, 28 Aug 2002 00:03:33 +0200, Danie Palm <[email protected]> wrote:

    >On Tue, 27 Aug 2002 19:12:19 GMT, [email protected] (Marc Lurie) wrote:
    >>Dries,
    >>Do me a favour, and stop peddling your garbage on this newsgroup. People here want,
    >>and need, responsible, solid advice and ask questions because they seek answers
    >>that are truthful and knowlegable. Your recent postings do nothing useful to inform
    >>about any aspect of rec.travel.africa, and I suggest you reserve most of them for
    >>other outlets who appreciate blatant advertising.
    >>Regards, Marc - Johhannesurg
    >snip
    >Agreed.
    >Not so long ago someone in the UK (I can't remember the name) made a remark about
    >South Africans advertising here.
    >I replied (gently I hope) to the effect that we're not all like that - only to be
    >embarrased time and time again since then by blatant advertising in this (and
    >another travel-related) newsgroup by, yes you guessed it - our fellow South
    >Africans. Quite a few in fact.

snip
    >Putting on my flame-resistant clothing as I say cheers for now.
    >Danie Palm - South Africa Disability is not inability but a challenge

BTW Dries and some of the others advertising on this ng, here's something I forgot to
mention in my previous post:

As far as I know this is NOT a binary newsgroup. Meaning that as far as I understand
only newsgroups with the word "binary" or something similar in the ng name are
intended to have messages with attachments posted to them.

My newsreader is set to automatically retrieve all posts to this ng and this means I
automatically get *unwanted* attachments. As a result this thread has dumped copies
of your info.vcf attachment on my harddrive and I don't like stuff being forced on me
in a non-binary newsgroup.

In addition similar posts on za.travel has done the same.

Depending on their newsreader settings many people might not even realise that
they're getting unsolicited (albeit harmless) files transferred to their PC's if they
read your posts.

Depending on the reactions to my posts on this thread I'll either have to select
messages individually for retrieval or set a filter to exclude certain posts. Either
way it's an unneccesary step being forced on me which I and other netsavvy ng readers
will find irritating.

Danie Palm - South Africa Disability is not inability but a challenge
 
Old Aug 27th 2002, 11:13 pm
  #13  
Marc Lurie
Guest
 
Posts: n/a
Default Re: Johannesburg - is it unsafe .

OK, perhaps the word "Garbage" is a bit loaded and unnecesary, I was just reacting to
the many postings made by Dries which were unashamed attempts at advertising.

What is definitely "garbage" is the asertion by Dries that Johannesburg is not safe,
even during the day. Sure, it's not the safest city in the world, but it's certainly
safe enough to visit or to live in.

Marc - Johannesburg.


On Tue, 27 Aug 2002 19:12:19 GMT, [email protected] (Marc Lurie) wrote:

    >Dries,
    >Do me a favour, and stop peddling your garbage on this newsgroup. People here want,
    >and need, responsible, solid advice and ask questions because they seek answers that
    >are truthful and knowlegable. Your recent postings do nothing useful to inform about
    >any aspect of rec.travel.africa, and I suggest you reserve most of them for other
    >outlets who appreciate blatant advertising.
    >Regards, Marc - Johhannesurg
    >On Tue, 27 Aug 2002 11:03:51 +0200, Dries <[email protected]> wrote:
    >>This is a multi-part message in MIME format. --------------710B4E39EE3E3920B557B7DD
    >>Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
    >>Yes, it is true. The causes for the criminality in South Africa is complex. There
    >>are however better places to be in South Africa than Johannesburg. Maybe you can
    >>have a look at our site at http-
    >>://www.cybertonature.co.za/sitemap.html
     for safety tips and other options.
    >>Lindsay Brinkmeyer wrote:
    >>> We have been told it is not safe to be on the streets even in daytime in
    >>> Johannesburg. Is this true & why. Thanks
    >>--------------710B4E39EE3E3920B557B7DD Content-Type: text/x-vcard;
    >>charset=us-ascii; name="info.vcf" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
    >>Content-Description: Card for Dries Content-Disposition: attachment;
    >>filename="info.vcf"
    >>begin:vcard
    >>n:Velthuizen;Dries tel;cell:+27826844359 tel;work:012 5673279 (after hours)
    >> x-mozilla-html:FALSE url:http://www.cybertonature.co.za org:Cybertonature Travel
    >> Services;General Manager version:2.1 email;internet:[email protected]
    >> noteries Velthuizen is a strategic knowledge manager and part-time general
    >> manager/owner of Cybertonature Travel Services CC
    >> adr;quoted-printable:;;Wonderboom=0D=0APretoria=0D=0AGauteng= 0D=0ASouth
    >> Africa;;;; end:vcard
    >>--------------710B4E39EE3E3920B557B7DD--
 
Old Aug 27th 2002, 11:22 pm
  #14  
Marc Lurie
Guest
 
Posts: n/a
Default Re: Johannesburg - is it unsafe .

Danie,

I'm well aware of what HKGK means :-)

I checked out Dries' website, and I see that his wife has 18 years of military
experience. Without pre-judging the Velthuizens, but having spent two years as an
involuntary guest of the South African Defence Force, I think I understand where they
come from, in a socio-political sense.

Comments about Johannesburg being unsafe at all times, and suggestions to avoid it at
all costs should be taken from whence they come.

Asbestos flame-proof clothing has been ordered... :-)

Marc - Johannesburg


    >Anyway Marc, you're probably English-speaking but knowing the attitudes sometimes
    >involved (I've been flamed for being honest in some other newsgroups long ago so I
    >know) I can only say HKGK in Afrikaans.
 
Old Aug 28th 2002, 4:06 am
  #15  
Liz
Guest
 
Posts: n/a
Default Re: Johannesburg - is it unsafe .

In message <[email protected]> Danie Palm
<[email protected]> wrote:

    > BTW Dries and some of the others advertising on this ng, here's something I forgot
    > to mention in my previous post:
    > As far as I know this is NOT a binary newsgroup. Meaning that as far as I
    > understand only newsgroups with the word "binary" or something similar in the ng
    > name are intended to have messages with attachments posted to them.
Despite the fact that Dries has been spamming the group for years, he hasn't learned
how to send an email without heaps of 'garbage' coming through, or how to send one
without attachments.

I have him killfiled.
    :-)

Liz

--
Virtual Liz at http://www.v-liz.co.uk Safaris
(Kenya and Tanzania); NEW: Kenya 2002 'rushes' now up "I speak of Africa and
golden joys"
 

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