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?How about 30 days in South Africa starting next month?

?How about 30 days in South Africa starting next month?

Old Feb 3rd 2007, 8:02 pm
  #16  
Corn
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Default Re: ?How about 30 days in South Africa starting next month?

"Marc Lurie" <[email protected]> schreef in bericht
news:[email protected]...
> Corne, are you suggesting that this person should attempt to bribe a
> police officer if they get caught speeding?
>

Marc, consider this: My parents and several guests were fined R700 for
speeding up to 9 km too fast. Normal ticket for this is R200 officially. In
that case it can be useful to know what's going on.

Worked for me a couple a weeks ago, but in that case the police officers
themselves told me if I paid R50 cash (...) I didn't have to go to the
Magistrate court.... Now Marc, what do you suggest to do if a polic officer
tells you this?

I am not telling that this person should attemt to bribe a police officer,
just sharing my experiences.

Keep well.

Regards from the sunny bush,

Corné.

www.amukela.com
 
Old Feb 4th 2007, 2:44 am
  #17  
Guest
 
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Default Re: ?How about 30 days in South Africa starting next month?

On Feb 4, 4:02 am, "Corn�" <[email protected]> wrote:
> "Marc Lurie" <[email protected]> schreef in berichtnews:dh56s2h5lfurpmbn6ufedsjbe6d2eud5kk@4ax .com...
>
> > Corne, are you suggesting that this person should attempt to bribe a
> > police officer if they get caught speeding?
>
> Marc, consider this: My parents and several guests were fined R700 for
> speeding up to 9 km too fast. Normal ticket for this is R200 officially. In
> that case it can be useful to know what's going on.
>
> Worked for me a couple a weeks ago, but in that case the police officers
> themselves told me if I paid R50 cash (...) I didn't have to go to the
> Magistrate court.... Now Marc, what do you suggest to do if a polic officer
> tells you this?
>
> I am not telling that this person should attemt to bribe a police officer,
> just sharing my experiences.
>
> Keep well.
>
> Regards from the sunny bush,
>
> Corn�.
>
> www.amukela.com

Thanks for the advice. I have unpaid (slightly speeding) tickets from
New Zealand, Mexico and a counrty in eastern europe.

Doug Clark
 
Old Feb 7th 2007, 12:47 am
  #18  
Marc Lurie
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Posts: n/a
Default Re: ?How about 30 days in South Africa starting next month?

On Sun, 4 Feb 2007 11:02:59 +0200, "Corn�" <[email protected]> wrote:

>
>"Marc Lurie" <[email protected]> schreef in bericht
>news:[email protected].. .
>> Corne, are you suggesting that this person should attempt to bribe a
>> police officer if they get caught speeding?
>>
>
>Marc, consider this: My parents and several guests were fined R700 for
>speeding up to 9 km too fast. Normal ticket for this is R200 officially. In
>that case it can be useful to know what's going on.
Yes, it's always a good idea to know something about the law. I'm
concerned about what you've just said however. Were they given an
official fine for R700, or did the cop simply tel them that the fine
was R700?
>
>Worked for me a couple a weeks ago, but in that case the police officers
>themselves told me if I paid R50 cash (...) I didn't have to go to the
>Magistrate court.... Now Marc, what do you suggest to do if a polic officer
>tells you this?
I SUGGEST that you tell the officer to rephrase his comment, and make
absolutely dure that what he said couldn't possibly be construed as
asking for a bribe. I SUGGEST that if the officer again asks for a
bribe that you refuse, and take his name and details and report him. I
SUGGEST that you don't offer him a bribe.

I SUGGEST that your public disclosure that you paid a bribe to a
traffic officer is nothing short of repugnant.

I SUGGEST that publicly admitting that you committed a criminal
offence (and showing a disgusting smugness about it to boot) is
EXACTLY what this country doesn't need

YOU broke the law by speeding. YOU should pay the penalty, and not
contribute to criminal lawlessness by paying bribes. The next time you
moan about police ineffectiveness, high crime levels, etc. remember
that YOU have nothing to complain about because YOU are part of it.

I SUGGEST that you should hang your head in shame.
>
>I am not telling that this person should attemt to bribe a police officer,
>just sharing my experiences.
>
>Keep well.
>
>Regards from the sunny bush,
>
>Corn�.
>
>www.amukela.com
>
>
 
Old Feb 7th 2007, 2:27 am
  #19  
Guest
 
Posts: n/a
Default Re: ?How about 30 days in South Africa starting next month?

On Feb 3, 2:53 pm, "Marc Lurie"
<[email protected]> wrote:
> Craighall Park and Grayston Drive are both in good areas. The Grayston Drive
> address is closer to the Nelson Mandela Square, and therefore closer to
> restaurants, shopping etc. however, if you have a hired car, either address
> will suit you. Craighall Park is likely to be quieter and probaly a bit
> older and quainter (although nothing is really old - Johannesburg was only
> founded in 1886). Craighall is one of the older suburbs, and is
> traditionally an up-market, old-money area.
>
> Marc
>
> <[email protected]> wrote in message
>
> news:[email protected] ups.com...
>
>
>
> > Any opinions on:
>
> > 31 day Thrifty auto rental
>
> > Hyundai Getz manual, AC, Unlimited Mileage
>
> > ZAR 4,646 with no insurance as I will cover it with my AMEX Gold Card
>
> > ///////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////�///////////
>
> > Apartments:
>
> > Westpoint on Grayton in Sandton for ZAR 4,500 for 7 nights
>
> > Waterfall Cottages on Craighall in Sandton for ZAR 3,094 for 7 nights- Hide quoted text -
>
> - Show quoted text -

We ended up at a place called:

Blue point home stay - Kilcullen Estate Apartments

It is on the south edge of Sandton and the cost for 2bed 2 Bath is
R3,950 plus R299 "lease" fee for a week stay.

Thanks for all of the advice.

Our trip is at: beulavillenc-travel.blogspot.com

Doug Clark
 
Old Feb 7th 2007, 4:33 am
  #20  
Pecan
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Posts: n/a
Default Re: ?How about 30 days in South Africa starting next month?

Marc Lurie wrote:
<snip>
>> Magistrate court.... Now Marc, what do you suggest to do if a polic officer
>> tells you this?

> I SUGGEST that you tell the officer to rephrase his comment, and make
> absolutely dure that what he said couldn't possibly be construed as
> asking for a bribe. I SUGGEST that if the officer again asks for a
> bribe that you refuse, and take his name and details and report him. I
> SUGGEST that you don't offer him a bribe.
>
> I SUGGEST that your public disclosure that you paid a bribe to a
> traffic officer is nothing short of repugnant.
>
> I SUGGEST that publicly admitting that you committed a criminal
> offence (and showing a disgusting smugness about it to boot) is
> EXACTLY what this country doesn't need
>
> YOU broke the law by speeding. YOU should pay the penalty, and not
> contribute to criminal lawlessness by paying bribes. The next time you
> moan about police ineffectiveness, high crime levels, etc. remember
> that YOU have nothing to complain about because YOU are part of it.
>
> I SUGGEST that you should hang your head in shame.
>> I am not telling that this person should attemt to bribe a police officer,
>> just sharing my experiences.
>>
>> Keep well.
>>
>> Regards from the sunny bush,
>>
>> Corn�.
>>
>> www.amukela.com
>>
>>

I have to agree with Marc.
I don't believe paying bribes is in any way helpful to the welfare of
our country.

Catherine
--
== Not nuts, just a little eccentric ==
http://www.africanbush.co.za
African Bush Tours and Safaris
 
Old Feb 7th 2007, 10:14 pm
  #21  
Marc Lurie
Guest
 
Posts: n/a
Default Re: ?How about 30 days in South Africa starting next month?

On Wed, 07 Feb 2007 19:33:51 +0200, pecan <[email protected]>
wrote:
>I have to agree with Marc.
>I don't believe paying bribes is in any way helpful to the welfare of
>our country.
>
>Catherine

Thanks Catherine,

I apologise for hijacking this thread, but I get SOOOO frikkin' angry
when I hear people boasting about how they bribed a cop after they
were caught speeding/drink-driving etc.

What kind of people think it's OK to complain about rampant crime, but
then boast about breaking the law? I've heard people at parties and
braais talking openly about how the bribed someone, or diddled the
taxman, or ripped off their insurance company, and they do it without
shame, and without any recrimminations from the people they're telling
the stories to.

I have warned people from time to time that I am unimpressed about
their boasts of bribery, and for some reason, I'm the one who gets
ridiculed. We need to change this attitude if we are ever to address
crime properly.

What would a normal, civic-minded person do if a paedophile or a
rapist boasted about his exploits around the braai? What about
burglars, hijackers, con-artists, illegal goods fences,
counterfeiters?

Cheers,
Marc
 
Old Feb 8th 2007, 12:03 am
  #22  
Wildpicture
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Default Re: ?How about 30 days in South Africa starting next month?

Marc Lurie schreef:
> What kind of people think it's OK to complain about rampant crime, but
> then boast about breaking the law?

Marc, very true and I do agree with you.

But what people in Souh Africa really need at this moment is to have the
present leaders behave as examples, as role models. Do you think
ordinary people will change their attitudes when they see their leaders
only taking care of theirselves?

Regards,
Hans
 
Old Feb 8th 2007, 4:50 am
  #23  
Pecan
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Posts: n/a
Default Re: ?How about 30 days in South Africa starting next month?

Wildpicture wrote:
> Marc Lurie schreef:
>> What kind of people think it's OK to complain about rampant crime, but
>> then boast about breaking the law?
>
> Marc, very true and I do agree with you.
>
> But what people in Souh Africa really need at this moment is to have the
> present leaders behave as examples, as role models. Do you think
> ordinary people will change their attitudes when they see their leaders
> only taking care of theirselves?
>
> Regards,
> Hans

I think that honesty, like charity, should begin at home.
As my mother used to say: two wrongs don't make a right.

Catherine

--
== Not nuts, just a little eccentric =http://www.africanbush.co.za
African Bush Tours and Safaris
 
Old Feb 8th 2007, 4:55 am
  #24  
Pecan
Guest
 
Posts: n/a
Default Re: ?How about 30 days in South Africa starting next month?

Marc Lurie wrote:
> On Wed, 07 Feb 2007 19:33:51 +0200, pecan <[email protected]>
> wrote:
>> I have to agree with Marc.
>> I don't believe paying bribes is in any way helpful to the welfare of
>> our country.
>>
>> Catherine
>
> Thanks Catherine,
>
> I apologise for hijacking this thread, but I get SOOOO frikkin' angry
> when I hear people boasting about how they bribed a cop after they
> were caught speeding/drink-driving etc.
>
> What kind of people think it's OK to complain about rampant crime, but
> then boast about breaking the law? I've heard people at parties and
> braais talking openly about how the bribed someone, or diddled the
> taxman, or ripped off their insurance company, and they do it without
> shame, and without any recrimminations from the people they're telling
> the stories to.
>
> I have warned people from time to time that I am unimpressed about
> their boasts of bribery, and for some reason, I'm the one who gets
> ridiculed. We need to change this attitude if we are ever to address
> crime properly.
>
> What would a normal, civic-minded person do if a paedophile or a
> rapist boasted about his exploits around the braai? What about
> burglars, hijackers, con-artists, illegal goods fences,
> counterfeiters?
>
> Cheers,
> Marc

On a similar note, my pet peeve is people who say that if a woman/girl
wears a short skirt, or walks around at night "deserves to be raped".
This takes the onus of self-control away from the rapist (or potential
rapist) and makes it okay to rape "under certain circumstances".

I know that the fact is that it is more likely to occur, but that
doesn't make it right.

Catherine

--
== Not nuts, just a little eccentric =http://www.africanbush.co.za
African Bush Tours and Safaris
 
Old Feb 9th 2007, 10:50 pm
  #25  
Corn
Guest
 
Posts: n/a
Default Re: ?How about 30 days in South Africa starting next month?

> Yes, it's always a good idea to know something about the law. I'm
> concerned about what you've just said however. Were they given an
> official fine for R700, or did the cop simply tel them that the fine
> was R700?

No official fine, R700! My mother said they didn't have that amount of
money, then the police officer said how much do you have? R400! That's ok
then. Remember this was the 1st time my parents were fined in SA. Beeing
dutch they didn't know what to expect. Maybe it wasn't even a real
policmen....


> I SUGGEST that you tell the officer to rephrase his comment, and make
> absolutely dure that what he said couldn't possibly be construed as
> asking for a bribe. I SUGGEST that if the officer again asks for a
> bribe that you refuse, and take his name and details and report him. I
> SUGGEST that you don't offer him a bribe.


At the end it is his word (and that of his fellow policemen) against my
word. We are in a township, he's the black man armed with guns, and I am a
white guy, unarmed... If I would be convinced that by following your
suggestions traffic would become safer...sure!


>
> I SUGGEST that your public disclosure that you paid a bribe to a
> traffic officer is nothing short of repugnant.

The Naked Truth: I think more then 80% of the readers of this NG would find
my disclosures useful. What they want to do with it, is everybody's own
responsibillity.


> I SUGGEST that publicly admitting that you committed a criminal
> offence (and showing a disgusting smugness about it to boot) is
> EXACTLY what this country doesn't need

Appartheid and white supremacy is what this country doesn't need, training
police in the fight against organised crime (not speeding 9 km) might be
another suggestion? Post your suggestions to the South African Police
Department, in your 'fight' against corruption...


>
> YOU broke the law by speeding. YOU should pay the penalty, and not
> contribute to criminal lawlessness by paying bribes. The next time you
> moan about police ineffectiveness, high crime levels, etc. remember
> that YOU have nothing to complain about because YOU are part of it.


Actually... I am not sure if I broke the law. 7-10 km speeding is
discussable in a court of law, because of difference is speedmeters. But to
safe time and efforts you could discuss the fine with the policemen.
Furthermore: I dind't bribe anyone, I paid a fine. And they are negiotable
in SA, also when you pay directly at the Magistrate Court. The policemen
told me what the fine was, and I paid... for my crime
Rape, murder, molest etc. is not comparable with 9 km speeding on a road
where there was hardly any traffic.


> I SUGGEST that you should hang your head in shame.

I SUGGEST that you get a life. What I experienced happens every day
somewhere in SA, don't blaim the messenger. In Holland I would never try to
bribe a policemen, but this is Africa (as you should know) and not a colony
of England anymore (thank God for that!).

However, thanks for your input, always nice to hear a different point of
view.

Regards from the sunny bush

Corné.

www.amukela.com



> >
> >I am not telling that this person should attemt to bribe a police
officer,
> >just sharing my experiences.
> >
> >Keep well.
> >
> >Regards from the sunny bush,
> >
> >Corné.
> >
> > www.amukela.com
> >
> >
 
Old Feb 10th 2007, 1:19 am
  #26  
Corn
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Posts: n/a
Default Re: ?How about 30 days in South Africa starting next month?

>
> On a similar note, my pet peeve is people who say that if a woman/girl
> wears a short skirt, or walks around at night "deserves to be raped".
> This takes the onus of self-control away from the rapist (or potential
> rapist) and makes it okay to rape "under certain circumstances".
>
> I know that the fact is that it is more likely to occur, but that
> doesn't make it right.
>
> Catherine
>

Hey Catherine,

1 in 5 SA women will be raped some day, that is the sad reality. There is
something structural wrong in this country. Easy to blame it on poverty, but
I believe it is a combination of factors. Main reason is that 'they' can get
away with it. In some cultures women are submissive to men, and that has
been abused many times.

Keep well.. and excentric

Corné.

www.amukela.com
 
Old Feb 10th 2007, 9:50 pm
  #27  
Marc Lurie
Guest
 
Posts: n/a
Default Re: ?How about 30 days in South Africa starting next month?

I must start this post by once again apologising for hijacking of the
thread. However this is a very important issue and I feel a very pressing
need to discuss it publicly.



Corne,



I don't buy any of your arguments, and I am disappointed in your racist and
patronising attitude.



I'll address the racism issue first. In one breath you say that white
supremacy and apartheid are evil, and then in the next breath you call
people "they" and you make comments about being white and the cop being
black with a gun. You say that you wouldn't pay a bribe in Holland, "but
this is Africa", as if that explains why bribes are a norm. South Africa is
(obviously) geographically in Africa, but there is no reason why we have to
develop the same levels of kleptocracy or corruption as some other African
countries. I suspect that your feeling is that corruption is inevitable, and
if your argument is that corruption and poor management is inevitable,
because "this is Africa", then the only possible conclusion to make is that
you think that Africans are inherently lawless, corrupt, and inefficient
people. That, I'm afraid, is racism. The commonly used argument that
Zimbabwe, Nigeria, Congo, Angola, Sierra Leone, Liberia etc. all have black
governments and "look at how screwed up those countries are" has, at it's
core, a presumption that somehow black people from those very different
countries are all the same because they are black. The ONLY similarity
between a Yoruba from Nigeria and a Shona from Zimbabwe is the colour of
their skin, and to ascribe the corruption in both countries to the people
having similar traits is pure and simple disgusting racism. By the same
token, to ascribe the prosperity of Holland and Finland (chosen because they
are roughly the same distance apart as Zimbabwe and Nigeria, and because the
Dutch and Finns are about as different from each other as the Yoruba and
Shona) on the fact that they are white is also racism.



Now, back to the issue of bribery:

The speed limit is 120kph - FACT

You were trapped doing 129kph - FACT

Virtually all speedometers over-read by around 5-8% (I once read that this
was done intentionally by manufacturers)

That means that your speedometer was reading between 135 and 140kph - FACT

Now you complain that you got caught BREAKING the law, while YOU KNOW that
you thought that you were actually going FASTER than you really were. That's
like complaining that you got bust for stealing sweets when you actually
robbed a bank.

You broke the law. Plain and simple. And then you broke the law again by
paying a bribe. Plain and simple!



Regarding your mothers R700 fine: One simple question is all I need ask
here: Were they given a receipt for the money they paid? If they didn't
receive a receipt, then only a completely naive person wouldn't know that
they'd just paid a bribe.



Regarding your word against the cop's word: I have been in that situation
many times, not usually for speeding, but for other little things like
forgetting to carry my license, or having an obscured number plate etc. I
have had cops asking for bribes (yes, black cops with guns) and I have NEVER
paid a bribe in this country. (AND I NEVER WILL). I've never been shot or
beaten up for refusing to pay a bribe. I was harassed once on a lonely
stretch of road in the Wild Coast by two policemen who stopped me and found
that a taillight wasn't working. They tried to intimidate me (yes, it was
two black cops with guns, and I was a lone white guy without a gun), but I
refused to pay the bribe and INSISTED on the fine. What are they going to
do: Shoot you because you insist on the fine? Get real. You paid the bribe
because the guy asked for it, and it was less than the value of the fine,
not purely because he was a black guy with a gun. In South Africa moving
traffic violations are considered to be CRIMINAL acts. Bribery is also a
CRIMINAL act. While you're correct that you can't equate the severity of
speeding with rape or murder, you cannot excuse any offence either. Is it OK
then to excuse someone who robbed a bank and only escaped with R10, but jail
someone else who managed to steal R1,000,000? Of course not.



In fact, bribery of a policeman is a Schedule One Offence (Defeating or
obstructing the course of justice) in terms of the law of the country. The
fact that it may happen on a wide scale is immaterial. Murder is also a
Schedule One Offence, it is also widespread, but that doesn't mean that you
can just go out and murder someone.



I still maintain that your smug public disclosure that you bribed a
policeman is a disgusting indictment of YOUR character. You wouldn't pay a
bribe in your home country, but you're happy to come to mine and pervert my
justice system, promote graft and corruption in my police force simply
because it's cheaper than paying the fine, and because "this is Africa".
Man, that IS arrogant!
 
Old Feb 10th 2007, 9:59 pm
  #28  
Marc Lurie
Guest
 
Posts: n/a
Default Re: ?How about 30 days in South Africa starting next month?

Hans,

You're quite correct. I am also distressed that there seems to be a lack of
government willingness to tackle certain issues, and a lack of comprehension
about the importance of solving certain problems. I am particularly
disturbed by the culture of "entitlement" that has become far more aggresive
than in the past, and I am very concerned that convicted CRIMINALS like Tony
Yengeni and Shabir Sheik (and not-yet convicted criminals like Jacob Zuma)
are being treated as virtual heroes or matyrs.

However, none of that excuses, for one second, that Corne paid a bribe to a
policeman and that is illegal, wrong, and reprehensible.


"Wildpicture" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> Marc Lurie schreef:
>> What kind of people think it's OK to complain about rampant crime, but
>> then boast about breaking the law?
>
> Marc, very true and I do agree with you.
>
> But what people in Souh Africa really need at this moment is to have the
> present leaders behave as examples, as role models. Do you think ordinary
> people will change their attitudes when they see their leaders only taking
> care of theirselves?
>
> Regards,
> Hans
 
Old Feb 10th 2007, 10:27 pm
  #29  
Corn
Guest
 
Posts: n/a
Default Re: ?How about 30 days in South Africa starting next month?

>
> I don't buy any of your arguments, and I am disappointed in your racist
and
> patronising attitude.

Too bad I don't have your adress, would immediately let my attorney sue you.
Patronising is your nickame, isn't?

Anyway, I am not going to spend more time in reading your moral, patronising
and most of all deformation of character posts.

PLOINK!
 
Old Feb 10th 2007, 11:12 pm
  #30  
Guest
 
Posts: n/a
Default Re: ?How about 30 days in South Africa starting next month?

On Feb 11, 1:27 pm, "Corn�" <[email protected]> wrote:
> > I don't buy any of your arguments, and I am disappointed in your racist
> and
> > patronising attitude.
>
> Too bad I don't have your adress, would immediately let my attorney sue you.
> Patronising is your nickame, isn't?
>
> Anyway, I am not going to spend more time in reading your moral, patronising
> and most of all deformation of character posts.
>
> PLOINK!


Marc, I have to say I'm disappointed at the overwhelming silence from
the NG on this. Not only are you right on this matter, but I applaud
you for making the point, and for taking the time to defend the point.

By way of reference, this isn't the first time Corn� has lost the plot
in this NG.

Kurt
 

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