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T1 apartment sold as three-bed

T1 apartment sold as three-bed

Old Jun 30th 2021, 10:10 am
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Default T1 apartment sold as three-bed

Hello everyone. I’m in the process of buying a three-bedroom apartment in Lagos that I’ve just learned is officially classified as a T1. I’m told that the developers called one bedroom an office and another a winter garden in order to keep the number of inhabitants in line with the allotment licence. I like the apartment and can live with the quirk in the planning process (if that’s what it is) as long as it doesn’t come back to bite me later. I’d be grateful to hear if anyone has any experience or knowledge of this practice. Thanks, Mike
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Old Jun 30th 2021, 11:55 am
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Default Re: T1 apartment sold as three-bed

If someone, anyone, in this process is saying to you stuff, the gist of which is ' don't bother what it says in the documentation - the planning people don't need to know and anyway even if they did find out they wouldn't bother or you would just pay a small fine ' then RUN A MILE ( or at least a kilometre ).

Accepting that BS from a builder ended up causing me a LOT of grief over several years, not to mention 80 odd thousand grand lost.

Ignore what I am saying if you wish, but why take the risk when there are other properties which don't come with this kind of evasion of the rules ( if that is what it is ) baggage.
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Old Jun 30th 2021, 1:48 pm
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Default Re: T1 apartment sold as three-bed

Originally Posted by riv View Post
If someone, anyone, in this process is saying to you stuff, the gist of which is ' don't bother what it says in the documentation - the planning people don't need to know and anyway even if they did find out they wouldn't bother or you would just pay a small fine ' then RUN A MILE ( or at least a kilometre ).

Accepting that BS from a builder ended up causing me a LOT of grief over several years, not to mention 80 odd thousand grand lost.

Ignore what I am saying if you wish, but why take the risk when there are other properties which don't come with this kind of evasion of the rules ( if that is what it is ) baggage.
I would echo what riv says.
Also beware of the "apartment for 100k" washing machine 30k to help get a mortgage (if needed) for CG reasons when / if one sells.
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Old Jun 30th 2021, 3:32 pm
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Default Re: T1 apartment sold as three-bed

Many thanks for the replies. I'm sorry to hear about your horrible experience, riv. This apartment was built in 2016 so is established and has had at least one owner before. I noticed the discrepancy in the documentation my lawyer sent me. I've asked my lawyer what potential fallout this could cause me but I don't know what sort of reply I might get, if any, so thought it would be wise to ask for others' experience. One worry is that I'm the bigger fool coming along to rescue a smaller one and whether I'll be put in the same position down the line. Another is that although the town hall might turn a blind eye to the practice now, they might not be so tolerant in the future.I was hoping that everything would be straightforward with a modern apartment but no such luck.
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Old Jun 30th 2021, 3:35 pm
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Default Re: T1 apartment sold as three-bed

I'm also with riv. Most builders here are sharks, and architects are even worse. Always owe them money until you're absolutely happy or they'll never finish the job. Get your lawyer to come to site and give you their advice in writing, if it's subsequently wrong you have some recourse but even that's fraught as you'll struggle to find a lawyer that will persue another one.
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Old Jun 30th 2021, 3:49 pm
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Default Re: T1 apartment sold as three-bed

Check the size of the rooms that are not counted as bedrooms - they may be under the square meterage required to meet the standard. Also bedrooms must have a window and/or means of egress in case of fire? And what the heck is a Winter Garden?
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Old Jun 30th 2021, 3:58 pm
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Default Re: T1 apartment sold as three-bed

Originally Posted by Rambling archer View Post
Check the size of the rooms that are not counted as bedrooms - they may be under the square meterage required to meet the standard. Also bedrooms must have a window and/or means of egress in case of fire? And what the heck is a Winter Garden?
They’re all good-sized “bedrooms”. Besides the official bedroom, one has a window and the other, the “winter garden”, is what appears to be a nice bedroom with a small balcony outside (which is where the plants would go).
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Old Jun 30th 2021, 4:06 pm
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Default Re: T1 apartment sold as three-bed

Originally Posted by Score76 View Post
I'm also with riv. Most builders here are sharks, and architects are even worse. Always owe them money until you're absolutely happy or they'll never finish the job. Get your lawyer to come to site and give you their advice in writing, if it's subsequently wrong you have some recourse but even that's fraught as you'll struggle to find a lawyer that will persue another one.
Sadly I can testify to the builders and architect advice..... Sadly the lawyers are not much better in my experience so far.
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Old Jun 30th 2021, 4:36 pm
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Default Re: T1 apartment sold as three-bed

Winter garden is I believe what the Portuguese call a conservatory or orangery.
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Old Jun 30th 2021, 5:00 pm
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Default Re: T1 apartment sold as three-bed

Maybe the fact that you are asking the question at all is putting some doubt in your mind. Bear in mind that if you do go ahead, will this be playing in the back of your mind if the time ever comes when you want to sell.
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Old Jun 30th 2021, 5:41 pm
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Default Re: T1 apartment sold as three-bed

Originally Posted by toots sweet View Post
Maybe the fact that you are asking the question at all is putting some doubt in your mind. Bear in mind that if you do go ahead, will this be playing in the back of your mind if the time ever comes when you want to sell.
It’s certainly created some doubts about going ahead. The apartment is nicely laid out as a three-bed flat and I don’t think I’d have to change that. But if it had to be sold as an elaborate T1 rather than as a T2+1 or T3, would it be difficult to sell or would I have to sell for less than I paid. The price would be high for a T1. Although I don’t know the details, riv’s experience doesn’t sound encouraging. I’m hoping to learn enough now to avoid any regrets later. I was hoping that the replies to the thread would say that everyone does it and it’s no problem but it’s not turning out that way.
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Old Jun 30th 2021, 9:54 pm
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Default Re: T1 apartment sold as three-bed

I'd echo what others have said..... in fact I'd go further - RUN A MILE!!!

I am over 5 years into litigation with a builder (wife Architect) who said their company would "handle everything" about an extension to our property. Suffice it to say, no plans were drawn up, let alone submitted and they tried to build the extension without permission, leaving me to pick up the tab. When I found out I gave them the bum's rush.......... but, but, they had a contract! All in all, 5 years and over €85k later, I am left with a glorified tool shed and unable to complete the build until the litigation is resolved. Builders, Architects and Lawyers are not to be trusted...

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Old Jul 1st 2021, 1:02 pm
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Default Re: T1 apartment sold as three-bed

I agree with all the above comments.

Also add Estate agents to the list of sharks.

When we moved up to the area North of Lisbon, we looked at over 50 properties during a 9 month period.

The problem for the estate agents was that we both read, write & speak Portuguese and having just sold our house in Lagos knew exactly what were the legal requirements.

I had a run in with a Senior Manager at a well know imobiliario beginning with the letter "R" in Mafra. I had demanded all the legal documentation for a property we liked. Turned out the Annex was not legal, the plot size was wrong AND an access lane (serventia) running along the side of our property was part of the property although we had no access to it but would have had to pay IMI on it! When I said we were interested but the owners would have to resolve the legal issues, the Agent tried to tell me imperiously "that's OK. It's how it is in Portugal!"

Bad Mistake!!

He got a roasting from me in my best choice Portuguese about how it was illegal, that the Finanças & Registo do Predial were onto these things etc, etc.

He also lost a cash buyer!!

I also gave hell to the agent through which we bought our current property. Waited ages for the energy certificate. Also, shocked her by having an appointment at the Town Architect's Dept at the Câmara to confirm various facts and clarify a couple of legal points that the agent had fudged on!!

Trust none of the above.

In ending, I quote Mel Brooks!!

"Hope for the Best. Expect the worst"


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Old Jul 1st 2021, 7:24 pm
  #14  
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Default Re: T1 apartment sold as three-bed

Dont let your heart win over your head....walk away if YOU are in doubt.
If you are in doubt so will others be when you come to sell
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Old Jul 2nd 2021, 11:56 am
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Default Re: T1 apartment sold as three-bed

Originally Posted by MikeLo View Post
Hello everyone. I’m in the process of buying a three-bedroom apartment in Lagos that I’ve just learned is officially classified as a T1. I’m told that the developers called one bedroom an office and another a winter garden in order to keep the number of inhabitants in line with the allotment licence. I like the apartment and can live with the quirk in the planning process (if that’s what it is) as long as it doesn’t come back to bite me later. I’d be grateful to hear if anyone has any experience or knowledge of this practice. Thanks, Mike
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