Stay a UK tax resident
How do you live in PT and stay a Uk tax resident. Is the D7 relevant for this. I don’t want to apply for the NHR as i have a business that i run in the UK remotely for much of the time but i need to be registered here for tax so that i can access loans etc I’m just not sure that under D7 and residency rules that i am allowed to do both. Any advice would be great
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Re: Stay a UK tax resident
Originally Posted by Karmal123
(Post 13097974)
How do you live in PT and stay a Uk tax resident. Is the D7 relevant for this. I don’t want to apply for the NHR as i have a business that i run in the UK remotely for much of the time but i need to be registered here for tax so that i can access loans etc I’m just not sure that under D7 and residency rules that i am allowed to do both. Any advice would be great
If you reside in Portugal for more than 183 days (consecutive or otherwise) in any 12-month tax period (calendar year), you are likely to be considered tax resident. If so, and you receive income from anywhere in the world, you will be expected to declare it.... along with your worldwide assets. If you fail to declare relevant income or assets............ Why would a country allow someone to reside within it and use its facilities, without paying towards them? Why would any county allow someone to pick and choose where they pay tax (if at all), or what taxes they pay, when it is of no benefit? I'd suggest you pay for professional advice to limit your exposure, because the principle is often to fine first and allow you to make your excuses later. |
Re: Stay a UK tax resident
Originally Posted by Karmal123
(Post 13097974)
How do you live in PT and stay a Uk tax resident. Is the D7 relevant for this. I don’t want to apply for the NHR as i have a business that i run in the UK remotely for much of the time but i need to be registered here for tax so that i can access loans etc I’m just not sure that under D7 and residency rules that i am allowed to do both. Any advice would be great
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Re: Stay a UK tax resident
So what if you had no income but lived off savings
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Re: Stay a UK tax resident
Or would the golden visa more appropriate in this case
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Re: Stay a UK tax resident
I have some magic beans you can buy.........:sneaky:
I refer you to the questions and comment in my initial reply....... |
Re: Stay a UK tax resident
Originally Posted by Karmal123
(Post 13097994)
So what if you had no income but lived off savings
In short, you're trying to have your cake and eat it. If you want to live in Portugal then make the commitment, and man-up and pay the taxes. If you want to remain in the UK for tax reasons then that's fine too, but you will only be a visitor in Portugal, and limited to how long you can spend there in one visit/year. |
Re: Stay a UK tax resident
Wow didn’t expect such rude answers. If you don’t have a polite reply then don’t reply.
you can do what I have suggested but not on D7 |
Re: Stay a UK tax resident
Rude answers NO honest answers.
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Re: Stay a UK tax resident
Originally Posted by peterfc
(Post 13098070)
Rude answers NO honest answers.
Rosemary |
Re: Stay a UK tax resident
Originally Posted by Karmal123
(Post 13097974)
How do you live in PT and stay a Uk tax resident. Is the D7 relevant for this. I don’t want to apply for the NHR as i have a business that i run in the UK remotely for much of the time but i need to be registered here for tax so that i can access loans etc I’m just not sure that under D7 and residency rules that i am allowed to do both. Any advice would be great
From your post, it appears you don't yet have residence which was just a formality for us years ago, whereas you will be applying as third country citizen and need to declare everything and provide proof of income. |
Re: Stay a UK tax resident
Originally Posted by GrahamF
(Post 13098073)
As it happens, we're resident here (one's a citizen) and we pay all taxes in UK where we're tax resident but, only have UK pensions and savings income, no bank/savings interest or other income in Portugal. In your case, if you become resident, run a business from here and want to access loans then I can't see why there should be way of dodging tax.
From your post, it appears you don't yet have residence which was just a formality for us years ago, whereas you will be applying as third country citizen and need to declare everything and provide proof of income. It might well be that the tax paid in the UK is offset against any likely Portuguese taxes, it may well be that this results in no taxable income in Portugal, but that does not mean that Portugal does not retain the right to assess you and make that decision. It may also be that you have not had to accept this status until now, as your financial activity in Portugal has not flagged your existence to the tax authorities, but many people kept their heads down and ignored the legalities in the past (i.e. not even registering their presence in the country). However, now that the satus of the UK is different, it might be advisable to confirm that your assumed tax residency and liabilities are correct. I'll say nothing more ;) |
Re: Stay a UK tax resident
Originally Posted by Karmal123
(Post 13098062)
Wow didn’t expect such rude answers. If you don’t have a polite reply then don’t reply.
you can do what I have suggested but not on D7 Take professional advice and arrange your affairs accordingly. If this suggests you will be disadvantaged by living in Portugal, then it is your choice whether to take residence or not. However, if you are looking for a loophole to allow you to have the advantages of business and income from the UK and the lifestyle in Portugal, then i would invite you to ask yourself why others are telling you it can't be done. |
Re: Stay a UK tax resident
Originally Posted by macliam
(Post 13098086)
GrahamF, I am also married to a Portuguese (more, as an Irish citizen I still retain EU citizenship), but I am NOT a full-time resident in Portugal, due in part, to tax residency. AFAIK, if you are resident in Portugal (i.e. full time, more than 183 days PA) then whether your income is taxed in the UK or not does not change your status as being tax resident in Portugal, with an obligation to declare your income and assets to the Portuguese tax authority each year.
It might well be that the tax paid in the UK is offset against any likely Portuguese taxes, it may well be that this results in no taxable income in Portugal, but that does not mean that Portugal does not retain the right to assess you and make that decision. It may also be that you have not had to accept this status until now, as your financial activity in Portugal has not flagged your existence to the tax authorities, but many people kept their heads down and ignored the legalities in the past (i.e. not even registering their presence in the country). However, now that the satus of the UK is different, it might be advisable to confirm that your assumed tax residency and liabilities are correct. I'll say nothing more ;) |
Re: Stay a UK tax resident
Originally Posted by macliam
(Post 13098088)
If you think my answer is rude, then I suggest that you are not interested in the truth.
Take professional advice and arrange your affairs accordingly. If this suggests you will be disadvantaged by living in Portugal, then it is your choice whether to take residence or not. However, if you are looking for a loophole to allow you to have the advantages of business and income from the UK and the lifestyle in Portugal, then i would invite you to ask yourself why others are telling you it can't be done. |
Re: Stay a UK tax resident
Originally Posted by GrahamF
(Post 13098092)
We're not here full time either, UK is our main home. For many years, we just visited and stayed with in-laws, using family cars. Later on, we bought our own car and needed a residents parking permit so declared our presence as though we were living at that address. Having retired 22 years ago and moved the boat here, we've obviously spent more time in country and have owned property for a few years. My residence converted to permanent as 5 year temporary had run out a few years before. Unlike many others on this forum, we have never wanted to live here full time and cut ties with UK so we just come and go as and when we want. When purchasing the property, we were aware it could have an effect on our tax status so went down to local tax office and asked the question. We were told not to bother doing returns unless our position changed and we had Portuguese income to declare. As usual, advice we received from one tax officer may well conflict with advice elsewhere.
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Re: Stay a UK tax resident
Originally Posted by Karmal123
(Post 13097995)
Or would the golden visa more appropriate in this case
Your best bet is to get in touch with an organisation that specialises in golden visas and get some proper advice. Alternatively, get an EU passport if you are eligible! |
Re: Stay a UK tax resident
Originally Posted by Lou71
(Post 13098097)
I would say it's definitely an option for you and you don't have to be tax resident in Portugal unless you go over 183 days. The areas in Portugal where you can buy property under this scheme are limited now but I think parts of my area (Castro Marim) still qualify.
Your best bet is to get in touch with an organisation that specialises in golden visas and get some proper advice. Alternatively, get an EU passport if you are eligible! |
Re: Stay a UK tax resident
Originally Posted by macliam
(Post 13098095)
It really depends on where you are tax resident.... the rules are relatively simple. There is a difference between residency and tax residency.... I have avoided either, due to the impact of residency on my life in the UK (driving license, insurances, etc. etc.) as well as the issues of taxation. If you are NOT present in Portugal for 183 days per calendar year or more and don't fall into any other category defining you as tax resident in Portugal, then you are OK..... but as the saying goes "it's complicated".
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Re: Stay a UK tax resident
Originally Posted by GrahamF
(Post 13098103)
As you say, it's complicated and there's a Catch 22 situation. If resident for >183 days, one's supposed to be in tax system but, if not in country for at least 183 days, temporary residence can be cancelled. With permanent, I can be out IIRC for 2 years. After Brexit vote, many applied for temporary residence, not because they want to live here but don't want to be limited to 90-/180. When passports are scanned on entry/exit, border staff know exactly when we arrived or left and I do wonder if they are instructed to ignore the residence stay rules or just can't be bothered. May well change when new EU database up and running in a year or two.
I would dearly love to take residency, were it not that it would impact my life outside Portugal, i would accept tax residency for current income and assets in Portugal, were it not that assets built up and investments made during a lifetime outside Portugal would not suddenly become a windfall for the Portuguese state. But we are where we are.... |
Re: Stay a UK tax resident
Originally Posted by macliam
(Post 13098102)
An EU passport won't help with tax residency..... this is based on residency, not citizenship
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Re: Stay a UK tax resident
Originally Posted by Karmal123
(Post 13097974)
How do you live in PT and stay a Uk tax resident. Is the D7 relevant for this. I don’t want to apply for the NHR as i have a business that i run in the UK remotely for much of the time but i need to be registered here for tax so that i can access loans etc I’m just not sure that under D7 and residency rules that i am allowed to do both. Any advice would be great
The limited company would be a UK entity and liable for corporation tax in the UK and give you access to UK loans but personally you could become PT resident (and tax resident) using the D7 route and have your income and dividends taxed in PT under the NHR scheme. As has been suggested, for a few quid it's worth buying the Blevin Franks Living in Portugal book. Otherwise, we'll hear from you next year! |
Re: Stay a UK tax resident
Originally Posted by NSG666
(Post 13098111)
You've been weeks away from moving to various parts of Portugal for the past five years but if you are serious this time you might want to explore whether creating a limited company would work for you. I don't know so the following is just a thought:
The limited company would be a UK entity and liable for corporation tax in the UK and give you access to UK loans but personally you could become PT resident (and tax resident) using the D7 route and have your income and dividends taxed in PT under the NHR scheme. As has been suggested, for a few quid it's worth buying the Blevin Franks Living in Portugal book. Otherwise, we'll hear from you next year! OP's previous plan was to move to Portugal for 10 years under NHR (and then presumably move for another tax advantage) but they decided this wasn't good enough for them, so now they are searching for a new dodge which will give them the perfect advantage to themselves If they'd taken the time to read previous threads then they would know: 1) This doesn't work, tax authorities are smarter than them 2) Some of us get a little tired of the endless flow of new people who turn up then disappear again when they discover that moving countries actually comes with some problems and responsibilities |
Re: Stay a UK tax resident
Originally Posted by macliam
(Post 13098108)
Tell me about it! I have been dancing this Tango for many years... and my continued European citizenship allows me to stay longer than a UK citizen, but doesn't help with the rest. The whole area of citizenship, residence and tax-residence is a quagmire...... and in our cases, being married to Portuguese citizens makes it even more complicated.
I would dearly love to take residency, were it not that it would impact my life outside Portugal, i would accept tax residency for current income and assets in Portugal, were it not that assets built up and investments made during a lifetime outside Portugal would not suddenly become a windfall for the Portuguese state. But we are where we are.... |
Re: Stay a UK tax resident
Originally Posted by GrahamF
(Post 13098178)
I've actually wondered about giving up residency to make life easier as just a tourist but haven't been able to find the info I need. Being married to an EU citizen allows unlimited time in EU (in her company) and usual reporting if in any State >3 months but, I can't find anything to say I must have residence in her State of citizenship or, elsewhere in EU. Although my passport would indicate I'm in Portugal >3months at a stretch, in truth we're often away sailing in Spain, Gib or Morocco, although there are no exit stamps to confirm this. Any thoughts?
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Re: Stay a UK tax resident
Originally Posted by macliam
(Post 13098186)
TIf your residency is not impacting you in the UK (as mine would) then there seems little point in rocking the boat..... why do you think it would be an advantage to you?
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Re: Stay a UK tax resident
Originally Posted by GrahamF
(Post 13098197)
Residence here has had no impact for me in UK as we're still resident there but cancelling my Portuguese residence would avoid having to to deal with anything "official", no grey area with tax or, need for driving license exchange, medical, etc. You're correct about loss of free health care but UK EHIC would suffice. Wife would remain as dual citizen with usual benefits in both places. I really don't see a downside if free travel would still apply with marriage.
I'm an EU national with a British partner and that it what I did. It's an excellent service and it will give you the charity you need. |
Re: Stay a UK tax resident
Originally Posted by GrahamF
(Post 13098178)
I've actually wondered about giving up residency to make life easier [...]
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Re: Stay a UK tax resident
Originally Posted by RichardHenshall
(Post 13098229)
You seem to have qualified for permanent residency, somehow. Doesn't that also mean you've qualified to apply for Portuguese nationality, which would then allow you to lose your residency without any meaningful loss of rights?
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Re: Stay a UK tax resident
Originally Posted by GrahamF
(Post 13098250)
Yes, I could obtain citizenship but don't want to become a Portuguese national.
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Re: Stay a UK tax resident
Originally Posted by GrahamF
(Post 13098103)
As you say, it's complicated and there's a Catch 22 situation. If resident for >183 days, one's supposed to be in tax system but, if not in country for at least 183 days, temporary residence can be cancelled. With permanent, I can be out IIRC for 2 years. After Brexit vote, many applied for temporary residence, not because they want to live here but don't want to be limited to 90-/180. When passports are scanned on entry/exit, border staff know exactly when we arrived or left and I do wonder if they are instructed to ignore the residence stay rules or just can't be bothered. May well change when new EU database up and running in a year or two.
https://imigrante.sef.pt/en/direitos-deveres/ |
Re: Stay a UK tax resident
" You are protected by your wife's EU citizenship and exempt from the 90/180 day travel rule but it always better to check with the EU rather than take someone else's word for it."
Someone correct me if I'm wrong but I think this might be incorrect.MY OH is A PT national and I was told I need to apply for residency to be able to stay in PT for an indefinite period. Told to me by our local Camara. Still have to keep to the 90/180 rule if outside PT. |
Re: Stay a UK tax resident
Originally Posted by toots sweet
(Post 13098304)
" You are protected by your wife's EU citizenship and exempt from the 90/180 day travel rule but it always better to check with the EU rather than take someone else's word for it."
Someone correct me if I'm wrong but I think this might be incorrect.MY OH is A PT national and I was told I need to apply for residency to be able to stay in PT for an indefinite period. Told to me by our local Camara. Still have to keep to the 90/180 rule if outside PT. |
Re: Stay a UK tax resident
The residence reporting is generally required after a stay of 90 days.
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Re: Stay a UK tax resident
Originally Posted by RichardHenshall
(Post 13098321)
The residence reporting is generally required after a stay of 90 days.
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Re: Stay a UK tax resident
Originally Posted by GrahamF
(Post 13098323)
Yes sorry, my mistake 90 days is correct. I find the more I trawl through the various EU regulations, the more confusing it gets:(
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Re: Stay a UK tax resident
It is perfectly possible to be tax resident in both the UK and Portugal but then the delights of the UK/Portugal Income Tax Convention await.
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Re: Stay a UK tax resident
Yes yes I know I have been trying to do this for a while…sigh…I love how people pick that up if only I could have waved a wand it would have been so easy.
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Re: Stay a UK tax resident
Imho, unless there would be a clear advantage (and I could think of none) of being dual tax resident, one should avoid it, considering the complexities, the uncertainties, and the cost of compliance, to name but a few.
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