Midgo

Hi
I am sure there is lots on this in previous posts (& I have found a couple of recent ones elec price and heat pump ones for eg)

But, I am looking for a few entry level pointers on options, suppliers, installers etc, on Solar Electricity

We have
pellet burners downstairs,
upstairs 'reversible' heat pump / AC
Hot water & cooking gas bottles (esquentador has option for solar preheat, but this is another subject)
EDP electricity

Could anyone kindly give opinions on the following?

EDP - avoid with a large pointy stick is my gut feeling without even researching anything?

Recommendations of solar PV companies in Costa Caparica, Sétubal, Lisboa area?

Is 'registration' necessary? and what is this and with whom?

How does being connected to EDP grid 'work' - what are issues? I guess they take but dont give? I saw a post about 15 mins averages? Who does the connection to grid and at what cost?

etc

I'm looking for a current situation kind of guide to all the things that are clearly written in our / the government website, 25 unlinked levels down

I can understand technical stuff / calcs but have no background in the state of play

I may be a cynical old git, but am not very trusting of big fish small pond 'expert' companies which in my experience are the norm rather than the exception

Cheers

liveaboard

I have been struggling with the same questions; I went around to a few firms, large and small. One thing is clear, they have high markups.

I found you can buy components online for a lot less; if you can mount and wire it.
Probably a neighborhood electrician can do the wiring, it's very straightforward.

Prices are as low as 50 cents per watt; 200 euros for a 400w panel.
Regular roofing costs almost that much! These low prices change everything.
IVA has been reduced to 6% too.
For instance; https://www.lampamania.pt/painel-sol...ao-preta-ip68/

My project is on hold for now due to unforeseen circumstances.

Most shops told me EDP pays a few cents a kw; to sell power you need to register as a mirco-producer and (I think) fill out an extra tax form each year.
One guy told me the feed-in tariff depends on power demand / supply in your area and can go as high as 12 cents.

Maximum for a micro-producer is 30kw; IF you got 10 or 12 cents, it would be worth buying as many panels as you could. at 2 cents, you're best to just buy panels to supplement your own consumption, because it's a lot cheaper that\n you pay for grid power; but then you just have a 5 or 10 panels and the income you would get selling your excess isn't worth the paperwork.

Enter the evil EDP... they sell you panels and an inverter, then kindly accept your excess production for free. So why should they pay a feed in tariff? The things are now so profitable, the consumer comes out ahead even while EDP rips them off.

Combining a heat pump with solar PV should be good; the heatpump can be programmed to run preferentially when you have sunlight (I'm told).

That's all I have so far; I'm interested as to what other's have found out.

1Steve

I had solar panels installed back in April (Braga District) and my advice would be shop around as the price varied by as much as 2k euros. I had 2.75kW installed and it cost 3.2k. I got a quote from EDP but they decide what kW will be installed and it will depend on your consumption history and they only offered me 1.2 kW so no good.
E-Redes control the grid and you will need a new smart bi-directional meter and if it is scheduled to be installed in your area then you do not pay for it. I still have not been charged what would have been about 120 euros if I remember correctly so I assume my property was on the list to get a smart meter anyway.
The installation company did everything regarding mandatory registration with the correct authorities and also informing E-Redes so all went very smoothly. The smart meter was installed about 1 month after the solar panels and then you can get online access to production and consumption records with E-Redes.
I have solar storage heaters with an automatic control system that charges the heaters with the excess solar energy. I also have a hot water electric heater that also has auto control and uses solar energy and I am very happy with how they work.
Getting the balance right is important, I have excess power available during the summer which will come in handy as I plan to buy a PHEV car but during the winter I could do with more kW's.
I am not sure who gets the excess kW's that I generate, E-Redes do the 15 minutes calculations and, as far as I know, they only send the calculated readings to EDP and if that is the case then EDP will not get credited with my excess production. I have not signed any contract with EDP regarding excess production so maybe E-Redes take the excess kW's and sell them to the highest bidders? Maybe someone in the know could comment on that?

Just don't be conned by salespersons exaggerating the production from the solar panels. If it is dark and cloudy you will get 5% maximum production and hot and sunny 85%
I used Solar Irradiance - calculate the solar energy available on your site to calculate my production levels and is is very accurate.

I do not think that electricity prices will come done anytime soon, If ever, so although the installation cost is high I think it is a very good investment and will produce savings in the long term.

Midgo

If everyone had enough solar, what would EDP supply?
Very clever

zoff

Hi, can you post links for info on these devices. Thanks.

Midgo

Thanks liveaboard & 1Steve for helpful info

E-Redes IS EDP
https://www.e-redes.pt/en/about-us
scroll thtrough history which only mentions EDP distribution until 2021:
"On Jan 29, 21, EDP Distribuição is renamed E_REDES. .."

1Steve

Midgo
I need power on cloudy days and also at night so obviously solar power cannot be the only source of the grids electricity. Power plant production becomes less efficient when it continuously has to increase and decrease production when the sun comes and goes during the day so I do understand why they wish to limit the solar production from domestic users. In Australia in 2025 electricity companies can start to charge a fee to domestic customers who export solar production into the grid. So how many politicians will need to be bribed convinced to produce similar legislation here?

1Steve

https://www.elnurgabarron.pt/sobre-nos/

zoff

Thank you.

dingg

We have solar pv, 3.6kwh inverter, 13 panel system, cost 18 months ago about 4300 iirc, we got the grant from fundo ambiental for 2500e back, so only 1800 outlay, its paid for itself already, summer it runs ashp and pool circ pump for free and our monthly bill has been as low as 32e, anything that goes back to the grid does not give us a payment....

Hth

Ps shop about for quotes as they vary tremendously.....

Midgo

Thanks
I didnt even know about grants available, are they still?

ASHP is Air source heat pump isnt it?
I am struggling to understand what the terminology used 'in common parlance' actually means

Air con is a heat pump and it uses air as a source (as opposed to the ground, which some heat pumps use as source) but it is advertised as a separate entity to the ASHP

Is this the accepted terminology?
ASHP
https://protonsforbreakfast.files.wo...-14_225517.png
A/C
https://protonsforbreakfast.files.wo...-14_225425.png

If so, then I assume that:

- If you need hot water then you need an 'ASHP' (AC doesnt have hot enough temps neither water circuit heat exchanger)

- If you just need air heating then both 'AC' and 'ASHP' will do it (although an extra heat exchanger is going to reduce efficiency of ASHP, surely?)

- If you need air heating and cooling then you need an AC which will, simplistically, run in reverse (ASHP could cool the water in its 2ndary circuit but you dont see cold water 'reverse' radiators in houses anywhere)

Is that right?

But you say, 'summer it runs ashp and pool circ pump for free' which doesnt make sense to have to heat the house in the summer?
Ah.
The penny drops
ASHP is to heat the pool water? EDIT: or even to cool it in the hot summer temps?

Re-reading, Sorry, for interrogative tone, not meant like that a all - just trying to understand

I think I have to think of our setup and see if Solar PV is in fact worth it for us since
- We have gas hot water (which could use a solar preheat but its not PV)
- We have reversible aircon for heating in winter upstairs for night times that hardly gets used (pellet burners downstairs) and cooling in summer, but we dont really use AC cooling much, only in worst days of Aug as house well insulated
- We dont have a pool
- We have gas for cooking hob, but thats not a huge out going
- We have an electric oven, but thats only used at night
- So maybe the PV would only be used to make my many cups of tea during the day (but I could use the hot water from the solar water heater for that - I can hear the gasps of disbelief and downright offence from the brits (and Dutch and others) )

Of course we could be really 'eco' and throw out all our perfectly good aircon, pellet burners, gas heaters etc etc and buy nice new shiny 'low carbon footprint' integrated all electric solar PV powered systems

dingg

Summarise

Ashp in my case is pool heater yes.

In your case unless you intend getting an electric car, I don't see the point of outlay for a solar pv system, the payback would be very long....

Fundo ambiental opens annually for grant applications but you do have to jump through quite a few hoops


Hth

liveaboard

Start with your electricity bill; but really you need to know how much you're paying for power you use during the day.

It sounds like you use very little electricity. It really only gets exciting when you have some large users during daylight.

Most installers set the panels at 30 degrees from horizontal, which will provide the maximum Kwh over the year. Most of it in summer, so you can gift it to EDP.
If the panels are set at 45 degrees they will give you more power in winter, and you'll still have more than that in summer but less than you would have if they're at 30 degrees.

Midgo

We used 4250 kWh over the last year, so around 350 kWh per month (around €85)
3 of us in a smallish medium sized (would be average sized in UK) detached house. No pool
Does that sound like a lot or little?

And we have a smart meter now, but presumably we cant get a house usage meter like my mum and dad have back in the UK?
There is nothing on our EDP page to tell me which times I am using more or less leccy
Like this

liveaboard

Some of that is standing charge, and probably more than half is at night. maybe you could save a few hundred per year.
Considering that it would only cost a few thousand, and power costs may rise, it's probably still worthwhile economically.
Whether it's worth your time and bother I can't say.

For us the exciting thing is to get an air source heat pump to heat the house and hot water, and after that a solar PV installation that should supply most of the power for it.
But you said you heat with pellets and you're happy with that; all these gizmos add up to quite a bit of money.