solar panels?
 

Any views on getting a small solar panel installed? How much is a very basic one going to cost, and how much am I going to save with it?

Re: solar panels?
 

It's not like that. What sort of solar panel are you asking about PV or hot water? Where do you expect it to be installed, on the ground, house roof, camper van, block of flats? how many hours of full sun does the site enjoy? Are you looking for a tracking system? 12VDC 24VDC 240VAC of some other? What storage capacity will you require? etc etc

Re: solar panels?
 

Thanks. Probably PV. On a south-facing roof in Algarve. No idea about voltage I'm afraid, or what a tracking system is.

Re: solar panels?
 

To be honest - if you cannot say what you want/need then on one will be able to give you a realistic solution as to what is available and prices to fit your requirements - there are just far far too many variables.
If you look on sites like OXL or Ebay you'll find solar stuff and even complete systems so you can compare some possibilities THEN ask someone local to you for a price for fitting. You'd also need someone to check where ever you think you want a panel etc installed as roof fitting involves access to the structure of the roof and this is not always possible or sensible.

Re: solar panels?
 

Solar water heating is a given, if it's possible for you..... but personally, I'd forget retrofit solar electricity unless you have a way to use the generated power straight away. It's good for pumps, etc. (during the day)..... but domestic use, less so. Panels are cheap, but batteries and storage are an expensive game.

Re: solar panels?
 

Thanks! Yeah, that's kinda what I was thinking too. Not even sure it's worthwhile for hot water, as I don't use it on a daily basis.

Re: solar panels?
 

If you already have a gas water heater installed and want to go solar hw it's a long pay back time, plus our area you need anodes fitting quite regularly, I calculated we're much better off buying a few cylinders per annum.

Otoh I heard that grants are available to recover 70% of the cost of green energy applications on property built before 2006, but trying to find out how possible it is to achieve is somewhat elusive....

Re: solar panels?
 

Contact EDP, they have a sales team for this.
They install and wire it up for surprisingly little money. They'll also give you a simulation stating what you'll supposedly save on your energy bill.
Just west of Lagos, you can see a HUGE solar farm being built just inland from the A22.
HUGE.

Re: solar panels?
 

Look very closely at the EDP small print, the terms and conditions. I completed the simulation and was very disappointed. EDP did not recommend enough PV panels for my requirements or storage batteries. The discount they quoted on future consumption of electricity was time limited as well. Also, there is no feed-in tariff, so unless you are going to consume all the electricity your panels produce during daylight hours, you don't gain much at all.

Re: solar panels?
 

Batteries aren't practical if you have grid connection. They cost more than the power they will ever store.

Yes, there is no feed in tarrif; you give it free and then they charge you when you draw it back.
That's why I didn't go for it either; but if you want PV panels on your roof you either need EDP or batteries.

Re: solar panels?
 

Thanks. So looks like the EDP option is the only practical possibility for me. Not sure how much so for a small town house with fairly low consumption?

How big would a panel need to be in such a case?

Re: solar panels?
 

Usually you'd get the info for property consumption vs time over a period of months from your existing supplier or by taking readings twice a day or a clamp on logger then you know how much you use and how much the panels will need to produce to cover this, that is if your aim is to produce power to match your consumption during daylight.
Panel are rated approx 80W, 100w, 150w, 200w, 250w etc but that's the max output so you have to factor in a percentage for shade, sun direction, etc. The sensible way is to use a small test panel in the place/direction/slope you want the installation and log the output over time to find if a full installation would produce what you want or if it'll all be a waste of time and money.
We tend to use this type of item (I have no connection with this company and have not used their specific products)
https://www.energyhive.com/content/products

Re: solar panels?
 

It's sad that the more I research and look at solar the less it financially makes sense.
Even in NY, usa where the feeding is the same rate as you pay to draw from the grid it took people 12yrs to reclaim the cost of their initial set ups.
I dred to think the time line needed to recoup in Portugal!

I'm certainly not anti Solar... Far from it, I just suffer from logical brain calculations rather than the emotional appeal of self sufficient environmental factors.

Most people on here seem rather unimpressed with solar electricity viability in Portugal, but how are people finding solar water heating?

Re: solar panels?
 

Sorry for the slight tangent question but does anyone know how you find out the distance/accessibility to mains gas?
I've bought 2 properties here, 1 in a historic village, 1 in a rural environmental area so both currently mains electric for everything... Sighhh

Re: solar panels?
 

Thanks again. It would be south-facing, and should get sun most of the day. It would be attached to a wall, though, rather than to the roof (the azoteia is quite small), so maybe the angle would also affect power generated?

My consumption is going to be fairly low, I think. One person, pretty tight in general terms ;)

Re: solar panels?
 

Everyone seems very negative and anti solar here. The key to getting solar pv to work here in Portugal is to buy good quality, mono crystalline panels that deal well with the temperatures at the best price, use as much of the power you generate (some automation can help) and don't oversize the system.

I installed my own 3 phase system in June last year, 900w per phase. Cost around £3000. I installed Owl monitoring which right now shows that since install its generated 8014kwh. I exported (failed to use) 2201kwh for which EDP give you nothing unless you have the old style meter that runs backwards. My supplier is Galp, on bi-horária tariff (cheaper overnight). My latest shows a rate of 0.1982€ per kwh (plus iva), so:
8014 - 2201 = 5813 (kwh I generated and used myself)
5813 x 0.1982 x 1.23 = 1417€ saving since install (1 year and 5 months)
My payback is around 3 years

For a single phase, smaller system, sized right, the export would be less, the initial outlay less so pay back would be less too.

Re: solar panels?
 

A 3 year payback is very impressive and gives hope to us fence sitters.

How do you identify the older meters that run backwards that you mention?

Re: solar panels?
 

https://cimg4.ibsrv.net/gimg/british...282521c2a.jpeg
Old style meter
Old style meter is going to look something like this. Electromagnetic field caused by current flow used to spin the disc you can see in the middle plus mechanical gears to count the rotations and turn the dials showing the reading. If you have solar and are exporting then the disc spins backwards so the reading goes down. New style meters are all electronic with digital displays.

Re: solar panels?
 

That's interesting; I was told EDP wouldn't let inverters connect to their system unless their own installer did the work and they sold you the gear.

They give a discount on your power tarrif, but only for a year [as I recall].
That really put me off the whole thing. I just didn't believe their numbers [I am a TERRIBLE sceptic], and not paying anything at all for feed in just rubs wrong.

Your setup for 3,000 sounds like a great deal. Does GALP give you any incentive at all?
I've never heard of a 3-phase synchronous inverter, and I've asked a few times.
I thought they must be out there somewhere.

Re: solar panels?
 

I understood it that anyone could install up to 1.5kw per phase without input from EDP. They sell self install, plug-in panels on their site for this purpose. Upwards of that you need to get them involved and possibly limit export if they require it so best to just stay below that threshold.

3 phase inverters typically start at 5kw making them unviable for pv arrays below that. I use Enphase micro inverters, one per 300w panel, so essentially 9 x single phase systems, wired 3 per phase.

No incentives from Galp other than the 10% back onto my Continente Card every month which is always nice :-)

Re: solar panels?
 

Thanks score76, that's the exact one I have.

Re: solar panels?
 

Then you're one of the lucky ones and you can't possibly lose out with solar pv. During the day whatever panels you had would generate power, you use whatever you use, the excess goes to grid and causes your meter to run backwards. When the sun goes down your meter runs forwards again and you get back what you exported to grid during the day. Just don't over do it and end up with a lower reading from one bill to the next or someone will come and investigate why. They'll change your meter for a digital one that only goes forwards. PM me if you want help sizing/sourcing/fitting.

Re: solar panels?
 

Thank you for both the info and offer, I most certainly will.

Re: solar panels?
 

Thank you for this. I may need your help when I come to this next spring .

Re: solar panels?
 

You shouldn't bank on that reversible meter; EDP has a policy to swap them all out for 'smart' meters, and it's likely they'll be along to do that one day soon.

If you use a lot of power at slow steady rates during the day when it's sunny, panels at today's low prices can pay for themselves anyway.
If you use most of you electricity at night, they won't do much for you [unless you still have that reversible old meter].
It's quite difficult to figure out.

Re: solar panels?
 

I am in the latter category. I use night storage heaters for a comfortable house in the winter in my retirement. My meter was changed to a so-called smart meter over 2 years' ago. What I want from the electricity suppliers is for them to reduce the price of electricity by investing more in things like solar power and reducing their costs. I need a lot more than 1.5 KW per phase and I need it when the sun has gone to bed.

Re: solar panels?
 

They're investing in a lot of solar, but that isn't reducing the costs I'm afraid.
Huge installations going in are on contracts signed years ago, specifying high, outdated feed in tariffs.
While they pay us zero for solar energy we might feed into the grid, we pay a fortune for solar and wind energy when we draw it from the grid.

The low night rates we pay now might reverse in future, as more and more PV generation comes online in the country. A lot of commercial users have their own rooftop arrays to reduce their bills.
Solar electricity generation is now economically viable for daytime direct use, for those who use a known amount like supermarkets or factories.

Re: solar panels?
 

The imminent changes are related to charging electric cars, the present infrastructure/grid will not be able to support the extra power. However - as seen in the states - people with electric cars (and their work places) have been installing PV to charge the things thereby getting over the "not having banks of batteries" and even UK Motorway Services are covering their available roof space to power the hastily installed charging bays (obs it's all sublet), As more houses get panels the demand on the grid will probably decrease and the cost to the consumer who is taking power from the grid will go up.
And as for the Moroccans
https://edition.cnn.com/2019/02/06/m...ntl/index.html

Re: solar panels?
 

What I do not understand is why, having had new wiring and new meter, junction box, etc etc, they have provided a Smart meter but I still have to do a reading every month and fill it in either on the mobilephone app or via the web? I am told that it is not completely set up in this area of deepest central Portugal, 5 km from a nice big town, and I will receive a letter in the fullness of time when they get round to it ... !!! Surely a Smart meter is a Smart meter?
And have you seen the cost of setting up a Plug-in site for your eventual electric car - I am afraid we didn't bother with that ....

Re: solar panels?
 

I have a so-called smart meter but I suspect that, like my smart TV, it is not that smart. I don't think it has a modem and therefore cannot transmit readings back to the EDP offices. The other day, I received a telephone call from an EDP employee to say that he would be with me shortly to check my meter, I know not why, but he arrived shortly after. He removed the front protective cover and placed a magnetic device on the meter. He was then able to communicate with the meter. He muttered something about a problem in the area after a night of power failures and then departed. To my mind, that is how they can communicate with smart meters at the moment.

My meter is read by EDP once a year and we settle up the annual bill with either a credit to my bank account from EDP or an additional bill to my direct debits. I pay a regular amount for 11 months, and then the 12th payment if I am still in debt. I don't have to read my meter every month and submit readings since I pay by monthly direct debits.

Re: solar panels?
 

They installed a new meter at our place recently; I don't know what 'smart' means, but it's a meter that can be read remotely so they won't need to come to the house.
The installation guy told me it will only function when they install a new transformer for the area, with the receiving system in it.
They work by sending the information back up the power supply line.

Re: solar panels?
 

The meters being installed in Portugal are not 'smart' meters as we are seeing in the UK. They are replacing the old analogue meters with digital and at the same time allowing them to be read centrally. Anyone with a new meter should a PLC (sometimes PLA) led. If this is green then the meter is in contact with the grid and can be read remotely, so ignore any request to provide readings. If this led is red or off, then although your meter is capable the local grid is not, you need to still provide readings when asked.

Re: solar panels?
 

Thanks folks - glad I am not alone in my non-smart meter. That explains it all a bit better. Ours has a red light - looking forward to spotting GREEN sometime!
Cheers

Re: solar panels?
 

Mine had a red light but it's gone out!

Re: solar panels?
 

:ohmy::confused::eek:

Re: solar panels?
 

Some still get away with this :) But if your house is recently built (7 years or less) it's more than likely you will have a new digital meter. And liveaboard, I have a hybrid system and use batteries. I got NiFe (Nickel Iron) batteries from Bimble Solar https://www.bimblesolar.com/index.php recently. They ship to Portugal. These are robust (you don't have to worry about them besides keeping them hydrated) and they will pay for themselves in 10 years with my rate of consumption. Panels are relatively cheap. Their major cost is the transport.