So much choice!

Old Aug 9th 2020, 8:40 pm
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Default So much choice!

Hello everyone
Just joined this site tonight and wondered if I can throw some questions out there and see what comes back. My Husband and I are seriously thinking about making a move to Portugal early next year. Unfortunately it is just too tight to even consider getting over there before end of December as much as we'd love too for various reasons but we are going to see what happens post Brexit and if nothing too scary comes out of the deal/no deal then we will be looking to sell up and move into rented whilst we figure out where we want to buy etc.

We have been looking at so many lovely areas and it seems we are literally spoilt for choice but top of the list so far seems to be Nazare. The temperatures are not toooo hot for Hubby and property prices seem very good. It is also scoring points for being good for transport links too. Does anyone on here live in Nazare and can offer anymore input?

We intend on buying mortgage free, have savings in the bank and live off a monthly income of around 1,800 euros. Is this enough to enjoy a comfortable lifestyle? We know the cost of living is lower than in the UK but it's swings and roundabouts with regards to what is lower/higher in Portugal v UK. For instance we will have to pay out for health insurance which is something we aren't doing currently but food and drink seems to be lower in Portugal, especially the drink! Porto 6 wine in UK is around £7/£8 a bottle as opposed to 3 euros in Supermarket in Portugal!

Finally I'd love to hear from anyone who has maybe recently had an offer accepted on a house and they got it for way lower than the asking price as I have read that it's standard practice to offer a lot less than its advertised for. Obviously even in the UK you get knocked down when selling but it seems to be the prices in Portugal can come down by quite a big jump.

Thank you reading and I look forward to hearing others experiences,

Regards
Elaine

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Old Aug 9th 2020, 10:32 pm
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Default Re: So much choice!

Originally Posted by Greener56
Hello everyone
Just joined this site tonight and wondered if I can throw some questions out there and see what comes back. My Husband and I are seriously thinking about making a move to Portugal early next year. Unfortunately it is just too tight to even consider getting over there before end of December as much as we'd love too for various reasons but we are going to see what happens post Brexit and if nothing too scary comes out of the deal/no deal then we will be looking to sell up and move into rented whilst we figure out where we want to buy etc.

We have been looking at so many lovely areas and it seems we are literally spoilt for choice but top of the list so far seems to be Nazare. The temperatures are not toooo hot for Hubby and property prices seem very good. It is also scoring points for being good for transport links too. Does anyone on here live in Nazare and can offer anymore input?

We intend on buying mortgage free, have savings in the bank and live off a monthly income of around 1,800 euros. Is this enough to enjoy a comfortable lifestyle? We know the cost of living is lower than in the UK but it's swings and roundabouts with regards to what is lower/higher in Portugal v UK. For instance we will have to pay out for health insurance which is something we aren't doing currently but food and drink seems to be lower in Portugal, especially the drink! Porto 6 wine in UK is around £7/£8 a bottle as opposed to 3 euros in Supermarket in Portugal!

Finally I'd love to hear from anyone who has maybe recently had an offer accepted on a house and they got it for way lower than the asking price as I have read that it's standard practice to offer a lot less than its advertised for. Obviously even in the UK you get knocked down when selling but it seems to be the prices in Portugal can come down by quite a big jump.

Thank you reading and I look forward to hearing others experiences,

Regards
Elaine
A few points.... You don't say how much experience you have of Portugal and the Portuguese..... have you stayed for any extended period in the area you suggest?
Why Nazaré? The Atlantic coast can be very stomy and humid in Winter.
I assume you will not be working - if you are, then you'll need to factor in Portuguese taxation, etc.
Do you speak Portuguese? If not, you may find yourself at a disadvantage in a working town and when looking for accommodation....
Do not presume that living costs will be lower than in the UK.... some things are cheaper, some things are more expensive.... it depends how you live.
If you are going to be looking for something in the Nazaré area, it will need to be well insulated... so you are probably looking at new-build and that may constrain your chances of a discount. If not new-build, do not assume that vendors will accept a lower offer. In a non-tourist area, the likelihood is that property will be owned by multiple heirs.... and they'll all want top dollar, Portugal is full of houses that have been on the market for years.... and the prices are adjusted up, not down, over time!

The more infor you give, the more people can help you.
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Old Aug 9th 2020, 11:13 pm
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Default Re: So much choice!

Thank you for your response. Just to answer a few of your questions we will not be expecting to work as we’d want to be fluent in Portuguese if that was the plan. However we are starting to learn the language and would continue to do so if we do end up making the move.

Neither of us have spent any length of time there hence why we would be looking to rent for at least 6 months to make sure we want to settle there. We chose Portugal over Spain and France after reading so many positive things about it and whilst we don’t presume and take for granted the cost of living will be lower than the UK for everything we have seen many expats giving their run down on costs on YouTube so we have been able to make comparisons that way.

Nazare is just one of the many areas of interest and will be on the no doubt long list of places to visit. We’re also aware that some houses can be cold in the winter however after living with British winters for over 50 years I doubt we’d freeze to death during a Portuguese winter.

Discounts on new builds are a rarity in England too as we found out after buying one ourselves. We’ve seen quite a few older houses for sale which have had their prices dropped so we know they do exist.

At this stage I wouldn’t want to ask a million questions and waste people’s time if things don’t work out. I just thought it would be handy to hear from anyone in the Nazare area as a starting point.
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Old Aug 10th 2020, 7:39 am
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Default Re: So much choice!

You might not feel you'd freeze in a house in Portugal, but the houses here are not built for the winter, they're built to keep us cool in the summer. Even our house, which is under 20 years old, has a B+ energy rating is cold in the winter.

Look a little more inland, the coast is lovely in the summer and can be rather dreary in the winter. We lived on the coast for 10 years and found it more touristy. Sorry, can't help re Nazare, but it will get busy, because of where it is.

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Old Aug 10th 2020, 7:42 am
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Default Re: So much choice!

Oh, and don't expect an offer a lot below the asking price, to be accepted. As Macliam said, there are a lot of houses on the market now. When we were selling our house, the Portuguese kept offering 20,000€ less - which was always refused. We weren't asking silly money for the house, just the going rate for the area. In the end, we sold to another Portuguese family at 5,000€ below the asking price.
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Old Aug 10th 2020, 8:22 am
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Default Re: So much choice!

Cannot agree more with all the comments on the need for heating in PT houses. We spend each winter at ours(near Santarem) and sometimes it can be bone chillingly cold inside,even with heating on and ours like Ouriiquejan is only about 15 years old. No cavity insulation etc. Have often gone outside as it can be warmer there!! Older houses need a lot more heating.
We made an offer on our house ,about €8/9k below the asking price which was accepted as the owners had already moved out to Lisbon. It had already been reduced before we put in our offer.
Nazare.. we have spent the winter some time back down the coast in Sao Martinho do Porto. Really liked the area but we decided against it because it could get quite windy and the mists in that area (think also in the summer) can be quite heavy and damp.
Living costs,as said can be lower.Personally I think on average there is not much difference,except for the PT equivalent of council tax,whick is 10% of the cost of our UK property. My biggest gripe is the cost of bread which as a basic food I find pretty expensive compared to the UK.
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Old Aug 10th 2020, 8:56 am
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Default Re: So much choice!

ouriquejan and toots sweet thank you for your input. Very helpful. We don’t necessarily want to be right on the coast, more inland but we live in a coastal resort now and accept there is a big difference between summer and winter living. But again this is why we intend on doing our research and won’t be jumping into buying a house after just a short time.
It’s also helpful to know just how cold the houses are even with a B+ rating. As everyone has a different cold threshold though what degree of cold are we talking about please. Would you say way below 10 degrees and you have to sit with really thick clothing on?
I agree with toots sweet regarding a lot of things are pretty similar to UK prices as currently the euro isn’t much different to the pound. However the council tax equivalent is a massive difference to what we currently pay here so that alone would be a massive saving to start with.
As with all things there are pros and cons and trade offs as no country has a 100% pros only rating but I’m guessing overall that despite some of the small negatives everyone on here thoroughly enjoys living in Portugal and wouldn’t want to be anywhere else.
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Old Aug 10th 2020, 9:41 am
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Default Re: So much choice!

For a slightly different viewpoint Greener, I split my time between UK and Portugal. Yes, the standout cheaper item is Council Tax / IMI.

I personally don't find food much if any cheaper than UK. Electrical items always appear very expensive to me, the service costs (Gas, Electric,Water) are pretty much the same (for us) as UK. Clothes don't seem particularly cheap either (not that I need any)

Eating out, unless doing a Prato Do DIA, I find on a par with UK, but even then you can get a cheap meal at many UK pubs who run similar offers, especially for us oldies!!

The wine may be cheap but unless you are Dean Martin you ain't gonna live on it.

As for winters, our place is about 15/16 years old and would agree with others,it is Baltic in the winter and like others we go out for a warm.

I think, as you say, spend six months, see if it is for you, seen quite a few who are used to a busy UK life find it hard to adjust to a slower more relaxed pace, especially those without hobbies / interests, a lot of the quieter places there is not a great deal to do and the norm (not for everyone) becomes a stroll to the bar / cafe and a "few drinks"

I know many on here have settled and fair play to them, but for me personally I would find it hard (even with hobbies) to keep busy hence I have never made the move full time.

Good luck anyway.


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Old Aug 10th 2020, 10:04 am
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Default Re: So much choice!

We don't let the house go too cold Greener We have two fires, one inset and one free standing wood fires for keeping us toasty. We get through about 2 ton of wood a winter and a local farmer delivers.

We don't pay council tax, we're too remote, no street lights etc.

Again, it depends on the area, but we can eat out quite happily for under 30 euros, with wine.

Our house does have cavity, the original owner had lived in a very cold house, so made this one over spec. We don't normally light the fire until the afternoon, but if it is really cold outside, 5C, then it gets lit earlier. I don't think I could go back to central heating though, I actually like a cool bedroom.

Car tax and insurance I think is cheaper. Our car is almost 22 and we pay 150 something euros for tax and around 200 for insurance.
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Old Aug 10th 2020, 10:05 am
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Default Re: So much choice!

Thank you chislenko for your viewpoint. I wish we could afford to split our time too but unfortunately we need to sell our current home in order to buy another one.
I must say I am very confused by the fact everyone on here is saying prices aren’t that much different to the UK. We’ve seen quite a few videos on YouTube where expats give a run down of their monthly expenditures with utilities etc and we sit open mouthed at the difference to what we spend and that is with them being a family of four and we are only two people. We know electricity and white goods are horrendously expensive along with costly clothing but that is not too much of a trade off for us.
We moved from a busy town in the North of England to a small coastal town in North Yorkshire so we are half way to living an even slower pace of life. I can understand people going direct from hustle bustle to Portugal getting a massive culture shock.
The other thing that appeals to us is the fact you have access to so many more countries in Europe without the need to fly every time so road trips would be a lovely way to pass the time. Plus flights to non EU countries seem a lot less than where we currently have to fly from.
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Old Aug 10th 2020, 10:13 am
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Default Re: So much choice!

Think it all depends on how and what you spend your money on.

Electric is expensive, we pay about 40 euros a month, more in the summer when we have the pool pump on. I spend anything from 40 to 80 each week on food and beer in the supermarket. We used to go out to dinner once a month or so, but have only been out twice this year.

Clothes we get from the local Chinese shop or C & A in the Algarve. And as we don't go out a lot, we tend to wear the old stuff and then the new stuff stays new longer!

Trains are cheap, our friends use them to get here from the Algarve.
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Old Aug 10th 2020, 10:15 am
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Default Re: So much choice!

Thanks ouriquejan 👍. I’d heard car insurance tax etc was reasonable although I gather petrol is not and some people combine a trip over the border to Spain to fill up.
Whilst we’d love to not have to pay council tax unfortunately we don’t want to be that remote but we can put up with a lower cost than the UK as the next best thing.
We’d be quite happy sitting around a lovely fire in the winter. I grew up in a house in the 70’s where the only source of heating was one gas fire in the sitting room so I reckon I’d be able to adjust to some colder nights for a few months a year. You can never have too many fleece and wool jumpers 😂
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Old Aug 10th 2020, 10:29 am
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Default Re: So much choice!

ouriquejan yes we read how cheap the trains are which is a plus in our book. One of the things we’d look at is do we really need a car. That’s why we want to be somewhere with good transport links be it train or bus and see if we can manage without a car. However if we did get one it would be a cheap clean and reliable one as opposed to anything else as we also know car prices are ridiculously high there.
Having a property with a pool isn’t essential to us so at least we’d be keeping electricity costs down there.

Like you say it all depends on what you spend your money on, how frivolous you are etc but I’d say we like the odd treat but we don’t splash money about like it’s going out of fashion and we love a bargain so we’d hopefully be able to sniff those out too.

I think the main thing is not to go to Portugal with a UK head on as such. That’s where the problem lies for a lot of people. I’m lucky in that I’ve lived in Italy so I am aware that it’s a completely different way of life and can not compare to the UK. You need to start a fresh page and look at things as they are. If we do that during our rental period I’m sure we’ll make the right choice as to whether or not it’s for us.
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Old Aug 10th 2020, 11:38 am
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Default Re: So much choice!

Originally Posted by Greener56
ouriquejan yes we read how cheap the trains are which is a plus in our book. One of the things we’d look at is do we really need a car. That’s why we want to be somewhere with good transport links be it train or bus and see if we can manage without a car. However if we did get one it would be a cheap clean and reliable one as opposed to anything else as we also know car prices are ridiculously high there.
Having a property with a pool isn’t essential to us so at least we’d be keeping electricity costs down there.

Like you say it all depends on what you spend your money on, how frivolous you are etc but I’d say we like the odd treat but we don’t splash money about like it’s going out of fashion and we love a bargain so we’d hopefully be able to sniff those out too.

I think the main thing is not to go to Portugal with a UK head on as such. That’s where the problem lies for a lot of people. I’m lucky in that I’ve lived in Italy so I am aware that it’s a completely different way of life and can not compare to the UK. You need to start a fresh page and look at things as they are. If we do that during our rental period I’m sure we’ll make the right choice as to whether or not it’s for us.
OK, given the further information that you offer, I can add a few things - I have been travelling to Portugal for over 30 years, regularly spend several months a year there and have been to every region (SWMBO form Lisbon, FiL near Agueda, BiL in Sintra, Cousins in Aveiro and Viseu, spent a lot of time in the Alto Alentejo and on the Spanish border). Nazaré is on the Atlantic coast.... but there is no Gulf Stream to warm it and precious little Atlantic shelf.... so forget any thoughts you may have regarding comparison to the UK - the water is generally colder and rougher and storms can blow in quickly. The coldest sea water I have ever felt was in the Algarve in February...... my feet immediately went numb (having said which, I wouldn't even think to try the water further North)!! Winter storms can actually scour the sand from the Altlantic beaches - I recall going to Ericeira a few years back (where I spent my honeymoon 30 years ago) and there was no beach left at all - imagine the storms to do that! On the Alentejo coast, houses often need repainting every couple of years or thet turn green! Also, do not judge comfort on the centigrade scale - the coldest I have ever felt was in an apartment in Lisbon at Easter.... it was a grey and rainy day and the lack of heating and insulation meant that it just never got warmer and made sitting inside thoroughly miserable, even if the thermometer might have suggested it was 10%. If you are staying for some time, ensure you stay through January/February. Equally, it has neared 40C in the Alentejo on several days so far this year..... which is too hot to be doing much and equally uncomfortable without cooling. With regard to houses, those built before the current standards of insulation can be dire. They are built very differently than in the UK and the Portuguese seem to tolerate cold (although they hate it) rather than do anything about it. In winter, people work and eat out in scarves and topcoats if it's chilly! Solid or single-skin walls can make any room feel like a fridge (we had to insulate walls on the NE side of our house).

Food is good and relatively cheap (SWMBO is Portuguese, so we don't eat British food), but other basics can be very expensive - my razors cost 4 times as much in Portugal as in the UK.... and if you have to rely on bottled gas, that too is expensive. Eating out is reasonable, but any "luxuries or clothes - particularly "names" - tend to be expensive and remember the rate of VAT is higher at 23%. The IMI (property tax) is indeed far cheaper than in the UK.... but either you have no services, (dirt road, no lights, no rubbish collection, etc.) or you may pay seperately (in Olhao there is a council "company", Ambiolhao, which charges every month for water, sewerage and rubbish collection.... this normally works out at about €15, but we're not there all the time. So, if you live frugally, it can be cheaper, but not mind-blowingly so.... if that's a reason for coming, you could be disappointed.

On transport, unless you intend to live in a fairly major town, you will be very brave not to have a car. I am 15km from my nearest town and tried it for a summer, but a €30+ round-trip to town for shopping or a bus that only ran twice a day soon put that to bed. In Olhao, we don't use our car..... but we are central and walk everywhere (and we still have a car if we need it). Life without your own transport can be very limiting and inconvenient (although the coaches and trains are good and cheap..... if you are near to them) - remember Nazaré itself only has a population of 15,000, so don't expect too much public transport in the countryside. Also remember there are only 3 airports and that, aside from the Algarve, or the Porto-Lisbon axis, public transport can be very hit or miss... a bit like the girl with the curl!. That's why the majority of Portuguese have a car, even though it costs them a much higher proportion of their take-home than in the UK.

So, you might wonder why all these odd folk choose to live in a place that isn't the cheap, sunny, paradise you may have read about. Well, it's about lifestyle and all the things that do make being in Portugal a winner, including the people. Come and try it for as long as you can, so that you can experience it for yourself - and then decide.

Last edited by macliam; Aug 10th 2020 at 11:41 am.
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Old Aug 10th 2020, 12:08 pm
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Default Re: So much choice!

Yes macliam I have to say that compared to another strictly Portugal expat site I have found a lot of negativity on here and wonder why people actually live there. So I am pleased you actually brought that up in your last paragraph.

Whilst we do not want to be looking at it through rose coloured glasses I feel if I’d come across this site before the other one I would have had a very negative view as opposed to a balanced positive/negative view which is what we currently have.

We are not two young people looking to come and live the dream without the odd nightmare. We are 56 and 62 respectively. We would be coming in the winter months initially so that would be a good tester for sure. Also we are not just looking to move so that everything is cheaper. The main reason is we want to be mortgage free in a country that along with possibly baltic winters also offers summers that actually last longer than 4 days. We also want to experience a different lifestyle and culture. I think if we wanted an England abroad we have looked at moving to somewhere like Benidorm.

We are also aware the postal system can be a massive issue with post/parcels etc going astray or taking forever to arrive. My Husband is a big Amazon user and knows he’s going to have to change a few things. Although we’ve been told Amazon Spain or Germany is the way to go albeit with high delivery charges. Other ways round it would be getting whatever we want delivered to friends back home and combining collections with trips back home.

I appreciate your frank and honest opinion as the reason for joining this forum was to see if we could get different perspectives from the other forum. I think we can safely say we’ve achieved that.
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