Diddion

OK Tony, whilst I still can,t see your point, I would be interested to know, from the perspective of pensions and government pensions, where your doubts lie. Can you be more specific on this matter, rather than purely referring to other sources without explanation? For example, what are the commentaries you are referring to, and how might they apply here. I am not getting at you, and I am always happy (well, maybe not happy, but at least prepared!) to be proven wrong

TonyJ1

My specific point, which I have made on this chain, is that what Portugal may consider to be government service pensions may not be what HMRC may consider as government service pensions - some are obviously government service - but some ancillary services are not clear cut. Sometimes there is a mismatch - a lot of mismatches are addressed in the commentaries and how these should be addressed, but some are not. This may give rise to some tax planning opportunities (whether you agree to its fairness or not) - but can also result in hardships - though the hardship side is addressed in internal legislation in Portugal

Red Eric

So - any pointers to where we can find these commentaries and whether any of them touch on items in the published list, Sr António?

Diddion

Like he says! Where are these commentaries, what is their status, and what do they say? A link would also be helpful

TonyJ1

You can get all versions here Tax - OECDand unversity libraries.

Some versions available through the internet

Diddion

Tony - you made an important statement which entirely undermines what I and indeed others consider to be correct, but you seem to be unable to support that statement with specific information. Yes, you have given a link, but please also point where, in that link, lie any bases for your statement.

TonyJ1

You can take it as posted or ignore it. I have stated that the only way to get certainty is to get a tax directive from the tax authority - everything else is opinions, etc even if fully supported. If the tax authority issues a personal ruling, they usually have to stick to it (unless they have made an obvious mistake or the law subsequently changes). All other avenues is that they can be challenged after the fact and the only way to override the tax authority is usually by the courts - and that is a tall order.

I can stick the commentaries here - but all it is are interpretative - my interpretations as valid as others. In any event, under similar circumstances and laws etc - different courts (never mind courts in different countries) come to different conclusions - trace most court cases that go from appeal to appeal

Diddion

Well, Tony, I really can´t say whether your interpretations are worth anything, since you have regrettably failed to provide a single one. I personally find it very interesting that you are either unwilling or unable to substantiate your statement at all. In such a situation one may be tempted to assign one or more of the following reasons for the lack of information:

​​​​Perhaps the person providing the statement does not know what he or she is talking about or the statement cannot be substantiated, or they wish to generate fear and uncertainty and hence drum up more business, or they know that what they have said is rubbish.
Of course, if a full explanation and justification does emerge, we will know that these statements can not apply.

TonyJ1

I am not generating fear or anything of the sort - if somebody wants assurance on how the tax authority will view a particular issue, the only sure way is by requesting a directive - what is wrong with that? Do you have a better way? I could quote say quote British tax cases, or American tax cases,Australian tax cases and so on but that does not mean that it is how the Portuguese tax authority view a particular transaction. Often they follow each other, but not always. The only cases that the Portuguese have to follow, is cases decided in Portugal (even these are limited) and the EU court system

orangeblossom

I either expressed myself badly here or you misunderstood. Sorry if the former and I mislead you all. My pension IS both taxable and taxed in the UK, however it would not be treated as a govenment/public sector pension by the Portuguese, under NHR.

Diddion's advice to put money aside to account for a later drop in income is goog advice, in general, so thanks for giving it. Despite your partial misunderstanding of my situation, after the end of NHR my income would be reduced even if I returned to the UK, bur surely that is true for anyone on NHR. Actually, since I retired early, my USS pension is not a large amount of money. The difference between being on NHR old regime and being taxed as now in UK is about £1000 p.a and before the end of 9 years on NHR, I would start to get state pension in the UK , so the savings would be greater then. However, as I have now posted in a new thread it is a moot point for me as I would apparently fall under the new rules and it would not thus be worth it to me to switch to NHR until I start drawing state pension. Although my tax rate in UK is 20% a switch to 10% would not even save me £500 per annum as the tax free allowance would be lower as discussed in another thread. Since I haven't got other investments that I'd be saving tax on by being NHR it probably wouldn't be worth it tbh, especially as I don't want to make the permanent move right now. I might reconsider once I start getting my state pension too but that's still 3+ years down the line.

Sorry to have inspired a big debate between you guys about the need or not for a ruling of some kind. I'm confident that since the documentation from HMRC in Eric's link states it clearly and a phonecall to one of their technical specialists confirms that the PT do not regard UK university pensions under the University Superanuation Scheme as 'government' , I concur with those who argued that no ruling was necessary. My PT accountant had previously told me that he was sure he knew retired UK university lecturers with NHR status who were not being taxed on those pension but I did not want to believe it without some official confirmation. I asked HMRC because I didn't think it would be easy to get an answer from AT.

smiffy449

Hi,
Looking for advice when filling out my Modelo 3 IRS form this year, for 2019 income.

Normally, as I only receive income in the UK from interest on savings, I complete annexo J (income received from abroad) but this year I will also need to declare a private pension that was paid monthly in 2019.

If I understand it , from earlier in this thread, this pension would attract the allowance of 4104€. Is this correct and would I just need to add the annexo H to the Modelo 3 and enter the annual amount in Euros? Does the allowance automatically get deducted before they apply the tax rate ?

Sorry for so many questions, but want to get it right and to make sure my allowance is applied.

Thanks in advance.

Red Eric

Ys, it is.

No, if the pension's from abroad, that goes on Anexo J as well.

Yes - you declare the gross amount, they do all the workings out.

Assuming you've been quoting your NIF for purchases / expenditures, you'll get whatever qualifies in deductions from those automatically taken off your bill too.

smiffy449

Thanks very much Red Eric,

I think I was mixing up annexo H with categoria H. I think it's right that I enter the amount in annexo J under categoria H and the allowance will be deducted automatically?

Annexo H is completed If I want to receive benefits etc?.

I always enter my NIF number under the eFactura, so if I'm due reductions there the system will calculate automatically too?

Thanks for your help.

Red Eric

You're very welcome - glad to be of assistance

That's right on the annexes / categories, yes.

And yes, if you do end up owing anything after the initial allowance has been deducted and tax calculated on the rest according to the scales etc posted earlier on this thread, the deductions you can see on your e-fatura page, which keeps a running tally for you, will automatically come off that.

You know you might have a little bit of work to do on the e-faturas if you want to be absolutely sure that you're being credited with everything, don't you? Not much - just a couple of things to look out for on pending items and some health expenditures.

Pilou

Hi Tony,

Yes, the jurisprudence on tax treaties is very important! As a former tax lawyer, this was more important than the tax treaty itself! I spend half my life reading tax treaties. Every day new jurisprudence was on my desk .......
But now, as a "normal" person it is very difficult to find the comments and jurisprudence. Now I am only able to find the most important jurisprudence. The comments of both governments before a new tax treaty are also very important.

Until 1990 most tax treaties were based on the OECD model. As of 1990 they are still based on the OECD model but have here and there "small" differences ...