SgtTroy

I was sarcastic 😎
And, Portuguese bureaucracy aside, I have zero sympathy to anyone who did not register when the process was easier, or who waited till the last few days for unknown reasons.
Brexit did change a lot of things, almost all of which were well known in advance.

Offtopic - further down our street the asphalt next to the bins was eroding slowly, forming a small but nevertheless annoying pothole. At some point we called the Camara, ready for a lengthy debate, rejection, appeal, etc...in total a good couple of months or so to no avail, as we saw it, based on past UK experience with various Kent councils.
The conversation lasted less than two minutes and within a week the pothole was fixed.
So much for the useless Portuguese bureaucracy. We wept.

Red Eric

Well they may not necessarily have wilfully chosen not to register.

Unlikely though it might seem to many, there could be some people who were completely unaware of the requirement at the time they moved. I know I was, and remained in blissful ignorance for some long time afterwards. I didn't overlook any of my other obligations, though - and oddly, the lack of a residence certificate was absolutely no impediment to any of that.

There was also all the Covid stuff going on making things difficult or impossible for anybody who arrived from late 2019 onwards but not yet in breach of their obligation to register presence. And there were people who were flat refused or given incorrect information if they did get to try.

The failure to register back in the day was actually not equivalent to overstaying, in any case. It is a much more minor affair, treated and punished (if at all) as an administrative failure.

SgtTroy

The failure to register is still an administrative matter for EU citizens.
For third country citizens that failure is a violation of the law.
And ignorance of the law has never been accepted as a valid excuse 😎

Red Eric

For UK citizens, there is ample official acknowledgement that the legal position hasn't changed with regard to people resident prior to Brexit.

I'm surprised you haven't come across any of it.

SgtTroy

I haven't indeed, but that's maybe because I do not tend to look for loopholes, but prefer to follow the rules, as I was brought up to believe that the rules should be followed and that I am not a divine exception.

I do not understand the meaning of "the legal position hasn't changed with regard to people resident prior to Brexit."
If anyone was a resident prior to Brexit, but failed to obtain a certificate (which was a simple administrative act), then it is really difficult to imagine how that could have remained unnoticed by the authorities and in everyday life, and how they could now prove their residence.
Perhaps SNS did not ask for residence certificate or did not update their database if no certificate was presented upon the initial registration?
Or IMT also did not ask for a residence certificate when exchanging the driver's licence?
Or the banks have failed to do the regular update regarding the residence and the other documentation of their client?
Or the annual tax return was nevertheless submitted as a non-resident and AT still has on its records that the person is non-resident?
Or the person never left Portugal after Brexit?
Or HMRC/UK banks were never informed that the person has changed his tax residence? etc, etc

In reality it might be possible that prior to June 2016 someone might have missed his registration for one reason or another, and might have got away even with the administrative fine.
However, between July 2016 and December 2020 there was so much info and so much exposure regarding those matters, that I really do not see how anyone might have failed to register by 31 December 2020.

Imho, the issue with the handful of cases who might not have registered their residence in Portugal, despite meeting the criteria before Brexit, is that they equally did not notify HMRC, Electoral roll, NHS, UK banks, etc that they have left the UK, and that, in turn, might be because they were spending a good amount of time in both countries, and were not able to figure out which status suits them better. Again, no sympathy

Red Eric

This has nothing to do with loopholes or divine exceptions - it's matters of fact and a bit of awareness that maybe not everybody is equally well-equipped when it comes to knowing about or acquiring information regarding one's rights and obligations.

The protected status of people resident in Portugal prior to Brexit is not bestowed upon them by the fact of their holding any document. That is not the case in all of the member states, some of which opted for a regime which insists upon the obtaining of a document in order to obtain the new status.

The obtaining of the initial certificate of residence prior to Brexit was not in itself proof of anything other than that the holder had requested its issue. It doesn't prove residence - the holder could have requested it 3 months after arrival and immediately disappeared from the country for 4 years, then return, bearing the still-valid certificate but it doesn't constitute proof that he's been residing here continuously all that time. The other - permanent resident - document, issued on request by SEF on the expiry of the CRUE, was never obligatory. You can't be fined or otherwise sanctioned for not holding one, so it can't be demanded of anyone as though nothing else will do in any circumstance. You could, therefore, have held a 5 year certificate, not acquired a permanent resident card and be perfectly compliant with all the rules and considered legitimately resident. It is the fact of your presence that gives you the permanent resident status after 5 years, as opposed to any document.

Likewise with the new Brexit-induced document. It isn't compulsory to apply for it and you can't be sanctioned or turfed out for not having it. We on here all know how unwise it would be not to, naturally, and how awkward it could make things travel-wise etc but our status as residents doesn't depend upon it. That's what I mean by "the legal position hasn't changed with regard to people resident prior to Brexit".


Well, yes. Those bodies didn't demand to see a certificate of registration of residence until fairly recently, if at all. As far as I know, the tax authority still doesn't and if you tell them you're resident they'll take your word for it and flag you as such. They only ask you for proof of address, I think - certainly surprised me when it was discussed on here with regard to NHR applications in recent times. As for the SNS, I got enrolled before I had a residence document and they never asked to see one subsequently. The bank, I'm fairly sure also only wanted ID, which can be a passport, and proof of address.

LOL - might have got away with the fine! To the best of my knowledge no effort whatsoever is put into detecting EU citizens who reside here but have failed to register. It's never, ever come up on any of the forums I've followed and I'm sure it would have been discussed had it happened, and it's never been in the news that anybody's been out and about checking up on people or that x number have been fined for non-compliance. I don't even know who would be charged with doing the checking or how they'd go about it - if it's the SEF, they haven't got the boots on the ground for much of it.


Yep, to you and me that seems perfectly reasonable on the surface. However, both here and in the UK, I expect there are people who are just oblivious to this kind of stuff for whatever reason. A lot of people don't keep up with news of any sort, for example. Maybe some who also don't do the internet. Or those who do but can't sort the wheat from the chaff - we see plenty of those on here. Types who can't see what sources are reliable or authoritative. Where to go to get good, current, concise explanations of things in English, if indeed they exist. On here, you can see how things descend into a chaotic babble of contradictory "info" at times, with everybody certain they're right - and we're supposed to be interested and informed. Then there's people who might have difficulties of some sort, either in absorbing info or in communication.

I'm probably just a bit more tolerant of the fact that some people may not realise one thing or another, without attributing it to deliberately flaunting the law or taking advantage in some way, without any evidence of that. A little anecdote for you - there was a poster who came on here a while back, shocked and dismayed because he'd been copped by the AT for not filing tax returns in the previous 3 years. He was genuinely distressed, having incorrectly assumed that pensions arising in the UK would be taxed by the UK, although in fact he wasn't paying any UK tax because the amount was below the personal allowance. He stressed that he always tried to act in accordance with the rules.

Things just escape people sometimes.

Anyway, we're a long way from the opening post, which was discussing the situation with people who most definitely do have residence documents.

GrahamF

Yes, a bit off topic I know but, on visit to Finances, we were verbally advised not to bother with tax returns unless situation changes and we have taxable income in Portugal. My wife (in her 70s) is a citizen and not having worked in Portugal has never submitted a return or been asked to.

Back to immigration. During the runup to Brexit, many liveaboard boat owners obtained 5 year temporary residence using Lagos (and other marinas) as an address. Most disappeared from the scene thinking they now had free movement in sailing in transit to/from Portugal, the same appears to have happened with some holiday property owners. Both groups never had any intention of settling and I suspect they will be in for a nasty shock when temporary needs renewing.