bazzer70

hello everybody!
We have just returned from our drive through Portugal, staying in Porto, Lisbon, Lagos, Villamoura and briefly Faro. Our purpose was to have a break and also to recce the possibility of a permanent move to Portugal but no decisions have been made yet.
We looked at a few properties and decided unless you are happy to be away from the coast then asking prices are steep but of course this is just an impression and who can really tell what is a good price or not in such a short time? Our thoughts therefore were that we really need to rent for possibly as long as a year to really suss things out. Everybody we spoke to said we had no chance of renting for a year (agents) but winter lets are numerous. Would 5 months be long enough to find the perfect home?
Talking prices... restaurants on the whole were pretty good value for the quality received. We spent a lot of time in hotels but also a week in Lagos in a self-catering apartment so did the supermarket visits. Again this is not definitive from just one weeks experience of supermarkets but we did think prices were steep in general - not as good value as we were led to believe anyway.
Super Bock or Sagres? I really thought the Bock was very tasty but unless I had unrinsed glasses on both occasions I tried the Sagres then I found it to have a definite chemical taste!
Wine - Apart from Mateus Rose I had never drank Portuguese wine but we were both impressed with the reds and whites that we tried and they all seemed to be really good value too.
Portugal certainly is very beautiful and the people very friendly. We noticed that it seemed to only be the older locals who took any notice of the very numerous beggars on the streets and gave them money or food. When we asked if these beggars were genuine we were informed that like everywhere else there are very many chancers who do spoil it for the genuinely needy. Perhaps the older locals are able to see who is genuine? It was awful being accosted so often and very often at your table when having a restaurant meal - you just cannot give to everyone that tries their luck. Is there no state aid for these people? Maybe we just were aware but there did seem to be an awful lot of them.
Parking - we never did work out the rules here - often we'd find a spot where loads of other cars were parked and when we asked passers-by if we could park there we were told categorically NO - because there wasn't a sign that specifically designates the area as a place where you can park?! rather than a sign that states NO PARKING.
We learned some Portuguese before the trip and the locals genuinely seemed to appreciate our efforts and took great delight in helping us to expand our vocab.
just some ramblings before I post some more questions!
Bazzer

ouriquejan

Glad you had a good time.

You will be able to get a years rental, depending on where you want to go. Using estate agents would be a waste of time, as they will normally only have holiday rentals on their books. Look casasapo.pt. I'm sure there are other sites.

Surprised you found the supermarkets on a par. Although we normally only buy local stuff, avoiding foreign foods. Cheese, yes, that can be expensive and frozen stuff. But the butchery department? Not a hope could I buy a pork loin or tenderloin for even double the price in England.

You will normally only get "beggers" in touristy areas. Not since one since we moved to the Alentejo.

Best to wipe the bottle top and drink straight from the bottle - prefer Sagres myself, but happy to drink Superbock.

toots sweet

Just spent 3 months last winter looking for property and found very little to suit us. Too big,too small,too much land, too little,too much work to do etc etc. As for prices,sellers are picking up on the upturn in property searches. One house we viewed ,the price went up €15000 euros the next week. I think the locals are getting hyped up by the estate agents and are hoping to get way over the odds for a pretty mediocre property.
However for all that we are returning next winter to do the same!
Gotta love Portugal !!!
PS Thumbs up for Superbock...

EMR

Price movements in recent years for identical 2 bed apartments built 15 years ago in Albufeira.
Bottom of the market E125k, rose to the 150s two years ago now heading towards 190k for a good one.
Agents queuing up to get them on their books.
This is with the reduction in British and Irish buyers..
Has there been an over correction, possibly ?

mfesharne

Getting a long term/12 month rental on the Algarve would probably be difficult & expensive but in the central/northern zones it'd be relatively easy & inexpensive.

In those areas, you'd get a comfortable 1 bedroom place with air con, central heating, good wifi for about €300-400 per month plus services.

Pistolpete2

We got back from a winter let in the Tavira area in March and are mulling over the idea of leaving the Uk permanently for Portugal in March 2020 but can't get our heads around some of the NHR tax issues and record-keeping therefor where we have investment income mostly from the US but also from the UK and misc income from 'tax havens'. Might go to Eurofinesco for proper advice.

We used Lidl and the municipal market in Tavira for most of our shopping (we bought a lot of fish once we got a hang of ordering and asking for cleaning/scaling at the latter), aside from local mini-marts and thought the overall experience much cheaper than the UK, particularly as it was winter. We LOVE Alentejo red wines and their cost - about a quarter of a comparable in the UK. We found a cafe/bar which stocked the Sagres Bohemia range in Tavira (Midas) at reasonable cost so had a choice of wheat beer and pale ale on top of the usual. The local moonshine Figo was also enjoyed as and when. We encountered no begging in the Tavira area this time around - just once before somebody came into a restaurant offering something. We like the easy access to Faro Airport and to Spain as needed and will continue to look in that area as the scenery and Ria Formosa is to our taste. Public transport in general was fine. If we do settle, we think we would still need an escape route for the cold in Jan/Feb and the heat in July/August so we are working on those concepts as part of the overall GO!

GeniB

Well Bazzer I can only tell you about our experience..

We came here end of 2010.. We had stayed in rentals to test the waters twice. Both times we brought our dog with us and stayed in Villa's that were dog friendly. We were looking for a villa to buy ,but preferable one to rent for 6 months so like you ,we could find the area we wanted to live in first. I highly recommend doing this

Actually it WAS an Estate Agent who put us on to our lovely landlady in the end. She had dogs of her own and was happy to rent her gorgeous villa to us for six months, She and her new partner had just decided they wanted to live in his apartment in Lagos town centre So don't be frightened to ask.. They may not have rentals on their books, but they do know an awful lot of ex clients who may be able to help you.Owners don't usually like to rent for longer than six months ,as they get more for the summer months. Plus the law has now changed and they pay more tax on long term rentals
I'm surprised that you think the supermarkets are expensive ? There is a pretty good range..From Apolonia at the top end.. to Lidl and Aldi at the other. Do remember that buying exclusively English or British goods will often cost you much more....Try the local equivalent brands. Avoid goods imported from long distances. Asparagus from Peru etc.Cheese from UK etc
Sargres beer taste like soap to me and OH...Super Bock is ok.. But I much prefer the Belgian beers... Do miss my raspberry and cherry beers.
Beggars are usually in and around tourist area's in the summer months .. Lagos (where we are ) is pretty much free until then . Noticed a lot of rather scruffy people of late..But that is everywhere these days.
Lagos has a soup kitchen for the genuine people in need. Plus many charities to provide clothes etc. Ex-Pats support many of them along with the fire services.. We have a small problem with some Gypsy families right now. Again that is normal. for the Algarve a traditional place for them to come .
As to parking. If it looks like a parking area,park. If its outside someone's home maybe think twice. Always check for the yellow lines ,even if faded they count..They aren't big on charging you to park either.Just be considerate.
My YD is an Estate Agent here and indeed prices have shot up in the last 12 months.. A lot due to the extensive advertising Portugal has got in that time for its special. schemes. The NHR scheme and the Golden Visa scheme.. The former aimed at retirees which would allow them to pay no tax for ten yrs after they move to Portugal..This has definitely appealed to the French who do pay very high tax's. Swedish too who have a very weird tax system thats quite punitive The Dutch are vehemently against it. so we were not allowed to take advantage ( we get our pensions from there) They are fighting it in the EU courts so it may not last much longer.
All this attention means there are now far more people going after far fewer properties. Estate Agents don't chase properties ,or push clients. Clients decide what they want for their properties... and surprise surprise its mostly top dollar.. We know this as we 'pursued ' the villa we have now bought for 5yrs... It was way out of our league when we first rented and started looking. in 2005.. Looked again the next time we rented in 2007 it hadn't moved a jot. When we moved permanently in 2010 it had dropped by 300,000 euro's Still in the hefty price bracket...The owner was a very unpleasant woman.. We had asked to view a house behind hers with our Estate Agent. It was identical but at a much lower/reasonable price. Our Agent told us the house we liked (Unpleasant woman) was still for sale and had come down another 150,000 to bring it in line with the house we were looking at..We asked if we could go and see it. Estate Agent was not thrilled. but arranged it. This woman harangued her almost from the moment she set foot in the house. It was very embarrassing. Clearly she blamed the agent for not getting the outrageous sum she had wanted for her house..Turned out she was getting an acrimonious divorce and was determined she would get pre. financial crisis price for it. Utter nonsense of course. .
To cut this long story short.. The court had run out of patience and she had to sell. We got it at the market price, paying for the furniture as well . When we moved in.. she had cleared it of everything.!! Not your everyday experience...But every one is different... Success

EMR

We are ping pong Brits but unlike you its only the heat and crowds of the summer we avoid.
A Portuguese winter equates to an early spring in the UK.
I don, think I have ever worn shorts Dec -May in the UK.
Agree that using local markers and avoiding international brands in supermarkets will mean that the costs of foods etc is lower than the UK.
We are fortunate in that we are able to live comfortably in an open plan villa for the winter with 90% of the time using traditional wood fire for heat...
Are prices close to or at their peak who knows.
If I did I would be a sqillionaire by now.

bazzer70

Thanks all for your comments....
We also drove through both Spain and France before returning the England. I had for many many years been thinking that France was going to be where I bought my place in the Sun - having spent many very happy holidays in various parts. I have never considered Spain and still don't feel I will.
Property in France seems to be hugely more attractive in terms of variety and what you actually get for your money. Admittedly we did find everyday prices in France to be considerably higher than Portugal and the tax implications are certainly not as favourable.....
BUT
Thinking of our lifestyle etc it will be many years before these considerations are offset buy any tax we might not be liable for in Portugal should we choose Portugal over France.
What do you feel?
Bazzer

Pistolpete2

When we wintered in Portugal 2017/18 we had arrived after spending a couple of months in a monthly rental in Brittany.

We are beer, cider and wine drinkers and found Brittany well served in terms of pubs (with good food) because of excellent/outstanding local products BUT beer is way more expensive than Portugal BUT is a superior product in our view - better taste and more body if from the local breweries such as Coreff.

We thought the local produce (Huelva in Spain is a local growing area as well) available in Tavira stacked up well against the weekly markets in Brittany in terms of quality and price but the French go in for more rotisserie items - France is much more expensive than the Algarve for food and wine. We thought Carrefour/Leclerc France are much more expensive than Continente or Lidl Tavira Portugal for a typical shop. The butcher section at Tavira Municipal Market is outstanding for meat and game - chicken (our staple meat) is FAR cheaper in Portugal than France for comparable. At Christmas we almost fell over when we found fresh whole Portuguese duck (no head) at Lidl for about 2 euros a kilo.

However, France has restaurant meal plans/formules that can offer three courses and incl wine and coffee which obviously can stack up very well for quality and price against the prato do dias and add-on starter and dessert unless one's Portuguese restaurant offers a package of soup/bread/main/wine/fruit/dessert/coffee/port as some do off-season. Both France and Portugal are basically service compris.

No question, French dining and saucing is far more varied than the fairly typical piece of meat/fish on a plate with a boiled potato and side veg or salad on offer in Portugal but there are some Portuguese national dishes that are outstanding.

In the Algarve and Brittany we thought the locals equally obliging in terms of speaking English, as required. We thought both public transport systems met our needs well though French rolling-stock is far more modern than typical Algarve rail and senior citizen discounts in Portugal make rail travel cheap. Algarve medical was more accessible than the French equivalent. One should note that where we were near Tavira, the largest group of foreign (part-time?) residents by far was French.

SO, for us, we would in addition compare year-round weather in our chosen locales which would both be historic (rather than mainly touristy) atmospheres. I can't get my head around overall French tax at all for my purposes so France is off the table for that reason alone. The way we assemble cost of living for our particular lifestyle, Portugal overall wins there quite easily and Portugal is up there as a world-leader in the peaceful stakes.

At my age, I'm not going to break-into either language sufficiently to integrate properly so I don't think that would sway things for me much either way, in spite of having school-age French as needed.

It's early days for us, though I've been looking at French property for the longest while, so I can't really speak to like-to-like property prices though I do find Portuguese supply a bit limited as we are not fixer-uppers. We would NOT want a car (as is the case here in the UK) so that does dictate search areas in both countries.