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Proving UK *Residency* when Registering for Residency in Portugal?

Proving UK *Residency* when Registering for Residency in Portugal?

Old Feb 9th 2020, 2:30 pm
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Default Re: Proving UK *Residency* when Registering for Residency in Portugal?

Originally Posted by Cortiz View Post
I gotta say, guys, that while I very much appreciate the time and effort involved in these replies, I understand some of Euroguy's frustrations. I came here for practical advice about my particular situation, but sometimes I feel like the that is being swept aside in order to make clarifications about the finer points of the Portuguese laws that aren't really that relevant to what I need to actually do.

So, @Richard Henshall - Basically you main point is that being a UK citizen with a US address, I will need to prove my US address and my UK identity.

@
mfesharne - I understand that anyone can get an NIF number but I don't understand why my two options are incorrect: "(fiscal representative to get NIF on upcoming trip, then change the address on it once I've actually moved to Portugal and have an address, then get residency. OR do both once I've actually moved there." Are you saying 3rd option: I do not even have to be physically present in Portugal to get the number, and can get it through a fiscal rep once I have returned to the US?
More precisely you may be able to get a NIB number (as opposed to a NIF number) from outside Portugal & the B stands for 'Banco' & allows you to open a bank account etc but in truth, you don't really need either until you're here so it's probably not worth the effort.

As to whether you'll need a FR or not if you have a UK passport but a non EUMS address............... That depends largely on the AVBS factor.

We have UK passports & provided a South African address & were not required to have a FR but I do know of others that have been required to have a FR.

The same can be said of registering residency here. Some Camaras insist on a 3 month wait whilst some in the greater Lisbon area have been issung them to people within a day or two of arrival & to hotel & air bnb addreses.

Frankly, it's a complete lottery.

Last edited by mfesharne; Feb 9th 2020 at 3:16 pm.
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Old Feb 9th 2020, 2:35 pm
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Default Re: Proving UK *Residency* when Registering for Residency in Portugal?

Originally Posted by Rosemary View Post
Note to members:-

If a member is encouraging others to break the law or telling them of a way around the legal process please will you report their post. When reporting will you please state clearly what the law is or what you believe it to be on that particular subject because Moderators and Super Moderators will possibly not be aware.

Thanking you in advance for you assistance.

Rosemary
Rosemary:

Thank you for looking after us so well.

For future reference the relevant law I was referring to states:Article 348a



1. Any person who falsely declares or attests to public authority or an official in the exercise of his or her identity, state or other capacity to which the law attributes legal effects, whether own or others, shall be punished with imprisonment for up to one year or with a fine if a more serious penalty does not fall under another legal provision.


2 - If the statements are intended to be recorded in an authentic document, the agent is punished with imprisonment for up to two years or with a fine.

Article 27

1 - It is punishable as an accomplice who intentionally and in any way give material or moral aid to the practice by another of a wilful act.


2 - It is applicable to the accomplice the penalty set for the author, especially attenuated.

So there you go folks, what you do is your choice but if you advise someone else to do it and they do, you could leave yourself open to a 1 year jail term

this little snippet in the PT immigration acts.

1 - The residence permit is cancelled whenever:

a) Its holder has been the subject of an expulsion decision from national territory; or

b) The residence permit has been granted on the basis of false or misleading statements, false or falsified documents, or through the use of fraudulent means; or

c) In relation to its holder, there are serious reasons to believe that he committed serious criminal acts or there are real indications that he intends to commit such acts, namely in the territory of the European Union; or

d) For reasons of public order or security.








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Old Feb 27th 2020, 5:06 pm
  #63  
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Default Re: Proving UK *Residency* when Registering for Residency in Portugal?

Originally Posted by mfesharne View Post
More precisely you may be able to get a NIB number (as opposed to a NIF number) from outside Portugal & the B stands for 'Banco' & allows you to open a bank account etc but in truth, you don't really need either until you're here so it's probably not worth the effort.

As to whether you'll need a FR or not if you have a UK passport but a non EUMS address............... That depends largely on the AVBS factor.

We have UK passports & provided a South African address & were not required to have a FR but I do know of others that have been required to have a FR.

The same can be said of registering residency here. Some Camaras insist on a 3 month wait whilst some in the greater Lisbon area have been issung them to people within a day or two of arrival & to hotel & air bnb addreses.

Frankly, it's a complete lottery.
I went to a camara in the Algarve today to inquire about the NIF. As predicted, they would not accept a US address with a UK passport. The guy did say, however, that just having some recent-ish proof of a UK address would work. Utility bill, bank statement, drivers license etc. This was even after we told him that our tax residence was the US. He was basically saying that they turn a blind eye and informally bend the rules, that the UK address thing is a formality.

One troubling thing he said was that if we instead do Plan B - using our US address and having a FR - we risk waiting 12 months or more to get our residency document. This is, he said, because as non-EU/UK residents our application would go through a foreign services department and it takes longer. This is regardless of our UK citizenship. I'm hoping this was incorrect information - he is, after all, a tax services guy not a residency one. Does anyone have any knowledge or experience who can confirm or deny?

If he's correct, my next question is how would this impact the Dec. 2020 transition period deadline to become a resident? I'm again assuming that being physically present and having applied for residency would be sufficient, rather than actually having to have the document in hand by then?

mfesharne What is the AVBS factor?
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Old Feb 27th 2020, 5:23 pm
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Default Re: Proving UK *Residency* when Registering for Residency in Portugal?

Originally Posted by Cortiz View Post
I went to a camara in the Algarve today to inquire about the NIF. As predicted, they would not accept a US address with a UK passport. The guy did say, however, that just having some recent-ish proof of a UK address would work. Utility bill, bank statement, drivers license etc. This was even after we told him that our tax residence was the US. He was basically saying that they turn a blind eye and informally bend the rules, that the UK address thing is a formality.

One troubling thing he said was that if we instead do Plan B - using our US address and having a FR - we risk waiting 12 months or more to get our residency document. This is, he said, because as non-EU/UK residents our application would go through a foreign services department and it takes longer. This is regardless of our UK citizenship. I'm hoping this was incorrect information - he is, after all, a tax services guy not a residency one. Does anyone have any knowledge or experience who can confirm or deny?

If he's correct, my next question is how would this impact the Dec. 2020 transition period deadline to become a resident? I'm again assuming that being physically present and having applied for residency would be sufficient, rather than actually having to have the document in hand by then?

mfesharne What is the AVBS factor?
Seriously !!! You expect tax man to give you correct immigration advice?
You might as well ask barista in Costa !!!

https://europa.eu/youreurope/citizen...l/index_en.htm
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Old Feb 27th 2020, 6:46 pm
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Default Re: Proving UK *Residency* when Registering for Residency in Portugal?

Originally Posted by Cortiz View Post
I went to a camara in the Algarve today to inquire about the NIF. As predicted, they would not accept a US address with a UK passport. The guy did say, however, that just having some recent-ish proof of a UK address would work. Utility bill, bank statement, drivers license etc. This was even after we told him that our tax residence was the US. He was basically saying that they turn a blind eye and informally bend the rules, that the UK address thing is a formality.

One troubling thing he said was that if we instead do Plan B - using our US address and having a FR - we risk waiting 12 months or more to get our residency document. This is, he said, because as non-EU/UK residents our application would go through a foreign services department and it takes longer. This is regardless of our UK citizenship. I'm hoping this was incorrect information - he is, after all, a tax services guy not a residency one. Does anyone have any knowledge or experience who can confirm or deny?

If he's correct, my next question is how would this impact the Dec. 2020 transition period deadline to become a resident? I'm again assuming that being physically present and having applied for residency would be sufficient, rather than actually having to have the document in hand by then?

mfesharne What is the AVBS factor?
AVBS = Acute Variable Bureaucracy Syndrome

The NIF is issued by the tax authority (AT). The Certificate of Registration of Residency is issued by the local Câmara, to whom this job has been devolved by SEF. There is no overlap, so an employee of one government department has no need to understand the rules that would be applied by another.
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Old Feb 28th 2020, 6:37 am
  #66  
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Default Re: Proving UK *Residency* when Registering for Residency in Portugal?

AVBS is THE reason why, on this and other forums, you will find multiple, conflicting beurocratic procedures reported for just about every possible administrative task.

I blelieve it was first coined by mfesharne in 2020, though I could be wrong. However, it is certain to enter the official lexicon
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Old Mar 8th 2020, 10:03 pm
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Default Re: Proving UK *Residency* when Registering for Residency in Portugal?

Originally Posted by EU.flag View Post
Seriously !!! You expect tax man to give you correct immigration advice?
You might as well ask barista in Costa !!!

https://europa.eu/youreurope/citizen...l/index_en.htm
No, I didn't "expect" anything. I was give this information by a government official who seemed to know what he was talking about, and appeared to speak authoritatively. It sounded inaccurate to me, which is why I posted about it here. The link you sent does not address my specific situation.

@RichardHenshall, so in other words he was simply wrong?
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Old Mar 8th 2020, 10:22 pm
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Default Re: Proving UK *Residency* when Registering for Residency in Portugal?

Originally Posted by Cortiz View Post
... @RichardHenshall, so in other words he was simply wrong?
I believe so. Your rights to exercise freedom of movement within the EU rest on your country of nationality not your country of residency. I suspect, however, that his estimate of the timescale may be more reasonable for a third country national (coming from the USA).
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