NSG666

We are looking for a 12 month rental property that will comply with D7 visa requirements and checking Idealista / Imovirtual etc daily (crikey there is some overpriced dross!). As we have a dog it's an added difficulty confirmed by having read several threads on here. Ideally we'll find one advertised by an agent but there are some suitable looking properties being offered by private advertisers.

I understand that many of the private advertisers want to stay under the tax radar and not want rental contracts and there will no doubt be some that are just downright dodgy. If we found a property being offered privately by a willing landlord, can a lawyer be appointed to check out ownership etc along with the conditions of the contract?

Alan PT

I think you'd be wasting your time trying to rent from a private Portuguese advertiser. You'll already be more hassle than most private advertisers want, being a foreigner with no IRS records to check and no Portuguese guarantor. Trying to get lawyers involved to check things makes it even less likely to happen

You might get lucky and find a British owner willing to consider a long rental, that would be more likely to work out as a private deal. 12 months isn't a great period to be looking for, it's too long for people who want to do short rentals, too short for people who want long term rentals. Consider taking a 2 year contract - you don't have to stay the full 2 years if you don't want to, as there are some early termination rights

You might find some contracts with crazy clauses - we signed one which said we were liable for any problems with the electricity or plumbing. We didn't like it, but it wasn't easy to find somewhere... We had a guy helping us who said "Well, I doubt it's actually enforceable, but if it worries you, just pay EDP a few euro a month more and they will cover you for any problems"

NSG666

Thanks Alan. Your points are taken on board. I figure that if I were to contact a private advertiser and they were not interested I'd be no worse off than I am now but if they were not scared off how would you suggest I proceed to make sure I'm not giving money to a con artist? As an example, I've seen a property on a Brit run web-site but I don't know what nationality the owners are, they want advance rent and security deposit of 3,500 + rent one month in advance. If we got to the stage where we wanted to proceed, how could we make sure all was in order, give some security to the deposit and get the contract checked?
As a matter of interest, is it any safer to go through an agent, do they carry out checks or do you still need to go over everything in detail?
Thanks again.

Alan PT

The classic scam is to advertise a property below market value and ask for a deposit in advance but in this case generally there won't actually be a property available to view, so actually seeing the place, especially if an agent shows you, gives some peace of mind. It's a bit safer with an agent, because they will tend to be more familiar with the scams and the scammers, even if they don't do formal checks (remember, they want to be paid!)

If people want to do everything remotely, that might be a warning sign, unless you are really convinced about the reason. With our place, after viewing, we got the contract to review (asked for some changes, which they just said No to...) then had a big meeting with the owner at her work (she was a lawyer at Galp) - her, the agent, our guy and us. During the meeting we reviewed everything, signed, sent the money and got the keys (the agent, who had been holding the keys for viewings, gave them direct to us, so we knew they were the right keys). Of course I'm sure that there are crooked agents out there too, but I'd say that much more rare, especially if it's a bigger agency.

Unfortunately paying a big deposit is relatively normal. It's because owners can't see your IRS receipts and because you don't have a guarantor, so they demand the deposit to compensate for the additional risk (and also, because they can...). Paying 2 or 3 months up front in addition to deposit is expected and we actually had to agree to pay six months up front - we were not keen to do it, but it was really hard finding a reasonable place within our budget, everything was being rented instantly. I think things improved a bit now but in Lisbon at the time, you checked your Idealista alerts and phoned instantly - if you left it until the end of the day they probably had 20 people lined up to view already!

You could always try contacting some private ads and see how you get on, see if things "smell right" or not, I was just warning that it may have a low probability of success, so you might be better investing your time in following up on the easier prospects quickly. If you are really concerned then you could always employ a property finder or agent to help you. That's effectively what we had (but I can't give you an idea of cost, as my new employer was good enough to provide it). He wasn't perfect, but he did help in contacting a few Portuguese owners (even though we went with an agency one in the end) and in giving us some advice on neighbourhoods etc

Loafing Along

If you can manage it best way to go about it is a short visit to the prospective area you are looking at - book an AirBnb or similar and then "work" the area during your stay. We took a six week break and even then only managed to see three properties but it was well-worth it as we left with a contract in our hands knwoing we had a suitable place to move into , six years later still here.

NSG666

Thanks Alan and Loafing Along

Rambling archer

Our arrangement for a six month rental (extendable if needed) was done with the help of the local estate agent who was helping us search for a property to buy ... he had a contact who agreed to a private arrangement direct between us and him - the owner of the rental property - and since we needed a bona fide contract for our residency application, the rental owner did that with the help of his lawyer, and we and the owners signed the contract in front of a notary in the nearby town - all done to everyone's satisfaction! You realise that a formal contract involves the owner of the rental in paying taxes on his profits and declaring having a property under a rental scheme? Under the table jobs will not do for SEF/Residency visas.

NSG666

Yes I realise that and sorry I could have been clearer in my first post - in my head I was trying to show that I knew that, with our various requirements, I was looking for a needle in a haystack via the private adverts.

Since first posting I did find a useful article on lease contracts, what should be in them, how the advance rental and security deposit work, how the landord should register it on the fincas website etc.

SgtTroy

I wouldn't go for any contract that is not properly formalized. Any savings far outweigh the risks.

When we purchased our house, we were told that the traditional way of doing things here was to leave the 10% deposit with the seller upon signing of the preliminary contract.
We didn't agree to this as it would have been too much of a risk, so I said either the deposit stays with the notary until completion, or we walk out.
The seller reluctantly agreed.

The above is an example of protecting oneself, no matter what the tradition says, or how tempting potential savings may be.

riv

Well when ideally do you want your tenancy to start and approx how much to pay ? And where ish ?

I found a v short term ( one month ) 2 bed flat off season ( April ) four years ago in Manta Rota ( a seaside E Algarve place, basically offering a v good beach and a couple of good restaurants at reasonable prices ) . From memory it was Euros 800 or 850 for the month - set to include ALL bills, including decent wifi and Netflix.

This was through an Agent local to Manta Rota. I thought it was a v reasonable deal and especially liked not having to deal with council tax and utilities separately.

I didn't have the dog complication - and can see why landlords would not be keen, esp. in an apartment. You might have more luck with a small house with a yard or garden ?

I certainly think you would be advised to go through an Agent, rather than dealing with private individuals : the latter may seem ( or even be ) a bit cheaper, but there are more things that can go wrong, not least simple misunderstandings in either or both directions.

At this time of the year private individuals are going to want the summer months market .

To sum up I would say decide on your preferred area/s and check out the offerings on websites of Agents local to those areas. Maybe see if you can get a month's tenancy ( or three ?) for starters with an option to extend to a whole year if you first weeks / months go well.

liveaboard

I've been a residential landlord for 25 years. I can't count the number of tenants I've had.
I've rarely used agents. I don't like to pay anyone to do things I can do myself.

So, a landlord / tenant relationship is a relationship. It starts with trust.
I also ask my tenants to hand over a large deposit and first month rent. But how to gain that trust when we've just met?

One thing I do is ask to see their passport, and when they hand over theirs, I hand them mine to look at too.
Identity verification is the first step, but it's odd how no tenant EVER asks to see the landlord's documents. Agents do of course.

Ask for references; previous tenants. The landlord may want references from previous landlords from you, this is only reasonable.

For the prospective tenant in Portugal, there is the difficulty that the legal system is notoriously difficult when it comes to small contracts. So, take a picture of the landlord. Go knock on doors.
Meet the neighbors, think of a relevant question or two. Is that restaurant any good, is the bar at the corner loud at night, was the last tenant of apartment x happy with the place, do you know if the person in this picture is the owner?
If you don't want to do that, you'd better pay an agent.

Google their email address in quotes. sometimes that gets you something.

These simple checks are just due diligence.

I had a call from the UK once, landlord checking on one of my ex-tenants who had given me as a reference. I told him yes, he's a good tenant.
I could tell the man had doubts; how could he know I was really a previous landlord and not a friend set up to pretend?
"Did he leave the place perfectly clean?" he asked me.
"Well, no. He thought he did, every tenant thinks the place is perfectly clean when they leave, but they never are." I told him, and he laughed because it's true.
And that's how we both knew we were real.