Johnboyuk

There have been a number of comments on this forum about Portugal being akin to a Third World Country. What people must remember is that Portugal only became a democracy in 1976 and prior to that, they were a right-leaning dictatorship. I was a young marine engineer working in Lisbon in 1974 when they had the 'Carnation Revolution' (named so because no shots were fired and the public put carnation flowers down the barrels of the soldiers guns in support). This led to the former colonies such as Angola and Mozambique, etc. being relinquished. Between 1974 and 1976, there were around 200 bomb attacks in Madeira alone in conflicts between right and leftist forces which was more than the combined acts of the other terrorists groups operating in Europe at the time combined. So, by comparison, the struggles and issues of today are minor in comparison.

Of course, it is a country in transition. Look how long it took to stabilize other democracies (if they have). Like the former Soviet Union, it may be that some of the old guard still remain. It will take a generation or more for these people to pass on and the new generations to want (or not want) and demand change.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Portug...n_to_democracy

My opinion is that the Germans have a project on their mind and will whip the EU into shape but it will take time. Look how seamlessly they integrated East Germany. I doubt the UK with its band of career politicians could manage that. In fact, it is doubtful what they could manage at the moment.

macliam

What you say is true - but it should also be remembered that the revolution in 1974 only happened because the junior officers were unwilling to remain cannon fodder in the colonial wars and staged a coup d'état which was almost non-political.... the coup leaders had no intention of taking power, just seeing an end to the Estado Novo. The political leaders only came out of the woodwork (or back from exile) once the regime had fallen and it was then that the instability started, with threatened coups and counter-coups..... So, when the leaders of any of the parties stand up and spout about 1974, you might want to ask what they, or their party, were doing back then to end the dictatorship.

Johnboyuk

I can only agree with you on the chaos that followed, your point of view is factual and interesting. I moved to South Africa in 1982 and met many former Angolan and Mozambiquan Portuguese who had fled to South Africa having lost everything when the colonies were let go. Many felt betrayed by Portugal because there had been no negotiated transition, the countries were just cut loose and handed back to whoever claimed to be the rightful government. There was no time for an orderly withdrawal and free elections, the Portuguese people left with what they could basically carry. What was worse, many Portuguese officers who tried to resist and demand an orderly withdrawal, were executed on the orders of their own government. It got even worse, after this, years of civil war followed in these countries with South Africa fighting a proxy war for the west against the Marxist forces trying to gain control in the former colonies, especially in Angola. I believe this only ended around 1992, around the time Mandela was released. This is why I said it will be up to future generations to decide on the politicians that they want to represent them going forward to shape the country they live in because the past is not that far behind.

macliam

I'd take what you were told with a pinch of salt...... My wife's step-mother was a "retornado" and so were many of the people in her village in the north of Portugal. She had joined her brother in Mozambique 15 years before the revolution and had married and had a family there. She said that the writing had been on the wall for a long time and the Portuguese took almost a year to gradually hand over to the new governments.... so it wasn't exactly the "overnight" change you suggest. They had time to organize their departure.... but they couldn't take much with them and anything left behind was worthless as there was nobody to buy it. Like all the ex-colonials, she bemoaned having to leave Africa, but I don't recall her saying they were ever directly threatened - because they had taken no part in the war. The colonial wars had been very nasty and Portuguese forces had committed atrocities and relocated people by force, so it was never likely to be an easy peace. Those colonists known to have been particularly active against the rebels - particularly the "defence volunteer" paramilitaries - obviously became targets - but the biggest issue was that all the post-colonial governments had to contend with rebellions by other factions, so it was not a good time to be caught in the middle.

I have also never heard of Portuguese officers being executed on the orders of the Portuguese government - indeed I find it unlikely, given that they did no such thing to the Pide or the supporters of the Estado Novo - or even those involved with Spinola's attempted coup. I have heard of some colonial officers who went "rogue" and continued to fight the recognized governments in Africa, like the 120 who joined the FNLA in an attempt to overthrow the MPLA in Luanda, but that's a different matter. From my experience, there seems to be a different "memory" from those who returned directly to Europe as opposed to moving to South Africa, like My wife's cousins - and given the apartheid regime's backing for the anti-government forces and even direct interventions, that might be understandable - I'm sure the propaganda machines were in full swing. But I would agree with you that they were all bitter against the Portuguese government, many of them being apologists for the Salazar regime which had protected them....

However, my godson's father was a "Comando" throughout the war in Angola. He says that his unit was always active (mainly against the FNLA) - but that some other troops were just used to drive the native population out of the rebel areas. Whilst it's not unusual for font-line troops to look down on garrison forces, he says they were real butchers and has spoken about finding villages with the entire population wiped out. History is still very grey about those times..........

dingg

I worked in oil and gas industry Angola late 80's early 90's
Interesting times indeed!!!!!

carcajou

Portugal is in no way a Third World Country, and I agree that the hyperbole gets out of hand.

However, East Germany was not "seamlessly" integrated and that process is still ongoing . . . and the idea of a "German project" to "whip the EU into shape" is a prospect I find absolutely terrifying . . . as would many Europeans who are not German.

The European Union is in no way supposed to be a vehicle for German (or French) ambitions at the expense of others.

macliam

I think it's all too easy to jump at supposed ghosts, to react to the words used rather than the intended meaning. The expression "third world" may be incorrect in relation to Portugal in it's purest form - and, indeed, it can be used in a derogatory way - but it also describes the difference between a country still emerging from a traumatic past and other, more established, European states. Portugal is still very much a work in progress, partly due to the situation and partly due to the very nature of the Portuguese themselves - the very open, laid-back attitude of "deixa-la" makes for slow change, bureaucracy is endemic and the country has been "em crise" for as long as I can remember. Compared to 30 years ago there has been some progress, the old "o que é nacional é bom" attitude has diminished and being part of the EU (and the Euro) has almost dragged it kicking and screaming into the C21st - but the old ways are still there below the surface and there are still deep divisions between the political and commercial class and the rest..... I live in sheep country and my neighbour "accepts" that he will be shorn by the wolves..... "é vida".... whereas my "more sophisticated" Lisbon BiL describes politicians as "piratas com gravatas".

Equally, whilst I agree that dominance by the de-facto strongest power in the EU is to be resisted, I also agree that Germany has ambitions.... not in a "bad" way, per se, but because they see their "bund" system as the best and most conducive to unity and prosperity - and, less kindly, because they fail to recognise the benefits of anything else. National characteristics are slow to change and whilst they may not be true in all cases and can lead to stereotypes, they do sum up attitudes and certain "truisms". I'm Irish, and what I say about Portugal was also true of my country to a large extent - Ireland took a long, long time to emerge from the shadows and was hostage to its own attitudes, but it is now emerging as a modern European state - and I'm proud of the progress. Certainly it has matured into a far better system than left behind 40 years ago. I also have over 30 years "investment" in Portugal, have visited every corner, speak the language and understand the historical context - so I hope to say the same about Portugal in the near future - but, for now, it has some way to go. It may be "respectful" for a guest not to criticise their host, but it's also dishonest and can be a sign of indifference - love of Portugal does not mean denial that it can be better.

Naaling

Portugal is NOT "third world", according to ANY possible meaning of the term!
To imply that it is is an insult to the counry and its people.

macliam

You've already tried to push that opinion, I disagree with your interpretation as I stated above.

Naaling

Its not about opinion. Its a question of defininition. You don't get to change the meaning of the phrase, just so you can continue to use it inappropriately.

Ingles

Johnboyuk

I think it is safe to say they the Portuguese who returned to Europe had different memories than those that came to South Africa. Those I met in South Africa were very bitter and were constantly telling the South Africans that they too were about to experience the same fate and also drew similarities with Rhodesia but the South Africans were having none of it. Along with this, I think the stories became exaggerated and embellished. It makes you wonder why they ever came to South Africa, it may have been economic but most seem to do okay. Many opened some of the best restaurants I have experienced anywhere. Johannesburg is/was a paradise for (colonial) Portuguese food. Then there is Fernando Duarte from Mozambique who went on to found Nando's and started in Johannesburg.

But, no doubt, the Cold War was being fought out there and I witnessed heavy Soviet armaments being brought to Pretoria for evaluation, all with instruction manuals and nameplates written in Portuguese. Whose side they ended up on is anyone's guess in the chaos.

macliam

Pedantry is not a science.
All language is about interpretation, without interpretation there is no poetry.
Language is not a precision tool, it is a means of communication - and interpretations of words change over time.
Perhaps you'd like to contribute your opinion rather than trying to close down conversation?

macliam

I agree - Portuguese food was enhanced by the colonial connections. It may be that those who returned to Europe were not reminded every day of what they no longer had.... or that those who went to South Africa held onto the hope that they could regain their past. It is also the case that some of the colonists were very aligned with the political situation in South Africa and supportive of the disruptive incursions and support for anti-government forces. I do recall, quite vividly, that many Portuguese expressed racial opinions that would have been unacceptable in the UK back then.

The Cubans brought in a lot of heavy equipment to balance that being used and supplied by South Africa - the skies over Angola became far more dangerous for SAAF pilots after the Cubans arrived in force, whereas before they were tipping the balance against the MPLA. As you said, the wars became proxies to an extent - although the Cubans insisted that they were merely supporting the revolutionary forces against colonial and neo-colonial powers..... and they had a point because Pretoria was certainly not shy about throwing its weight about. Unfortunately, the civil wars, tribal divisions and corruption have hindered progress, as elsewhere in southern Africa (if not Africa in general), but such things are hardly confined to Africa alone.

The "retornados" certainly impacted Portugal's progress - the number varies between 500,000 to 1 million "refugees" arriving back in Portugal - up to 10% of the population. The need to feed and house them - and the pressure of finding work for them in an economy already knocked sideways by reaction to the end of the Estado Novo, crippled the economy and exacerbated the swings between right and left wing politics. The reaction to this influx influenced the formation of the "new" Portugal in ways that still exist today.

mfesharne

Anyone who thinks Portugal is anything approaching a third world country is either talking BS or has never visited one let alone lived in one.

I kicked around southern & east Africa for several decades & believe me, Portugal has precious little in common with those countries except a shared colonial history of some.