Le Saints

Hi Macliam
Although my project is dead in the water you understood correctly, the units would have been movable but not the utilities, but I need your experience with another opportunity that has come my way, as explained further down this thread.
Cheers
Le Saints

macliam

OK, when you say "project", is that a figurative term... i.e. something to get underway, or a "project" in the Portuguese sense, i.e. an approved plan?

If the former, then it really, really, depends on what is there and what you would need to do with it (is the footprint OK, is any construction required, etc), because the recuperation of "ruins" is something that sounds straightforward, but often isn't. If the latter, does the plan suit your needs and is it still valid?

Advice rather depends on tour answer.... because the more bureaucracy to go through, the greater the cost, the greater the time and the greater the risk.

Le Saints

Hi Macliam
Most definitely something to get underway, careful consideration would have to be made as what to do with it, at the moment it is a empty shell with all utilities on site.
Our friend is of the opinion to knock it down and use the footprint as a guide and see what could be achieved, and after seeing it I would tend to agree.
Cheers

GrahamF

From what you describe, I think my first step would be to discuss with local authority to get an idea of whet they would be looking for, before spending money on lawyers, architect etc.. They may allow changes to be made to design or, insist the elevations and roof remain the same including window and door openings.

macliam

I agree, they will also tell you what the maximum allowable covered area will be...... but as said before, this can include patios, covered areas, etc., etc. so you'll need that before going much further.

But, back to basics. Is the seller pushing for a sale? If no, then I'd definitely look for full info on what you can and can't achieve..... because it's too late once you've paid the dosh.

If so, your next step is to seek out a youngish local architect - take a look at completed works, not drawings - youngish, because they're more likely to have ideas how to best exploit the available space, local, because they'll know what will and what won't fly with the Camara (so make sure he/she has dealt with that camara before). Ask them to provide an outline design.... it'll cost you, but you'll see what they're worth (because the later plans should just firm up on this).

Le Saints

Thanks Graham F
Having this forum available must have saved expats time, money and sanity over the years.
Would it be me without actually owning the plot who contacts the Camara ?
Cheers
Le Saints

Le Saints

Macliam

I have posted a reply with question to Graham F, do I approach the Camara myself with my farmer friend as interpreter ? If not who will undertake the task ?
And to answer your question, no, there isn't any pressure for a quick sale, as stated earlier he is a family friend and we have helped him during his time in the UK.
I have read one of your earlier posts regarding the official documents which have to be in place and this cleared my head of questions I don't have to ask.

Cheers
Le Saints

macliam

If your friend will undertake this task, it would obviously help - what you are trying to do is establish just what is possible with the plot before you commit to buy it.

Likewise with the Architect..... what you are asking for is not a fully-worked plan for submission to the Camara, because that would cost you a few grand - what you are asking for is the architect's initial thoughts on what could be done to exploit the plot, within the confines of what can be achieved within your budget..... sketches rather than drawings, not down to the last centimetre but based on reality. The architect may not be happy to do this (although it's fairly easy money and no commitment), so you need to sell it as the door-opener for full plan development, more than a back-of-a-fag packet, less than a plan - but firmly based on what is, AND IS NOT, possible with the plot in question and the potential building cost. The price of this advice might be higher than you like..... especially since you won't yet have committed to buying the land, but you have to offset that against the alternatives, 1) you buy land which can't provide what you want and/or 2) you pay a lot more for a full set of plans for something you then commit to the wastebin.

If all this goes well (and something else you can check out in advance), see if the architect has a favoured builder and check out other builders in the area. If you think to undertake any work yourself, ensure the builder is happy with that (as it will be his name on the permission to build and his insurance covering the job!). Check that he can pull in all the ancillary skills, plumbing, electrician, etc., etc. and you are happy with their work too. At the end of the day, you are in their hands.... and it's your money.

Realistically, there's a load of work to do before you get down to the actual purchase of the land, etc. Once you get there, a good local lawyer will get all the papers through and may well help with getting the planning through - it's really helpful when the lawyer and architect know each other. None of this is easy as a stranger to the area.... you don't know who to trust and who's good and who's just a paper-shuffler..... your friend may know more, but then you are just shifting your reliance onto him - and it's your money, your time and your future (because, believe me, this will all take a lot of all three!)

Cheers.

GrahamF

Firstly, I have no first hand experience with building in Portugal. One thing I have learned though over several decades is, that much depends on the official you get to see on the day and I think going in company with the property owner is more likely to be treated as a genuine enquiry rather than someone they may see as another time waster. Best tactic with most public employees is to go cap in hand asking for their "expert" advice, rather than putting a scheme forward which may immediately generate objections.

Le Saints

Macliam, this info is invaluable.
The potential costs incurred in investigative work could be offset to the asking price, and because there would not be estate agents fees it may be a viable suggestion to the vender.
We know a English builder with a Portuguese licence, I spoke to him re- my dead idea, and he told me he would be happy to let me do work on the uncertificated trades side, the farmer knows an architect but I don't know his track record, I think we are in a good place as far as contacts are concerned at this stage.
I can check out the majority of the builders work because my friend does have some involvement in his jobs " landscaping" and has given him reliable local tradesmen since he received his licence over 20 years ago. I haven't met the architect yet and would definitely take your advice and ask him his experience with the relevant Camara.

Cheers
Le Saints

macliam

I'd agree with this.... especially the last part . When they say something blindingly obvious, be enthusiastic and act surprised!! Most of all, be grateful for any actual information or advice you get...... some are great, some are obnoxious.... but so are the people who will actually decide whether a final plan gets approved or not. All you can do is maximise your chances - so be very wary of anything "out of the ordinary" and big-up any "local" features.....

Le Saints

Totally agree guys.

I've not mentioned this earlier but I have been in the construction industry for over 40 years, I specialise in the heritage sector Grade 1 & 2's and have to deal with English Heritage and Historic England plus several other bodies who have to be approached in exactly the same manner, you don't tell them how to do anything but you can offer advice when things go Pear shaped, they then go to the client and tell them "they" have solved the problem, You have to be a member of the diplomatic core but I don't mind, they keep coming back for remedies and it keeps me in work.
So I know where both of you are coming from.
Another appointment at the Camara with my friend will be arranged as your experienced advice will be 100% taken on board.

Cheers
Le Saints

GrahamF

Think of them as UK building inspectors. Dig a hole 4 ft deep they come along and say go deeper but, if asked beforehand, 4 ft would be ideal.

Le Saints

As I said Graham F it is good to know the dance.

Cheers Le Saints