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Moving to portugal and Brexit...

Moving to portugal and Brexit...

Old Apr 4th 2017, 6:36 pm
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Default Re: Moving to portugal and Brexit...

Hi Liveaboard

When you say take up residency, do you mean as Red Eric says, to register after 90 days? Or do you mean to live there for more than 183 days a year, pay tax etc? What exactly counts as living there before Brexit?

You mean I can get French residency by marrying my partner? I was actually thinking about proposing to my partner, nothing to do with Brexit though! But it seems to get french citizenship by marriage, I have to live in France for 5 years before I can even apply! Then the process can take 2 years. It doesnt sound simple, and who knows, maybe they will leave the EU too!!

Im so confused I appreciate all the advice
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Old Apr 4th 2017, 7:38 pm
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Default Re: Moving to portugal and Brexit...

Originally Posted by robodelfy
Hi Liveaboard

When you say take up residency, do you mean as Red Eric says, to register after 90 days? Or do you mean to live there for more than 183 days a year, pay tax etc? What exactly counts as living there before Brexit?

You mean I can get French residency by marrying my partner? I was actually thinking about proposing to my partner, nothing to do with Brexit though! But it seems to get french citizenship by marriage, I have to live in France for 5 years before I can even apply! Then the process can take 2 years. It doesnt sound simple, and who knows, maybe they will leave the EU too!!

Im so confused I appreciate all the advice
Residency and tex-residency are different - as is citizenship.
For residency, initially after 3 months you go to the local Camara and you have to prove you will not be a burden on the state. They can grant you residency for 5 years. After 5 years you need to register with the equivalent of the immigration service.

Tax-residency is different. If you stay in Portugal for more than 6 months, you have to register to pay your taxes in Portugal (and stop paying in the UK). That's a complex subject and you'll probably need professional advice.

Citizenship is entirely different and has a whole new set of hoops to jump through ..... but I doubt you'll ever need that.

With all the options there are some things that will change the way you live - e.g. as a resident you will need to register your driving license or change it for a Portuguese one. As a tex-resident, ISAs etc. are no longer tax-free (as they're a UK tax vehicle) and you'll be assessed on your worldwide income.

If you try to get it all figured out in advance you'll blow a fuse - just remember that Portugal is not a strict on dates as the UK, so just do things as they become necessary.
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Old Apr 4th 2017, 8:03 pm
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Default Re: Moving to portugal and Brexit...

Can I throw a question out there.....

If one bought an old battered hut in spain, plus the one in PT, plus the house in England..... you could choose where you paid your taxes as there'd be no record of whether you're in SP or PT (due to no border customs). As long as you can prove you've spent 2 days in the U.K. then neither PT or SP can prove you've spent more than 5 months 30 days in either.
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Old Apr 4th 2017, 8:21 pm
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Default Re: Moving to portugal and Brexit...

Thanks Macliam

yes I am currently trying to work it all out at once, when everything is so uncertain anyway. I guess its the start of a potential huge project, and so it's hard not to imagine the future.

I also worry about my partner and child. She is French, her daughter is French/Thai, and I am english. She has not lived in the UK or paid any tax, as we met abroad. I don't know what it will mean in the future for us wanting to be together, how Brexit will affect that. I imagine many people are worrying about the same issues
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Old Apr 4th 2017, 8:34 pm
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Default Re: Moving to portugal and Brexit...

Originally Posted by robodelfy
Thanks Macliam

yes I am currently trying to work it all out at once, when everything is so uncertain anyway. I guess its the start of a potential huge project, and so it's hard not to imagine the future.

I also worry about my partner and child. She is French, her daughter is French/Thai, and I am english. She has not lived in the UK or paid any tax, as we met abroad. I don't know what it will mean in the future for us wanting to be together, how Brexit will affect that. I imagine many people are worrying about the same issues
Tell me about it - I'm Irish, but worked 35 years in the UK and have a house and my company pension, etc. there; my wife is Portuguese, lived over 25 years in the UK, but never worked there and has no NI number. She has a "right to remain" typed letter from Croydon in the early 90's, but.....

Last year all this was of passing interest. Now......
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Old Apr 4th 2017, 8:40 pm
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Default Re: Moving to portugal and Brexit...

Thats the thing. It seems the general consensus is that people who have lived here and worked here, (registered here?) etc. will have be able to stay after Brexit. Still, nobody knows, but I can't see them kicking every non UK national out! It's not going to happen.....but

What about your situation, where your wife has not worked, no NI number etc. Or for my partner and child who have never lived here, what will it mean for them. It is not a nice way to live, in a state of perpetual uncertainty and worry.

I didn't realise how much I cared about being part of the EU and what that meant until it was decided we would leave. I have this strange feeling now of being on this soon to be segregated island with 52% of the country I don't agree with! I liked being part of something bigger, of a larger sense of community and connection. I don't feel British at all. Quite the opposite.
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Old Apr 4th 2017, 9:23 pm
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Default Re: Moving to portugal and Brexit...

Originally Posted by robodelfy
Hi Liveaboard

You mean I can get French residency by marrying my partner?
Im so confused I appreciate all the advice
You can get residency [nationality is a different kettle of fish] in any EU country where your EU partner is resident.
For instance, if you are married to a French person and she is resident in Portugal, you can also become resident of Portugal.
It's not automatic, you have to apply.
BUT;
She will have to show income sufficient to support you both. They don't use an exact number; it seems to depend on where you live and whether you own a property [therefore have rent expenses or not added on].
Your income is apparently not counted [that could have changed now, not sure].

Immigration is tricky.
If you're serious, get over here and register your residency within the next year or two, before it gets complicated.

And should you propose, and she accept; congratulations!
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Old Apr 4th 2017, 9:25 pm
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Default Re: Moving to portugal and Brexit...

Depending how the A20 Dublin case goes, we might all stay EU citizens even after brexit.

[lets not mix the threads though]
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Old Apr 4th 2017, 9:25 pm
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Default Re: Moving to portugal and Brexit...

Originally Posted by robodelfy
You mean I can get French residency by marrying my partner? I was actually thinking about proposing to my partner, nothing to do with Brexit though! But it seems to get french citizenship by marriage, I have to live in France for 5 years before I can even apply! Then the process can take 2 years. It doesnt sound simple, and who knows, maybe they will leave the EU too!!
The way the residence rules for EU citizens and their partners / spouses works within the EU, it can actually be easier for an EU citizen to settle with a non EU citizen in any member state other than that of their nationality.

Thus, if, when the UK formally exits, UK citizens are considered as any other non EU citizens and no special arrangements apply, you wouldn't need to acquire French citizenship to move to Portugal with your partner and child. Her French nationality would be enough to get you in and it could be easier than you trying to settle in France or the UK together.
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Old Apr 4th 2017, 11:19 pm
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Default Re: Moving to portugal and Brexit...

Originally Posted by robodelfy
I do have a house in the UK and the income from that as I rent it out. So I am not sure how that will factor in.
UK rental income is always taxable in the UK, regardless of whether the recipient is UK tax resident or not.

If you are tax resident in Portugal, you will have to complete a UK tax return each year and pay the necessary tax on your rental income. You can deduct expenses from the rent received, thereby reducing the taxable amount. You will retain a UK personal allowance, meaning the amount of tax paid could well be nil.

You will also have to declare this income on your Portuguese tax return. Any UK tax paid can be offset against Portuguese tax, because of the double tax treaty that exists between the two countries.
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Old Apr 5th 2017, 6:47 am
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Default Re: Moving to portugal and Brexit...

Originally Posted by robodelfy
I keep hearing that people currently living abroad in EU countries are likely not to be made to leave post brexit.

That is why I am wondering if moving to an EU country in the next year or two will also mean you are more likely to be able to stay?
As everyone has already said robodeify It's a bit of a crap shoot as the Americans would say. However if you look upon it as a non EU person moving to Portugal you will have a better idea of what to expect. There are plenty of non EU's living here quite happily ,both as residents or non residents.

The Brits might be making a lot of noise right now about how 'they' want things done but they do have to think about their millions of citizens living and working abroad. What they and the EU decides affects us all reciprocally ,and thats the key.
It is of zero interest to the EU to cause problems for their own citizens,just as it is with the Brits.This question is the second on the agenda as the talks begin so we should know fairly soon what the stance is
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Old Apr 5th 2017, 6:51 am
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Default Re: Moving to portugal and Brexit...

...and just to add to what teejaydee said, in case you're in any doubt on this aspect of your UK property, you could carry on owning that and renting it out and but still be resident in PT provided you spend most of your time here (even if you don't intend to own property of your own in Portugal).
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Old Apr 5th 2017, 6:58 am
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Default Re: Moving to portugal and Brexit...

Thanks for all that info, most of which I didn't know!

Well that's good to know about her French citizenship being enough. Is it enough that we are partners, or do you have to be married?

I am wondering if there will be any advantage to us getting married before Brexit, especially if we move to Portugal.

It is unlikely to be that she will be earning enough to support me! It is more likely the other way around. The plan eventually will be to both work in the community, but we wont be making much money at all, as we will have accommodation, food etc.

That's interesting about rental income. What I make from my house is less than the personal allowance of £11,000. So that should not be a problem.

I had also considered the Golden Visa if I really felt like settling in portugal. I would sell my house and buy in Portugal. But it seems the Golden Visa scheme is backed up by years! And I imagine its only going to get worse.

Lots to think about!
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Old Apr 5th 2017, 7:32 am
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Default Re: Moving to portugal and Brexit...

The Golden Visa is really a way for non EU citizens who don't have an EU spouse or family to get a foot in the door, so to speak - and it involves a heavy investment. It isn't of any interest to you as things stand at the moment in your situation.

With regard to tax, you would be very well advised to look at the (rather confusingly-named) Non Habitual Resident regime, which is currently available to new residents in Portugal on application and can give considerable advantages or even complete exemption from paying PT tax for a period of 10 years.

With regard to marriage, in the hypothetical situation that your move is after Brexit and the UK has negotiated its way out to rest-of-the-world status, rendering your British citzenship useless in terms of settling elsewhere in the EU, no, according to the rules you wouldn't have to be married to your French partner in order to qualify for family reunion. But you would have to prove "a long-term or durable relationship". I don't know how easy or difficult that would be to do. But if you move before Brexit is finalised, your British citizenship alone is enough to get you legally resident here with an absolute minimum of formalities, regardless of your relationship.
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Old Apr 5th 2017, 7:59 am
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Default Re: Moving to portugal and Brexit...

Hi Red Eric thanks again.

Yes the Golden visa is probably not appropriate. I will look into the Non Habitual resident scheme, and it is a confusing name!

I imagine it is quite hard to prove a long term or durable relationship. Being married obviously makes things easier in that respect.

When you say to become legally a resident in Portugal before Brexit is finalised....do you just mean registering at the local Camara after my initial 3 months are up, not neccesarily becoming a tax resident also?
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