More questions about residency
Feb 19th 2019, 7:05 pm
#1
Just Joined
Thread Starter
Joined: Feb 2019
Posts: 1
More questions about residency
Hi All,
For clarification, I'm from the UK but I live in Ireland and have an Irish passport.
It's another residency question
, I know there's already loads here about that subject, but I was looking for a bit of clarification on things said by 2 members regarding part of it.
The first one is about proof of funds and health insurance, I've seen numerous posts, some were older posts so rules may have changed since people wrote what they did at that time, which was people saying you need to show you have a certain amount of money, and have to have health insurance. Then I see others in more recent posts saying that no proof of funds need to be shown, and neither does health insurance.
As a couple of recent examples regarding applying for residency, Red Eric posted this in Jan 2018
In Sep 2018 mfesharne posted the following
Firstly, is what's said in those 2 quotes above true, and where can I see that written in some official document, because of those sites I've read, I can't see anything saying that.
Is it really just pot luck if you get asked to supply proof of funds and health insurance, surely there must be an EU law that is law across the country in all Camaras, not just one here and there, and another rule in this one or that one, that being the case, how can things vary so much, apart from some civil servant thinking he/she runs the show and can make his/her own rules up as the go along?
If turning up to register your residency, you get asked for those 2 things, can you refuse and point out that they're not allowed to ask you for those, and point them to a specific rule of EU/ Portuguese law regarding it to put them in their place, does anyone have a specific link to that law/rule?
Another question, when applying for a NIF, you need a passport, address and the fee, I could use my home address in Ireland for that, and I assume if I gave them my electric bill from Ireland, that would be accepted for address purposes? Hope so, as that's the only utility bill I get.
This is where it gets a bit more difficult, providing I get the NIF, I could then apply for residency, for which you need to supply a Portugal address, the problem is, I wont have an address in Portugal, as I'll be volunteering at eco projects, most of which are off grid places with people living in tents, caravans and yurts etc, no houses, so I couldn't use any of those places as addresses because there's no house/address there.
I've seen it suggested in a couple of posts that people could use Airbnb and use that as your address for proof of address, but I'm not seeing how that could be done, as I wouldn't be getting utility bills from that rental, and having not used Airbnb before, I'm not sure if you actually have contact with the person who owns the property, presumably it's Airbnb who do the bookings and you never get to see or contact the property owners?
I was thinking if you could actually speak to the property owner, you might be able to rent their place for a week or so, and come to an agreement where you could say to them, can you write me a letter confirming I'm living at your address, and in return, I'll pay you up front for a couple of months rent, whilst not even staying there for the 2 months, so they could still rent it out and earn double those months, would a letter from the property owner be accepted as proof of address?
For clarification, I'm from the UK but I live in Ireland and have an Irish passport.
It's another residency question
, I know there's already loads here about that subject, but I was looking for a bit of clarification on things said by 2 members regarding part of it.The first one is about proof of funds and health insurance, I've seen numerous posts, some were older posts so rules may have changed since people wrote what they did at that time, which was people saying you need to show you have a certain amount of money, and have to have health insurance. Then I see others in more recent posts saying that no proof of funds need to be shown, and neither does health insurance.
As a couple of recent examples regarding applying for residency, Red Eric posted this in Jan 2018
You won't need private health insurance and shouldn't be asked for proof of funds.
Some Camaras (notably Penela) try to ask EU passport holders (sic) to provide proof of income or financial security but this should only apply to non EU passports & they have no right to ask for that.Some EU legislation does suggest that holders of EU member state passports do need 'sufficient funds' to gain residency but I can find no mention of having to actually prove 'sufficient funds' or what amount of funds is sufficient therefore assume that if the individual says he/she has sufficient funds then the funds they say they have are sufficient.
Is it really just pot luck if you get asked to supply proof of funds and health insurance, surely there must be an EU law that is law across the country in all Camaras, not just one here and there, and another rule in this one or that one, that being the case, how can things vary so much, apart from some civil servant thinking he/she runs the show and can make his/her own rules up as the go along?
If turning up to register your residency, you get asked for those 2 things, can you refuse and point out that they're not allowed to ask you for those, and point them to a specific rule of EU/ Portuguese law regarding it to put them in their place, does anyone have a specific link to that law/rule?
Another question, when applying for a NIF, you need a passport, address and the fee, I could use my home address in Ireland for that, and I assume if I gave them my electric bill from Ireland, that would be accepted for address purposes? Hope so, as that's the only utility bill I get.
This is where it gets a bit more difficult, providing I get the NIF, I could then apply for residency, for which you need to supply a Portugal address, the problem is, I wont have an address in Portugal, as I'll be volunteering at eco projects, most of which are off grid places with people living in tents, caravans and yurts etc, no houses, so I couldn't use any of those places as addresses because there's no house/address there.
I've seen it suggested in a couple of posts that people could use Airbnb and use that as your address for proof of address, but I'm not seeing how that could be done, as I wouldn't be getting utility bills from that rental, and having not used Airbnb before, I'm not sure if you actually have contact with the person who owns the property, presumably it's Airbnb who do the bookings and you never get to see or contact the property owners?
I was thinking if you could actually speak to the property owner, you might be able to rent their place for a week or so, and come to an agreement where you could say to them, can you write me a letter confirming I'm living at your address, and in return, I'll pay you up front for a couple of months rent, whilst not even staying there for the 2 months, so they could still rent it out and earn double those months, would a letter from the property owner be accepted as proof of address?
Last edited by Portugaly; Feb 19th 2019 at 7:10 pm.
Feb 20th 2019, 9:45 am
#2
BE Forum Addict
Joined: Aug 2012
Location: Viana do Castelo
Posts: 1,385
Re: More questions about residency
My adult daughter and I are both citizens of EU member countries and we both registered our presence at the local Camara. At that time we did not even have bank accounts in Portugal and my daughter had no account anywhere. We did not even have fiscal numbers. No financial questions were asked and my daughter did not have private medical insurance. They did not ask for this and according to EU regulations it may not be a requirement. We both got residency with no problem at all.
My wife is a non EU country citizen and has spent 2 months in state hospitals at a cost of nearly € 150k without medical insurance and it cost us about €50.00. No questions asked.
My wife is a non EU country citizen and has spent 2 months in state hospitals at a cost of nearly € 150k without medical insurance and it cost us about €50.00. No questions asked.
Feb 20th 2019, 5:31 pm
#3
BE Forum Addict
Joined: Mar 2013
Location: central Portugal
Posts: 4,111
Re: More questions about residency
Portugaly
The reason you can't find it written into law is because it doesn't seem to be there.................. All I can find on official EU sites are a few vague references to 'sufficient funds' but I can't find anything on relevant links that name a figure.......................... The closest I can find only refers to holders of non EU member state passports applying for Type D or similar visas where reference is made to 'equivalent of minimum wage' which is about €580 per month................... might be a bit more because changes were made recently & I think it refers to 14 payments per year not 12.
You can only register residency at your local Camara & cannot go to another Camara so you're always at the mercy of the individual civil servant................. many of whom suffer from acute variable bureaucracy syndrome & interpret the rules any way they like but FWIW, I know of 6 people (3 different couples) who went to my 2 local areas recently & none were asked to prove financial security................ they were asked if they had finances available but that's all.
As for NHS...... look at sef.pt, select the English language option, click the Brexit icon, download the PDF & it says that registered residents will continue to be entitled NHS care here & the UK Embassy are saying the same thing on their Facebook page which is called 'Brits in Portugal'
The reason you can't find it written into law is because it doesn't seem to be there.................. All I can find on official EU sites are a few vague references to 'sufficient funds' but I can't find anything on relevant links that name a figure.......................... The closest I can find only refers to holders of non EU member state passports applying for Type D or similar visas where reference is made to 'equivalent of minimum wage' which is about €580 per month................... might be a bit more because changes were made recently & I think it refers to 14 payments per year not 12.
You can only register residency at your local Camara & cannot go to another Camara so you're always at the mercy of the individual civil servant................. many of whom suffer from acute variable bureaucracy syndrome & interpret the rules any way they like but FWIW, I know of 6 people (3 different couples) who went to my 2 local areas recently & none were asked to prove financial security................ they were asked if they had finances available but that's all.
As for NHS...... look at sef.pt, select the English language option, click the Brexit icon, download the PDF & it says that registered residents will continue to be entitled NHS care here & the UK Embassy are saying the same thing on their Facebook page which is called 'Brits in Portugal'
Feb 21st 2019, 8:03 am
#4
Polished expat
Joined: Jul 2014
Location: Arcos de Valdevez "Onde Portugal se fez"
Posts: 16,820
Re: More questions about residency
Hi Portugaly and a very warm welcome to the forum from me
On the matter of healthcare, here is a document which shows the process and requirements for enrolment in the public health system. You'll see that it is available to all residents, regardless of whether they're working, in receipt of a pension or neither and that it's just the matter of how the enrolment is effected and whether you need a social security number that changes. This has long been on display, in PT and English, on the notice board in the waiting area of my local health centre.
ACCESS TO HEALTH CARE BY FOREIGN CITIZENS
On the matter of obtaining a residency registration document, perhaps it ought first to be pointed out that, contrary to some of the more lurid theories floating about, the right of EU citizens to free movement and to residence in other member states is not completely unconditional. You fit in to one category or another and you comply with the conditions for that category, be it job-seeker, employee, student, pensioner etc. and yes, there are regulations and laws at both EU and national level which lay out all the detail.
With regard to funds, the rule at EU regulation level is that you have sufficient not to be a burden on the social assistance system of the host state during your period of residence : Directive 2004/38/EC, Article 7, paragraph 1
and can be requested to prove it as per Article 8, paragraph 3
The above are transcribed into Pt law 37/2006, Chapter 4, Article 7 and Chapter 6, Article 14, the latter of which says that a declaration of honour with regard to sufficient funds is required of the applicant. Version in English here : Law 37/2006
Hope that explains why I used the phrase "shouldn't ask for proof of funds" in the post of mine you quoted. It wasn't a proscriptive shouldn't, more a "as a rule", as a declaration is deemed to be sufficient.
I'm pretty certain you won't be asked to provide evidence of health insurance as you're entitled to enrol in the public system - I don't recall anyone ever raising that as a bar to obtaining a registration doc., which is one of the requirements for that enrolment.
I'm not a big subscriber to the officials making up the rules line myself. Generally things seem to go according to what's laid down and most of the public officials I've had dealings with are approachable, knowledgeable and helpful and I think we should expect a certain degree of variance, flexibility or tolerance in the application of "the rules".
I wouldn't 
Well, not quite the way that sounds, anyway.
On the matter of healthcare, here is a document which shows the process and requirements for enrolment in the public health system. You'll see that it is available to all residents, regardless of whether they're working, in receipt of a pension or neither and that it's just the matter of how the enrolment is effected and whether you need a social security number that changes. This has long been on display, in PT and English, on the notice board in the waiting area of my local health centre.
ACCESS TO HEALTH CARE BY FOREIGN CITIZENS
On the matter of obtaining a residency registration document, perhaps it ought first to be pointed out that, contrary to some of the more lurid theories floating about, the right of EU citizens to free movement and to residence in other member states is not completely unconditional. You fit in to one category or another and you comply with the conditions for that category, be it job-seeker, employee, student, pensioner etc. and yes, there are regulations and laws at both EU and national level which lay out all the detail.
With regard to funds, the rule at EU regulation level is that you have sufficient not to be a burden on the social assistance system of the host state during your period of residence : Directive 2004/38/EC, Article 7, paragraph 1
1. All Union citizens shall have the right of residence on the territory of another Member State for a period of longer than three months if they:
(a) are workers or self-employed persons in the host Member State; or
(b) have sufficient resources for themselves and their family members not to become a burden on the social assistance system of the host Member State during their period of residence and have comprehensive sickness insurance cover in the host Member State; or
(c) are enrolled at a private or public establishment, accredited or financed by the host Member State on the basis of its legislation or administrative practice, for the principal purpose of following a course of study, including vocational training; and
have comprehensive sickness insurance cover in the host Member State and assure the relevant national authority, by means of a declaration or by such equivalent means as they may choose, that they have sufficient resources for themselves and their family members not to become a burden on the social assistance system of the host Member State during their period of residence; or
(d) are family members accompanying or joining a Union citizen who satisfies the conditions referred to in points (a), (b) or (c).
(a) are workers or self-employed persons in the host Member State; or
(b) have sufficient resources for themselves and their family members not to become a burden on the social assistance system of the host Member State during their period of residence and have comprehensive sickness insurance cover in the host Member State; or
(c) are enrolled at a private or public establishment, accredited or financed by the host Member State on the basis of its legislation or administrative practice, for the principal purpose of following a course of study, including vocational training; and
have comprehensive sickness insurance cover in the host Member State and assure the relevant national authority, by means of a declaration or by such equivalent means as they may choose, that they have sufficient resources for themselves and their family members not to become a burden on the social assistance system of the host Member State during their period of residence; or
(d) are family members accompanying or joining a Union citizen who satisfies the conditions referred to in points (a), (b) or (c).
3. For the registration certificate to be issued, Member States may only require that
Union citizens to whom point (a) of Article 7(1) applies present a valid identity card or passport, a confirmation of engagement from the employer or a certificate of employment, or proof that they are self-employed persons;
Union citizens to whom point (b) of Article 7(1) applies present a valid identity card or passport and provide proof that they satisfy the conditions laid down therein;
Union citizens to whom point (c) of Article 7(1) applies present a valid identity card or passport, provide proof of enrolment at an accredited establishment and of comprehensive sickness insurance cover and the declaration or equivalent means referred to in point (c) of Article 7(1). Member States may not require this declaration to refer to any specific amount of resources.
Union citizens to whom point (a) of Article 7(1) applies present a valid identity card or passport, a confirmation of engagement from the employer or a certificate of employment, or proof that they are self-employed persons;
Union citizens to whom point (b) of Article 7(1) applies present a valid identity card or passport and provide proof that they satisfy the conditions laid down therein;
Union citizens to whom point (c) of Article 7(1) applies present a valid identity card or passport, provide proof of enrolment at an accredited establishment and of comprehensive sickness insurance cover and the declaration or equivalent means referred to in point (c) of Article 7(1). Member States may not require this declaration to refer to any specific amount of resources.
Hope that explains why I used the phrase "shouldn't ask for proof of funds" in the post of mine you quoted. It wasn't a proscriptive shouldn't, more a "as a rule", as a declaration is deemed to be sufficient.
Is it really just pot luck if you get asked to supply proof of funds and health insurance, surely there must be an EU law that is law across the country in all Camaras, not just one here and there, and another rule in this one or that one, that being the case, how can things vary so much, apart from some civil servant thinking he/she runs the show and can make his/her own rules up as the go along?
I'm not a big subscriber to the officials making up the rules line myself. Generally things seem to go according to what's laid down and most of the public officials I've had dealings with are approachable, knowledgeable and helpful and I think we should expect a certain degree of variance, flexibility or tolerance in the application of "the rules".
Well, not quite the way that sounds, anyway.
Feb 21st 2019, 8:15 am
#5
BE Forum Addict
Joined: Mar 2013
Location: central Portugal
Posts: 4,111
Re: More questions about residency
As an example of how variable the bureaucracy can sometimes be here........ Penela always used to insist on proof of income or financial security & for at least 2 years made it virtually impossible for immigrants to register on the NHS................ I know at least 2 couples that battled for at least that length of time.
Eventually people started contacting the UK Embassy who appear to have stepped in & since then the problem seems to have been corrected.
On the other hand, I know one (Aussie) guy who somehow managed to get registered with the NHS here well before he got residency sorted out. lol!
Eventually people started contacting the UK Embassy who appear to have stepped in & since then the problem seems to have been corrected.
On the other hand, I know one (Aussie) guy who somehow managed to get registered with the NHS here well before he got residency sorted out. lol!
Feb 21st 2019, 8:26 am
#6
Polished expat
Joined: Jul 2014
Location: Arcos de Valdevez "Onde Portugal se fez"
Posts: 16,820
Re: More questions about residency
As an example of how variable the bureaucracy can sometimes be here........ Penela always used to insist on proof of income or financial security & for at least 2 years made it virtually impossible for immigrants to register on the NHS................ I know at least 2 couples that battled for at least that length of time.
And yes, I'm aware of there still being a little awkwardness in some instances about enrolment in the health system, although they seem less common now than a few years back and there are bodies which can be approached to assist if that happens.
Feb 21st 2019, 9:14 am
#7
BE Forum Addict
Joined: Jul 2009
Posts: 1,828
Re: More questions about residency
I suspect we often forget that the right of freedom of movement does have restrictions (I quote below from https://ec.europa.eu/social/main.jsp?catId=457). As I understand it, for example, someone who is dependant on benefits in one country may not normally have freedom to go elsewhere in the EU just to get better benefits. I don't think it's unreasonable that anyone who isn't obviously working or in receipt of a retirement pension should be asked to declare or demonstrate sufficient means.
The OP may also face differences (compared to a typical Brit) if presenting him/herself as an Irish citizen (and/or resident), due to the different health & welfare system in Ireland (and how that would apply in reverse to a Portuguese immigrant to Ireland).
Who can benefit from this freedom?
- Jobseekers, i.e. EU nationals who move to another EU country to look for a job, under certain conditions
- EU nationals working in another EU country
- EU nationals who return to their country of origin after having worked abroad.
- Family members of the above.
Feb 21st 2019, 10:06 am
#8
BE Forum Addict
Joined: Aug 2012
Location: Viana do Castelo
Posts: 1,385
Re: More questions about residency
The above website is the most important and accurate website as to EU regulations that can differ between EU member countries. Some websites are outdated or misinterpreted. The Freedom of Movement was originally only intended for workers and the self employed and not for pensioners or the wealthy non workers.
YourEurope (SOLVIT) states the following:
Pensionioners: Documents needed.
A valid identity document
A declaration on oath that they have sufficient financial resources for themselves and their family members, and a health insurance policy, if the country of which they are citizens has the same requirement for Portuguese citizens.
https://europa.eu/youreurope/citizen...l/index_en.htm
YourEurope (SOLVIT) states the following:
Pensionioners: Documents needed.
A valid identity document
A declaration on oath that they have sufficient financial resources for themselves and their family members, and a health insurance policy, if the country of which they are citizens has the same requirement for Portuguese citizens.
https://europa.eu/youreurope/citizen...l/index_en.htm
Feb 22nd 2019, 7:44 am
#9
Polished expat
Joined: Jul 2014
Location: Arcos de Valdevez "Onde Portugal se fez"
Posts: 16,820
Re: More questions about residency
I suspect the lack of a fixed abode could well prove the biggest hurdle to overcome in terms of getting a resident registration certificate, so I'm going to ask the OP a question which might seem a little decadent to some - pearl-clutchers might want to avert their gaze.
What's the reason for wanting the registration certificate? Other than getting enrolled in the health system and registering your driving licence, you probably wouldn't ever be asked to produce it. If you're only going to be here on a temporary basis and moving about a bit, not having the certificate probably wouldn't impact on you for what you say you're going to be doing. Even if you were to apply for a registration document and were refused one, nobody's going to swoop in and deport you or anything - you'd be able to continue without it. Theoretically you can be fined for failing to register as an EU citizen if you stay beyond 90 days and fail to register during the following 30 but I've never heard of such a fine actually being applied.
What's the reason for wanting the registration certificate? Other than getting enrolled in the health system and registering your driving licence, you probably wouldn't ever be asked to produce it. If you're only going to be here on a temporary basis and moving about a bit, not having the certificate probably wouldn't impact on you for what you say you're going to be doing. Even if you were to apply for a registration document and were refused one, nobody's going to swoop in and deport you or anything - you'd be able to continue without it. Theoretically you can be fined for failing to register as an EU citizen if you stay beyond 90 days and fail to register during the following 30 but I've never heard of such a fine actually being applied.
Feb 22nd 2019, 8:54 am
#10
BE Forum Addict
Joined: Aug 2012
Location: Viana do Castelo
Posts: 1,385
Re: More questions about residency
For tax sake.
Feb 23rd 2019, 6:05 am
#11
Polished expat
Joined: Jul 2014
Location: Arcos de Valdevez "Onde Portugal se fez"
Posts: 16,820
Re: More questions about residency
Am I right in thinking that was meant as a light-hearted comment?
If not, it seems highly unlikely given what the OP has told us about himself and his intentions. I guess we'll find out more if he ever finds his way back here.
If not, it seems highly unlikely given what the OP has told us about himself and his intentions. I guess we'll find out more if he ever finds his way back here.
