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The List is long! New/old 1973 farm House

The List is long! New/old 1973 farm House

Old Nov 8th 2019, 2:12 pm
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Default The List is long! New/old 1973 farm House

Hi All I have a few questions as we are just about to exchange contracts.

1. Wall mounted Gas LPG gas heaters. We have bought a farm house in the Silves area and it has the possibility of a T3 apartment above upstairs. The house is split in two. Upstairs has its own external entrance, has a wall mounted gas heater to heat the water for the bathroom and the Kitchen one LPG cylinder for upstairs and one LPG cylinder for downstairs ... The boilers are both in their respective kitchens. Are they Legal to use ? the house has not been lived in for about 3 years. Today do they have to be checked off if the T3 apartment is Let? by a registered engineer as in the UK for gas appliances

2 LPG gas cylinders both are missing including the regulators !!!! .... Can a gas tank be added to the house e.g. like in the UK or is it not done in Portugal ? If so what is the cost and to refill ?
Also LPG Gas bottles? What size are they delivered and what kind of cost and who does it?

Log Burner and Flu we want to put in two log Burners one for upstairs and one down think about bringing two with me from the UK.

Containers 40 ft as it is a Small farm I want to add a 40ft steel container to keep my tractors and car in when not being used. if it is on farm land rustico next to the house is it legal ? I want to camouflage it with trees and shrubs anyway.

As always in PG planning is required for just about anything !!!! Ugg lol ! If I install a Patio and shade area attached to the back of the house ...!. do I need planning for the patio and 2. Do I need planning for a tiled roof over the patio. The area in question is on habitation land.

As it will be kind of run as a smallholding are there any government benefits? Mostly Fruit trees and Nuts

I





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Old Nov 9th 2019, 8:23 am
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Default Re: The List is long! New/old 1973 farm House

I would have thought these would be questions you could ask of your estate agent and or lawyer Nige.. As luckily you are buying in the Algarve where English is widely spoken ( or someone can be found who speaks it) If not, a trip to the Camara might be helpful at this stage. I don't know which one Algoz comes under but that can be quite easily found out. Another thought occurs .. There is a very well known English run removal company ( Algarve Removals) right on your doorstep. They should know a lot about permits etc, maybe a quick word with them could help

In our own experience ... It used to be that large extras in your back garden could go unregistered . Then about 10 yrs go the government began to change all that, as land and property had to be properly counted for on the cadaster. In our case the previous owners had not registered the swimming pool or the cookhouse. We did both after purchase.. Smaller additions on your land such as you propose should not be a problem We built what I grandly call.. my Art house. It has no foundations and is obviously a glorified shed. That we were told did not need to be registored..
Good luck with your purchase
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Old Nov 9th 2019, 10:13 am
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Default Re: The List is long! New/old 1973 farm House

There are many issues, here. The rules vary - and the ‘interpretations’ also vary, according to the individual property and the individual camara. Certainly, your estate agent can provide information, but I would never rely on an estate agent, or on a solicitor recommended by an estate agent, for full, accurate, and impartial advice. And builders are also all too willing to bend the rules, so be careful on that account. For questions involving the property, I would find an architect and ask them (don’t worry, as the costs are reasonable). They can look at the house documents, can determine your situation, and if necessary liaise with the Camara’s architect - or you could see that person yourself if you are ok with the language.

The rules surrounding property alterations are, to the UK immigrant, obscure, opaque, mysterious and the have a rationale that can be occult and unfathomable. I don’t really get some of them. For example, we have an annexe, well built and habitable. It is legally built, and we can include a bathroom and kitchen. But, because if the structure of the plots of land that make up our property, we cannot get a habitation licence for it.

Another rule relates to the urban area, and the maximum size you can add to your property. If the area occupied by your property is the same as the maximum permitted area, you cannot add to it. Again, your documents will show this. Incidentally, you could, add, say, a covered barbecue area, as long as the cover is not something solid, like tile, but is (for example) wires with plants growing along them. But, despite what I have just written, it would be wise to check this out for yourself.

Same applies to gas heaters - but, here, my prime concern would be that of safety. Our property is served by three of them, all propane with individual bottles. I think it would be a good idea to have them all serviced, and the canalisador - plumber - will be able to give you sensible advice and should also tell you which gas to use. Ours supplies the gas as well. As always, you need to judge the veracity of your advice, and look elsewhere if you are not sure. Incidentally, it is common for trained canalisadors also to be trained electricians, and they are competent on minor building works.

I think the real challenge here is not that of asking the questions. The challenge is finding out that there are questions needing to be asked.
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Old Nov 9th 2019, 11:07 am
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Default Re: The List is long! New/old 1973 farm House

Thank you GeniB The estate agent is interested in selling the house ... and My Lawyer is great, but has his way of doing things and properly. It was asking the forum Foy your experiences to add to what I know already X
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Old Nov 9th 2019, 3:26 pm
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Default Re: The List is long! New/old 1973 farm House

Originally Posted by NigelH View Post
Thank you GeniB The estate agent is interested in selling the house ... and My Lawyer is great, but has his way of doing things and properly. It was asking the forum Foy your experiences to add to what I know already X
I do get a bit antsy about Estate Agent bashing... I know I am biased as my YD is one.. They, like everyone else involved, are not infallable,but they do have more experience than most of the lie of the land .and can generally point you in the right direction to get help...Going to architects is not the way I would go ,expensive and they also don't generally know enough about an area's rules and regs..As I said.. It's all relatively new here. We cannot in any way liken it to the UK.. We just found out that in the new regs our previously not registered cookhouse has been counted in as a habitable . space.. thus reducing the 40% we thought we had left to build on ..to 30 % ..Things do change pretty rapidly.... For me.. My first port of call would be the camara and a look at the plans for the property you intend to buy

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Old Nov 9th 2019, 6:09 pm
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Default Re: The List is long! New/old 1973 farm House

Originally Posted by NigelH View Post
...
2 LPG gas cylinders both are missing including the regulators !!!! .... Can a gas tank be added to the house e.g. like in the UK or is it not done in Portugal ? If so what is the cost and to refill ?
Also LPG Gas bottles? What size are they delivered and what kind of cost and who does it?
...
You will find gas expensive for space heating, so it's normally restricted to hot water and cooking and the use of bulk tanks is therefore much less common. Bottled gas is often available from local shops, petrol stations etc and it's probably worth finding a reliable local source (and learning whether they can deliver, if important) before committing to a particular brand as the regulators aren't usually interchangeable. https://www.poupenabotija.pt/ may help. You will have to pay a higher price per bottle until you have empty bottles to exchange, in addition to acquiring and fitting the regulators.
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Old Nov 9th 2019, 10:12 pm
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Default Re: The List is long! New/old 1973 farm House

Yes Gas is expensive and so is electricity ...But we have plenty of wood for the wood burner in the winter ... and looking to put an AGA in the Kitchen looking at a Oiled fired one .... and bringing it out with me.... in a 40 ft container and use the container as a workshop on the farm from the UK .... Can you buy used cooking oil ? ... then I need a compact Kabota tractor with a loader and a back Hoe and a flail.
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Old Nov 10th 2019, 8:13 am
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Default Re: The List is long! New/old 1973 farm House

I have a couple of containers on my property; one is just storage, the other is my machine shop.
If you ask the camara if you can place a container, they generally say you need a permit [which is unlikely to be granted], because to them "container" means a habitation.

Since it's not habitation, and has no foundation, it's just a box.
My suggestion is to just do it, and then see what happens.
That's the Portuguese way.

Tractors and implements are expensive here. You might profit by importing, but if you want to be able to drive your tractor on public roads it will need to be matriculated and registered. It's a hassle and only possible if that model was sold in Portugal, so do your homework.
Also, be aware that if you import and don't matriculate, that tractor is worth 30% less, so work that in when you do your sums.
It's worth bringing the implements over for sure. Second hand stuff in Portugal is overpriced, 80% of new price if it's even serviceable, 50% of new price for scrap.
Be quick though!

Last edited by liveaboard; Nov 10th 2019 at 8:15 am.
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Old Nov 10th 2019, 10:37 am
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Default Re: The List is long! New/old 1973 farm House

Yes, I might be tempted to do something like containers on land the Portuguese way, as long as it is not too visible from a road. Sometimes neighbours do shop people to the Camara - a potential spanner in the works. The point is that a container can be moved away if need be. I personally would not extend that approach to anything more permanent, though.

As far as farm implements are concerned, used machinery is not that expensive, and it really is down to the kind and size of machinery you want vs the cost of importation (unless, of course, it might merely sit in the container and thus cost you no more). For example, a good used 25hp 4wd machine might cost in the order of about 3500 euros (more, if you want to be able to use it on public roads). A new 90cm flail mower might be about 700 euros, and used tools such as various harrows perhaps 300 to 400 euros. Last year I bought a nice little 4wd iseki, flail mower, rotavator, spring harrow, and heavy roller, for a total of about 6500 euros. Obviously bigger machines will cost more...but transport will also be pricier. If you want to let me know what kind of equipment you are looking for I’ll be happy to get some guide prices for you from local suppliers.

Jus to clarify the point about use on roads. If you wish to do so then the tractor must be ‘matriculated’, which means being road prepared and with a number plate. And a relatively new law means that you should attend a training course and pass a test - I guess that something close to zero % of the population has done this, at least so far. I could be wrong on this next point, but I think it is difficult to matriculate a non-matriculated tractor and, as has already been mentioned, they are more expensive. If you have a matriculated tractor you can obtain a licence to buy green diesel, which is about 1/3 cheaper than road diesel....but without that card you might still fins a fuel station prepared to sell it to you anyway (another example of the Portuguese way!)

I don’t know if you can buy used oil. Using that might be a serious breach of environmental regulations....something to check out, because if it is a breach it could lead to rather more than a light slap on the wrist.

Your idea of coming across with a container is sheer genius, by the way!
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Old Nov 10th 2019, 3:47 pm
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Default Re: The List is long! New/old 1973 farm House

I agree with what has been said.

Local camaras are VERY twitchy about containers, because they can be used as living space - so, if there is a chance that the container could be seen, remember the policy here is to fine you first and then discuss options.... The "Portuguese way" is fine, if you're prepared to pay the price (and for the hassle of defending yourself in a foreign language).

AFAIK, anything covered (ie a porch, a shed, a kennel a carport or garage) will be classified as expanding your built area - so will need permission, may mean re-evaluation of your IMI AND may just be rejected.

Lastly, be VERY careful about your water heaters and any other heating added....... particularly if it involves the storage of combustible material. Since the bad Fires, there's a lot of focus on possible fonts of fire or accelerants. Again, you can do it and take a chance...... but then you can drive around in an untaxed an uninsured car too!

Find a local architect and pay him for advice - it'll cost a little, but at least then you'll have the benefit of REAL knowledge. They're also not stupid - they know what people do to get around the regs... something you'll never find out.
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Old Nov 10th 2019, 3:51 pm
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Spot on, Macliam.
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Old Nov 10th 2019, 5:56 pm
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Default Re: The List is long! New/old 1973 farm House

I need a workshop and storage area for tractors and farm equipment ... reading between the lines a container is fine providing it can be moved and is not lived in. For the farm and a recon 40ft container with trees all around it seems to be the way to go. Tractor does not need to be road taxed. Kabota25 hp 4wd is the fave tool but in the UK they are silly moneyed ! The distance the tractor will go in the road is from one side to the other 15 ft. I am also bringing my John Deere garden tractor and trailer out and my workshop tools. I want to bring a Aga cooker and a wood burner out from the UK for the house ... Aga I want oil fired and wood for the wood burner in the lounge . I use used cooking and distill my own Bio diesel. and interested if it is allowed in Portugal. We will go solar anyway but just looking at all options. anything to reduce costs of power.
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Old Nov 10th 2019, 6:39 pm
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Default Re: The List is long! New/old 1973 farm House

Originally Posted by NigelH View Post
I need a workshop and storage area for tractors and farm equipment ... reading between the lines a container is fine providing it can be moved and is not lived in. For the farm and a recon 40ft container with trees all around it seems to be the way to go. Tractor does not need to be road taxed. Kabota25 hp 4wd is the fave tool but in the UK they are silly moneyed ! The distance the tractor will go in the road is from one side to the other 15 ft. I am also bringing my John Deere garden tractor and trailer out and my workshop tools. I want to bring a Aga cooker and a wood burner out from the UK for the house ... Aga I want oil fired and wood for the wood burner in the lounge . I use used cooking and distill my own Bio diesel. and interested if it is allowed in Portugal. We will go solar anyway but just looking at all options. anything to reduce costs of power.
I think "looking at all options" is certainly what you need to do - but you also need to forget what you "know" about requirements for anything, based on your experience in the UK or elsewhere.

You speak of using tractors - are you aware that you may be required to undergo "training" and/or licensing to use even the most straightforward of mechanized garden tools in Portugal (e.g. a strimmer or chainsaw)? All gas and electrical installations have to be carried out (or at least certified) by a Portuguese recognized tradesman or your installation will be illegal - and the planning process makes self-build a difficult choice too. Be aware of the local rules and the powers that the local camara and SEPNA have to enforce them - ignore them at your own risk, but don't expect any leniency if you plead ignorance of them or try to argue what is or is not required elsewhere. The Portuguese take a certain pleasure in reminding you that you are NOT elsewhere.

You may even find reasons beyond legality that force you to change your plans - e.g. availability of the materials or resource to do work, (e.g. the availability and cost of anyone to install a ground-source heat pump circuit.) and the almost universal 23% IVA levied on everything you'll need (so be careful about importing things from the UK, lest it be deemed an attempt to avoid tax). Also, be aware that under Portuguese law, as the owner, YOU are liable for the legality of anything on your premises, not the contractor.... the same goes for paying IVA - if queried, it is for YOU to prove that it has been paid.

That's why speaking to someone local to the area makes sense and is likely to save you a lot of time and money in the long run.

Last edited by macliam; Nov 10th 2019 at 6:41 pm.
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Old Nov 10th 2019, 9:42 pm
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Default Re: The List is long! New/old 1973 farm House

Bio-diesel is not allowed for road vehicles in Portugal; there was recently an arrest reported in the papers, it's considered tax evasion. They made a big deal out of it.
I'm fairly sure you could use it legally off road [farm machinery].

You can operate a tractor on the road if the gross weight is not above that which you are licenced to drive [ie, 3.5 ton etc.]
Yes, people have obtained special tractor licenses and I'm in the process myself.

Licencing to operate chainsaws and strimmers? Never heard of such a thing.

I have the card for agricultural fuel; the regulations are quite strict, I'm quite sure no petrol station would sell it without the card. maybe you could find someone with the card to buy for you, but how much will your kubota ever use?
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Old Nov 11th 2019, 12:32 am
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Default Re: The List is long! New/old 1973 farm House

Originally Posted by liveaboard View Post
.......I have the card for agricultural fuel; the regulations are quite strict, I'm quite sure no petrol station would sell it without the card. maybe you could find someone with the card to buy for you, but how much will your kubota ever use?
Nope. The regulations are strict, but the enforcement isn’t.
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