Language
 

How is everyone getting on with Portuguese? I'm doing OKish, but I need a tutor. I'm over in Eastern Algarve for now, does anyone know of one or even use one that they can recommend? Thanks

Re: Language
 

Can't help with real life tutors.
However, I highly recommend the youtube channel ' Portuguese with Leo '.

This has been going for a couple of years now, so if you find the channel there are quite a few videos already uploaded to it.

Apart from language learning, he talks about a large variety of topics, so you learn useful stuff along the way.

It is completely free of upfront charges; however you can donate on his Patreon channel if you wish ( and quite a few people do appreciate the quality of the lessons enough to do so ).

Re: Language
 

Thanks.I'll look into that. My problem is the pronunciation, well a bit more than that but it's definitely an big issue for me. I'm a visual learner so I have to write a word down as it is spelled, then put a vague phonetic word showing pronunciation next ot it, otherwise I have no chance.

Re: Language
 

I learned French and Castilian at school, so it gave me a head start - but my Portuguese is all learned through 30 years of marriage to an Alfacinha whose family speak no English! The problem is that you expect things to sound as they would in English....... but they don't because some letters have a very different sound, so that is the first thing to learn. After that you already know loads of Portuguese words, because they're close to the English equivalents once you know to "alter" them - apart from a few "false friends" which you'll soon learn (puxe, pronounced pooshuh, for pull is one of my favourites!)

However, Portuguese pronunciation is regular, unlike English..... so once you have learned the "rules" it's very predicatble. Unfortunately, through lack of skill or to extend their employment, many tutors don't bother to explain these rules and just lead you through vocabulary a word at a time..... so each seems "odd" when you compare it to what you might expect in English. It's also mind-numbingly boring. Many tutors seem to make a meal (literally) out of teaching the language - but do you want to understand and be understood, or to stand for Parliament? Be wary of any tutor who immediately wants to immerse you in the glories of extended grammar..... and think how badly many english people speak English - it's the same for Portuguese and you can actually get by quite well on the present tense and a bit of acting! No matter how well you learn to speak Portuguese, you'll always stand out as a foreigner, so set your sights on being understood.

Have a look at this https://european-portuguese.info/ - but there are other guides and videos out there. Basiclally, all letters are pronounced in the same way and all words have their stress in the same place..... unless there is an accent to tell you differently (unlike English, where you have to guess!). Therefore an acute accent ove a vowel changes ehat you'd expect to be the "normal" stress pattern for a word of that many syllables, a cedilla under a "c" makes it a soft "s" sound where you might expect it ro be "k", a tilde over the "a" in an "ao" dipthong makes it a nasal "own" sound (with the n swallowed), etc. That's about it - there are few rules and they are pretty constant, so once you learn them, you're set up.

Of course, learning to pronounce things is one thing, recognizing them when they're gabbled at you by a toothless Alentejano at breakneck speed is quite another - but you get used to it! :lol:

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Thanks for this, espectially the rules part, very useful to know. I know it's not going to sound like English in certain words which is why I write down a vague pronunciation next to the word. I forget the pronunciation sometimes when I speak!! I have my basic phrases and usually they are understood, I mean basic though. I have a dog and cannot get the ending for the word right so I use cadella instead, much easier for me to say. I often say 'preciso de' so that I can give the infinitive of the next verb. I am trying to learn conjugatins but the irregular ones are tricky. I learned French at school and I lived in Spain for two years and learned some of the language, Portuguese is something else! I'm not giving up!!!

Re: Language
 

If you learned French, you'll be used to nasalised sounds, like the "n" in "Vin", where the "n" is swallowed...... so the "ão" sound is similar, so "Cão" is pronounced like Cow-n, with the "n" swallowed. The plural is more difficult "Cães" is pronounced like "kine-sh", again with the "n" swallowed. Once you've got it, it's easy and constant... Dão, Pão, São, então .... and of course Não all follow the same rule. The other one that catches the normal Brit is any word ending in "em" like "vem", "Santarem", "bem", etc. not pronounced "em" but more like "eyn" with the nasalized sound for the "n"..... or for the "m" in "bom" - and another reminder is "Bom día", with the nasalized "m" and the accent over the "i" telling you the stress on that word is on the the "i" (deey-ah) as opposed to normal stress on the last syllable (deeyaaaaah).

Once you crack the pronunciation differences, Portuguese is spoken like English.... complete with shotened words, dropped endings and all the rest!!

Keep trying!

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I will, thanks for the info. I've cut and pasted your mini lessons, I need all the help I can get. Are you fluent in Portuguse now?

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I'd have to work a lot more on my grammar to be "fluent" - and that's too much like hard work! My aim is to understand and be understood, rather than to sppeak like a native....

I can hold a conversation and ask for anything I need - and I know enough to be able to explain things I might not know how to say directly (a bit like your Cadella not Cão!!) My vocab and pronunciation are pretty good... so that helps. I can read Portuguese enough understand official documents...other than when they go into pure bureaucrat-speak (but I can recognize that too). When it comes to writing, that's more of a struggle, but I can tailor generated translations to make them sound more "Portuguese", because whilst I might lack the grammar to write things directly, I know enough to know when DeepL makes a pig's ear of what I want to say, or makes it sound Brazilian, rather than Portuguese.

So I get by.....;)

I did have a real problem understanding my 90 year-old neighbour in the Alentejo, but a visiting friend from Lisbon said that he also found it difficult, so that made me feel a lot better!

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I've barely learned any Portuguese in the 12 years I've lived here.
I don't know if I'm really bad at languages (I only lived in an English language country for 12 of my 61 years), or I'm just lazy.

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There isn't an accent in "dia".

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The problem we have found is that the majority of people speak English in Algarve. We have two neighbours, neither 'next door' and are Portuguese. We too can 'get by'. We tool lessons in the UK (teaching Brazilian and all about coffees and cakes) and had private lessons from a Portuguese many years ago who said we were too advanced to start from scratch so pick it up as we go along. What I don't do is deal with medical issues in Portuguese so go private.

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Sorry, you're right :o, I'm thinking Spanish.... I said my written was rubbish! - https://www.portuguesepedia.com/portuguese-word-stress/

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I still split my time between Portugal and the UK, so that doesn't help...... if I was full time in Portugal it would make a difference. One thing I still find difficult is conversing over the phone..... I don't know why. I'm also not sure whether learning Brazilian helps at all..... the pronunciation,vocab, some grammar and overall way of speaking are so different.... certainly more different than the slight differences of pronunciation within Portugal (although the Alentejo has it's own way.... :lol:) - it's another thing I'm not well attuned to - SWMBO can pick out someone from a region, but I don't find it so easy. Luckily there are now some websites dealing specifically with "European Portuguese", though most tend to be Brazilian, just like "English" is often the US version. DeepL as a translator is far better than Google, for example, when set to European.

I agree about "technical" terms.... I still feel more comfortable with these in English, but that's because I doubt my own understanding..... Many Portuguese professionals speak English these days, though their English is sometimes as "interesting" as my Portuguese!

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You're not alone in that. I dislike it intensely, although I usually manage fine once I've steeled myself to it.

I think it's a measure of our normal reliance on non-verbal communication.

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I think you're right..... even talking to my BiL, which is normally easy, becomes a bit stilted (on my side) when speaking on the phone and I'm never very happy with the experience.

However, he's also thereason I'm wary of Brazilian. Early on, trying to be really good, I avoided using "tu" and dared to use "você" with him. The immediate respose was "Eh pá, es brasileiro, ou o quê?!!" :lol:

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Depressingly, Portuguese with Leo is waaaay to hard for me. He said it was at an intermediate level I am only midway (if I'm lucky) through A1.

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That's interesting. I've watched a couple of vids and find his speech really easy to understand, firstly because he's from Lisbon, and secondly because he is used to communicating with foreigners, so enunciates well and speaks slowly.

There's nothing I've watched that I haven't understood so far.... but there are a couple of really good ones. Firstly when he tries to see how many Parisians understand Portuguese - it's great, because they're about as bad as the Brits, even though there are a million Portuguese living in Paris!! Even one whose mother is Portuguese speaks close to zero.... he also alters some words to use synonyms closer to the French words, which can be used in Portugal, but are not the normal ones.

The other is a comparison of different accents within Portugal (and islands)... and whilst I can understand what he says are the differences, I can't really hear them when his friends speak in their accents. I've always thought Portuguese to be quite homogenous, certainly moreso than English - however, it must be said that he's speaking to his young, educated friends who just happen to come from Porto or Madeira, etc..... it would be different speaking to someone older and with less schooling (like my Alentejano neighbour).

If you really have problems understanding what he's saying, then you need some conversational practice.... because knowing the vocab and grammar is little use if you can't understand the replies. Keep trying with Leo... I'm quite impressed and I'll be checking out a few more vids, not because I'm likely to learn overmuch, but it's good practice to keep my ear in whilst I'm in the UK.

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Have you noticed that there is a button you can press for subtitles in Portuguese on some of the Portuguese with Leo videos ?
I suggest you persist with the PWL vids : you don't have to understand on first watching : repeat the watch ( they are generally quite short ) three, five, ten, twenty times if necessary till you get at least some of what he is saying.

He speaks extremely clearly, and at a slightly slower pace than do most Portuguese when they are speaking at normal conversational speed.

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I did say my Portuguese is not brilliant and that I'm not good with the listening side of pronunciaton. I think I'm just not at that level yet so I'm looking for something else. I need a personal tutor or a small group class.

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I have a very acute problem listening to Portuguese.
I have been listening to the television news.
Not to understand what is being said, but with a view to getting used to listening to Portuguese sounds.

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Do either of you speak other languages? Can you "understand" people speaking in languages other than English?

I'll admit it took me a short time to attune my ear to Portuguese when I met SWMBO (I'd had asolutely no exposure to it before then) and some of the sounds were off-putting (all OW and Shhh) - but it was a fairly short time before i realised that much of the grammar was like Castilian and the vocab was familiar (if you allowed for the known Portuguese letter changes - Castilian "l" becomes "r", playa to praia, plaza to praça, etc., words ending "ión" become "ão", construcción to construção, etc.). The nasalized sounds were easier thanks to exposure in French.

Listening to the TV..... especially to things spoken at a rate acceptable to native Portuguese speakers, is always going to be difficult. The diction may be clear and there will be less slang, etc., but it will still use common "shorcuts" like unfamiliar abreviations or references to things only the Portuguese will recognize. When you can do it, you've arrived! The Listen with Leo vids seem good as he speaks more slowly and clearly... and you can have subtitles and repeat the vids over and over. His content seems pretty good too. I'd not watched it before, so I'm impressed. :thumbup:​​​​​� �€‹â€‹

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Just as an addition to this (for those who don't know it) the DeepL translator (https://www.deepl.com/en/translator) is a far better translator than Google translate, because it is able to distinguish between Portuguese and Brazilian.

As an example.... the phrase "John catches the bus and the train every day" translates as "John pega o ônibus e o trem todos os dias" in Brazilian, but as "John apanha o autocarro e o comboio todos os dias" in Portuguese..... showing a difference in both vocabulary and grammar. For those who don't think this makes much difference, have a look at ths vid (and don't get put off by the first minute or so.... put on the English translation and see......)

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I speak a little Spanish and a little French, but not even at intermediate level.
Sometimes I can get get an understanding if I catch a couple of keywords in a sentence. But that does not happen in Portuguese.
The problem is because I don't recognise words that I can already read/write/speak.
This appears more because of the lack of clarity in pronunciation rather than the speed.

Re: Language
 

When you say "lack of clarity", I doubt it..... maybe it's probably just not what you expect from treading a word with an "English" head on? f it was really "lack of clarity", then the Portuguese wouldn't understand each other - and patently, they do.

Portuguese shares many of the faults of English..... words are shortened and slurred, letters are ignored, slang is used, etc., etc. but it has two big advatages over English.... firstly the rules of pronunciation are very regular - if you know the Portuguese rules, you will know how to pronounce a word (no plough or rough, nor care or cart) and the regional differences are very small (there's no really strong regional differences like Tyneside or Glasgow). However, the rules of pronunciation in Portuguese are DIFFERENT to those in English, so they have to be learned.... then you're away. Portuguese vocabulary and grammar is no more difficult than most European languages - and easier than many..... but you really have to get used to hearing and making the sounds that make Portuguese different.

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The trouble for me is, when I speak I see the word written down,it's the way I learn. So copas, becomes copsh, I have to write a rough pronunciation next to the actual written word. I do forget when sepaking and by the time I might have understood a word someone has said, I'm floundering with the rest of the sentence.I can't learn a language without seeing it written down first, I kind of need a hook otherwise it's just a rush of sounds coming at me with no struucture. I am learning the pronunciation first now, it might help.

I listened to the first Leo video, maybe I should give it another go, but I couldn't understand any of it and it was fast for me. I have three years to learn Portuguese if I want to take that citizen test - I think that's right. I'm not giving up. I just can't find a tutor near me.

And thanks for the link to that translation.

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I don't quite understand your first point, as Portuguese is spoken pretty much as it's written.... if you follow Portuguese rules, but obviously not if you don't. You should try Irish for words that really seem disconnected from the written form (but again, only if you don't know the rules).

However, pronunciation and the comprehension of spoken Portuguese is plainly key to you (and many others). I had the same issue, but for a very short time (though I'd lie if I was to say i am never caught out). You asked before about being fluent.... I set a high bar for that and I fall below it because understanding a full conversation sometimes requires a lot of concentration, otherwise it can just flow past. Likewise, conversing in a group of many people can be difficult if everyone talks together.... i'm more a one-to-one conversationalist! I don't know why I didn't have the difficulty with pronunciation that many people seem to have...... maybe it's speaking Hiberno-English and always having to look for other ways to say things!!

Maybe what you need is to converse with someone keen to practice their English..... but your problem might be ensuring that you get what you need, rather than supplying them with a study-aid.

You also have to learn to say "I didn't understand, please repeat it more slowly" then you have the choice of entender, perceber or compreender :lol: The best distinction for these (which all mean "to understand" at some level) is Entender: to understand, Perceber: to note (perceive), Compreender: to comprehend ..... but in reality entender is used as a less formal expression, so "Não entendi o que me disse, por favor repita mais devagar"

Good luck!

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If you want a good Portuguese course that teaches pronunciation and listening skills then the best, imho, are the Michel Thomas method and Talk the Streets. Both aren’t cheap but are amongst the best for getting a real understanding on how to listen and speak like the Portuguese, they will teach you what the other apps and methods won’t.
You can get the Michel Thomas method from a UK library on loan and I think both offer freebies to try,
It takes time and commitment and after 2.5 years I am just starting to get somewhere with it. Trouble is I sound so authentic that the Portuguese think I can speak it fluently and rattle off ten to the dozen at me, I gawp, then they laugh and go back to English. It’s a process lol.

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I too don't find a problem qith the pronunciation of PT words. Though my OH does pick me up if i say a word that he 's not happy with ,i.e Santarem. My UK head just makes me want to say that last M when it should be more or less silent and end up almost pushed up your nose!!! I also seem to be able to read it well enough to get the gist of the subject unless its technical and I'm not interested in the subject!
I've had a look at PT with Leo and quite like it and will give it ago.I try not to read any subtitles underneath to help with my listening skills, and I have found that I can pick up quite a few words when he's speaking. I do have trouble though when my listening/translating speed can't keep up with the conversation and then I'm totally lost.

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I listened to a few videos from Talk the Streets....... Liz speaks Portuguese very well and shows what can be achieved.... this video might also help with a bit of that "lack of clarity"

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Your description "many of the faults of English..... words are shortened and slurred, letters are ignored, slang is used, etc." leads
to what I called "lack of clarity in pronunciation".
Hence my choice of TV news to eliminate some of those problems.
However, there are some announcers that I still do not recognise any words with.

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That's because, as Liz explains, the fact that Portuguese is a stress-timed language, like English and unlike Spanish, means that shortening words, etc. is actually part of the language, not bad diction. Nobody speaks the way it's written any more than anyone speaks English as it's written....

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Thank you for all your help. I am taking Portuguese classes at the local high school and it is not going well. A dozen 50 to 70 year olds all at different Portuguese abilities. The teacher has a very difficult task trying to teach at all levels and some are being left behind.

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Bons, There is an excellent course taught at the Museu in Sao Bras de Alportel (aka the little Museum/community centre) in Sao Bras de Alportel - 6 weekly courses usually 2-3 times yearly. (See the Facebook page ' Amigos do Museu') Its called 'Portuguese in Six Weeks'. The same teacher also offers an online course by the same name - I have this one as well and it is also excellent. There is also a Facebook page for the course itself. I agree however - learning is hard when you don't use the language on a daily basis.

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Amanda’s course is here:
https://portugueseinsixweeks.com/

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Can you speak Portuguese fairly fluently now?

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Thanks

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Nope! But that's my own fault - I don't practise every day and I don't know many Portuguese people to speak to. However it has given me a very good foundation and now that I no longer have to spend most days house hunting I hope to have more time to get back to learning the language and doing the homework. I still access the online course whenever I remember to try and work on it. I certainly feel better informed than I was before I did the course - and had fun along the way. The sounds now mean more when I hear them - if that makes any sense.

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Perfect sense. I'm a bit lazy but I do have my phrases that I can say to people, it's when they speak back at a hundred miles an hour and don't seem to take it on board that I can't speak or understand that much!!