atlasthemonk

Further to my post"habitation license" 6 january 2022. we have signed promissory, paid a deposit and about to pay / sign at the notary....then..i have discovered that one of the old houses with land on the area I am buying does not belong to the man who is selling it.
I have spoken to the genuine owner who confirms this.
Q. how do I find out who ownes the other properties. The Camara cannot give me any information as "I am not the owner". My solicitor who has been dealing with this (for over 6 weeks) obviously not checked. The estate agent ...they just sell for commission and not interested in researching legality. So how can i find out who ownes what?
P.S obviously Im not about to buy until I find out !

Rambling archer

Surely this is exactly what the lawyer (advogado - not Notario) is supposed to be doing? I hope you have a backout clause in the promissary contract? Also the Estate Agent with regard to his/her professional status can only offer for sale on behalf of the owner of the property!!! Does the "genuine" owner want to sell and how do you know he is the actual owner? Sounds like a nightmare developing of there are other potential owners of the rest of the land ... Walk away? At least tackle your lawyer and ask him to confirm the various ownerships before you go further and certainly before you pay his fee !!??!!

coleio

Should be able to get article numbers then get the "land registry" listing which have owner's details. You can get your own "land registry" account but some lawyers n estate agents have. Sounds like you legal adviser is pants.

Loafing Along

There is a service :
https://www.predialonline.pt/PredialOnline/
https://eportugal.gov.pt/servicos/pe...egisto-predial
Your legal representative can access or if you are a registered resident you should be able to as well via your local Loja de Cidadao

liveaboard

Supposedly the information is publicly accessible, and the land office should tell you who the owner is.
In reality, that's not the case; but your lawyer can make them do it.
It's also important to know if there are any liens on the property, easements, or town plans in the works that will affect you.

For some plots, you need to inform abutting landowners because they have first right of purchase after your promissory is signed and a price is established.
That rule can cause trouble!

atlasthemonk

The land registry maps has the houses and land down as 1 lot in a fenced area. But within that area
. there is a thick stone and breeze block building with a fireplace, bread oven ,cart shed of 100m/2 with a prefab (60s/70s) house attached to it. The house is itemized in the promisary but the attached 100m/2 building is not and the previous owner says it is hers and has been paying rates on it for the previous 8 years.
Is the owner in breach of contract for selling the entire plot even tho he is not the owner of a building on the plot ? Or is it my foolishness for not asking why ithe undeclared building was not in the promisery ?

liveaboard

You need to ask your lawyer this question; I don't think the building can be owned by a separate entity to the land it sits on, it sounds to me like someone is trying to pull a fast one on you.

For a land sale to be legal, all the buildings on it have to be clear and legal; the prefab structure you describe is unlikely to be so.

macliam

I stand to be corrected on this, but AFAIK to be legal (and therefore transferrable) a building must be registered at the conservatoria - basically, people do not declare buildings to save tax, build without permission and use storage as habitable space without the correct permissions. However, there are circumstances where people pay tax on things that are not "legal", so proof of taxes is not proof of ownership.

The documents you will need to ensure are correct for a legal purchase are:

The Certidão Permanente (company owned) or Registo Predial (privately owned) is the property registration certificate – Obtained from the Conservatória do Registo Predial (Property Registry Office) which will describe, in detail, the property's legal situation, what makes up the property and its location. It describes the building's structure, who are the registered (ie REAL owners) and importantly, whether the property has any charges on it (encargos), like mortgages or other liens - and whether there are any incomplete or pending registrations. This certificate is valid for 6 months.

The "Caderneta Predial" (Title document) issued by AT Finanças (Tax Authority)- which will identify the property and the owner for tax purposes ONLY. All land and buildings should be identified there, any not covered are not registered for tax purposes. There may be more than one Caderneta associated with a property (building and lands can be registered seperately - Urbana and Rustica - the latter allows NO BUILDING) but everything MUST be documented or it does not form part of the sale and may make the overall sale invalid. Again, be aware that any printed copy is only valid for 6 months.

The Licença de Habitação (usage license). This is issued by the Câmara Municipal (council) for the area where the property is located. It defines the registered type of use allowed for any building or "fraction" - whether that be for living space or storage or commercial. It shows that the property complies with all the legal and regulatory requirements/standards in force at the time of registration (safety, health and technical standards) and that it conforms with the architectural design approved at the time of licensing by the council planning department. Any property built before August 7, 1951 does not need a Licença de Habitação,but only if nothing on the property has been altered or enlarged since that date (unlikely!). Any property without a Licença is NOT LEGAL for habitation orusable for commerce, industry or services.

The Certificado Energético (energy certificate) describes the energy performance of buildings. This certificate is MANDATORY and must be available at the property is put up for sale. Therefore, if no certificate is available, the owner cannot proceed with any sale.

The Ficha Técnica (propert technical file) Obtained from the Câmara Municipal (for any buiding constructied after March 2004).The Ficha Técnica acts as an identification file on the property, with such essential information as the identification of the builder, the suppliers' names and contacts, the description of materials used in the building, the kind of noise and thermal insulations used as well as the regime of guarantee and how to claim under the guarantee when an imperfection is detected.

Floor plans (can be obtained from your architect, the Câmara Municipal, or drawn up by an architect). These aren't a legal requirement, but if changes have been made or are going to be made, they must be approved by the Câmara Municipal and be up-to-date - so seeing the floor plans that the Câmara have and comparing them with what you see on the ground is a good indication of anything "dodgy".

atlasthemonk

Thank you all so far, I think Macliam response above should be printed and framed in all estate agents office.
I have 2 "caderneta predial urbana" describing the prefab area and internals both from the same date ( 2013 ) with 2 different owners.
The shed /building attached to the prefab has a caderneta predial urbana dated the same with the mother of the last owner as the owner.
The notery produced a newly printed run of all the properties on the plot and the shed was not included .