Woodstore

As I mentioned in an an earlier post, UK quitting the EUCARIS system from 1/1/21 means no inter communication with the rest of the EU:

UK holidaymakers will dodge EU speeding fines after Brexit ends cross-border agreement - and drivers from continent can evade penalties in Britain

• The UK's departure from the EU means British-owned cars will not be sent fines
• Hundreds of thousands of Britons have been fined for speeding in recent years
• The change could mean a loss of more than £50million for French government

By Elliot Mulligan For The Daily Mail

Published: 01:29, 13 January 2021 | Updated: 12:00, 13 January 2021

British drivers will escape most European speeding fines because of the end of an agreement for sharing motorists’ information.

An EU cross-border directive required the DVLA to share the contact details of those caught speeding on camera in member states.

But the UK’s departure from the bloc means owners of British-registered vehicles will no longer be sent fines from EU countries.

It also means the DVLA will not be able to request the details of European drivers caught speeding or committing other motoring offences in Britain, The Times reported.

British drivers will escape most speeding fines in Europe means vehicles will no longer be sent fines from EU countries

Hundreds of thousands of Britons have been fined in recent years, with 440,000 penalised last year for offences filmed by roadside cameras in France.

French police requested 555,847 driver details from the DVLA from January 2019 to September 2020, an average of 1,000 a day. The AA warned UK holidaymakers they were being exploited as ‘cash cows’ by French officials who feared they could lose out when Britain left the EU.

Penalties in France, the most popular destination for British drivers, range from £61 to £3,360. These can be levied up to a year after the offence.

The change could result in a loss of more than £50million for the French government if visitor numbers reach their former levels after the pandemic, according to French motoring site Caradisiac.

British drivers in the EU will still face on-the-spot fines if they are stopped by police and found to be travelling too fast.

France and Britain began sharing information about speeding offences caught on camera only last year, despite the EU directive dating back to 2015.

The UK had initially opted out of the scheme, saying the cost of the IT systems and of processing penalties would be higher than the income from foreign drivers committing offences in Britain.

The French government says it wishes to negotiate an agreement with Britain to allow fines to be sent from one country to another. So far no such arrangement has been made.

Woodstore

Errata....’with the rest of the EU‘...should read ‘with the EU‘ !

For completeness, this is my earlier post on the 2 Jan:

From today, UK is now no longer participating in the European Car and Driving Licence Info System. The systemised exchange of info between UK and the EU has ended. Even though a new PT resident can still exchange their UK licence, it’s probably done on a ˜manual request basis...the UK Gov site says to do this ‘asap after 1 Jan’...which probably means time will run out at some point....? Then what?? Some countries require taking a test to get a foreign licence after June ˜21 eg Germany, Cyprus, Austria. Also will traffic offences in PT for UK visitors be no longer replicated on a UK licence?

Importantly, will the UK turn a sovereign blind eye to a Portuguese DL even after an exchange and therefore allow a new replacement UK DL to be applied for and so co-exist together? The extract from the EUCARIS website today:

https://www.eucaris.net

Quote ‘ Due to BREXIT measurements, the UK no longer participates to the VDL, ERRU, RESPER, CBE and VAT services as of the 1st of January 2021.

Situation UK:

Only for the exchange of tachograph card information based on Council Regulation (EEC) no 3821/85 in combination with the respective AETR Agreement, the TACHOnet connection via TESTA will stay available.

All the other EUCARIS/EU-hub services will be disconnected as from the 1st of January.

– VHInfo, DLInfo, AVI (based on the EUCARIS Treaty);

– RESPER (3rd Driving Licence Directive 20016/126/EC);

– ERRU (Regulation (EC) No 1071/2009, 1072/2009, 1073/2009);

– ERRU/RSI-part (Directive 2014/47/EU) ;

– CBE (Directive (EU) 2015/413);

– VAT (Directive 2010/24 EU and 2011/16/EU, Council Regulation (EU) No 904/2010);

RESPER Service

Home/EUCARIS Services

RESPER Service

Legal basis and objectives

The Directive 2006/126/EC requires the common European Union driving licence model to be adopted by the Member States as the single driving licence model. The three basic principles behind the Directive are:

1. Mutual Recognition. The Article 2(1) states that Driving licences issued by Member States shall be mutually recognized.
2. The driving licence is linked to œNormal residence. The Article 12 defines Normal residence” as the place where a person usually lives, that is for at least 185 days in each calendar year, because of personal and occupational ties.
3. No person may hold more than one driving licence as required by Article 7(5).

End Quote.

wellinever

`Importantly, will the UK turn a sovereign blind eye to a Portuguese DL even after an exchange and therefore allow a new replacement UK DL to be applied for and so co-exist together? The extract from the EUCARIS website today:`

This is the biggy as far as I am concerned......if someone that has taken out residency in the EU and lost their UK licence, can they still have a UK licence.
The other thing is at what stage, under current rules, is the UK licence actually cancelled. Surely if it takes IMT months to provide a replacement, then until that has been actually received, why is the UK licence not still valid for use when in the UK....

Bomber Harris

Whilst UK, PT and EU law doesn't legislate against you holding a PT licence and a non EU (UK) licence at the same time, UK law doesn't allow a non UK resident to apply for a licence (initial, replacement or renewal). Take a look at page 3 of DVLA document inf1d which states;
"You can only get a GB driving licence if you are normally resident in the United Kingdom. To be normally resident you must usually live in the United Kingdom for 185 days in each calendar year",
also read the words in section 8 of the D1 (licence application form) immediately above where you sign the D1 form, which are;
"I understand that it is a criminal offence if I make, or anyone else makes, a false declaration to get a licence and to do so can lead to prosecution and a fine of up to £2500."

What neither of those forms state, but is hidden in the relevant legislation that contains the above restrictions is that a driving licence obtained by false declaration is invalid.
Many people are going to tell you they've done it, in which case they either didn't read what they were signing, or they did and chose to ignore what is written.

santaanita

thats fifty percent of expats i know where i live then

wellinever

I understand what the ruling is at the moment but I suspect a lot of Expats that have taken out residency in Portugal, but have a legit address in the UK, spend up to 6 months there a year and hold a UK DL, may well elect to just continue as if they are non resident of Portugal.
UK residents are able to drive on their UK licence for 6 months in a year, with a UK address are able to insure a Portuguese car in Portugal, and if stopped for general police check may well just show UK passport, UK Dl, and correct insurance obtained in Portugal. So other than drive n Portugal on a foreign licence have committed no other crime,in that they have not obtained a licence illegally.
Only issue I guess would be if involved in a serious accident while in Portugal.
But never the less I cannot really see the point in all of this. What is it all about??
If a Portuguese resident or national goes to UK to hire a car, AFAIK, no checks are done on the drivers licence (have they been convicted of speeding, drunk driving, whatever, ) and yet if a UK resident with a full UK licence wants to hire a car they now have to present a special verification that they have not been involved in any of the above....so whats the point in all of this.
What is the problem with holding more than one licence, especially if you took the test in the UK and held a licence there for 50 years or more.
I would have thought it much more approriate if anyone wanting to hold, say for example, a Portuguese licence Must take a test in Portugal, regardless of how long they have held a licence from a different country, and that would include anyone that had exchanged licences without a test.

Woodstore

Interesting. So I live in the UK for minimum of 185 days per year and I have a Portuguese residency as required for being in the PT for more than 3 months. So I can have a UK licence and a PT licence at the same time? If not which rule am I breaking?

wellinever

I think you have seen through the problem that Portugal has with residency.......unlike the UK where you can stay for 6 months without the need for residency, Portugal limits this period to 3 months. The Uk I can understand as its the 183 days that eans you become tax resident, but in Portugal that number is also 183 days, so why have a 90 day ruling for residency.
I am sure someone can shed light on this.
Of course if a non resident of UK goes to UK they can drive on their foreign licence for 12 months !!!

Bomber Harris

The requirement to be a resident in the country issuing the licence, and the EU rule of not holding 2 EU licences and handing over the exchange was to stamp out the practice that used to occur. Driver's on bail for drink driving knowing they were facing a ban would apply for another countries licence, go to court and have his national licence taken by the court then continue to drive and if stopped produce the foreign licence. If the stopping authority did not bother checking the driver's details on the relevant database it would go undetected.
What any of us think the law should be is irrelevant, the laws are what they are and each person can choose to comply with them or risk the consequences of not complying.

wellinever

But Bomber, surely what I have said about foreigners driving a `hire car` in the car in the UK with an `unverified` (at least as far as checking the most recent data about that driver) is concerned and according to what Woodstore sites means that they have no way of checking now the UK has left the EU.
I am not trying to legitimise driving while disqualified but trying to understand the logic behind this, asking why a person cannot have a country licence when they hold, in the case of UK, a British passport and past their driving test in that country and have a permanent home in that country where they spend 49% of the year.
If I spent 210 days out of the UK, in a year, not in one country, but in 3 different ones I would not have to change my licence.
The EU wont even let you take a ham sandwich in now nor one of your 5 a day.

Bomber Harris

Ignoring the PT immigration laws which specify the minimum time you need to spend in PT each year, none until it comes to PT licence renewal time as PT has the same 185 day requirement as the UK (Articles 18 & 19 of the Regulamento da Habilitação Legal para Conduzir).
The Regulamento da Habilitação Legal para Conduzir also states "The driving license obtained based on false declarations or false assumptions or affected by error is canceled". Note 'false assumptions" which I assume means if you apply for a PT licence renewal they "assume" you are applying as a legal resident of PT because you haven't told them you're not. In addition making a false/fraudulent statement on an official document (e.g. driving licence application, residency application) is punishable by up to 2 years in jail under the Penal Code.
I can envisage a complicated time ahead for those people who registered for PT residency pre 31/12/20, without ever intending to become resident, as a means of circumventing the 90 in 180 Schengen rule that applies to Brits from 01/01/21 rather than just applying for a visa extension under the immigration laws.

Bomber Harris

You would have to ask the lawmakers for the answer to that, if I was writing the laws I would keep it simple by just banning anyone from holding any driving licence other than the one issued by the country of their residence which is recognised Internationally, and I say that as someone who at one time had to end up with holding 3 licences, my UK licence registered with IMT as a PT resident, and 2 others from 2 different third countries.

wellinever

Quote from Bomber
I can envisage a complicated time ahead for those people who registered for PT residency pre 31/12/20, without ever intending to become resident, as a means of circumventing the 90 in 180 Schengen rule that applies to Brits from 01/01/21 rather than just applying for a visa extension under the immigration laws.

Well that would be me then Bomber. Wanting to remain in Portugal for 5 months at a stretch, and at the end of the transition, nothing being clear about Health Insurance. A far as I understood it, the UK EHIC would be invalid until some other agreement might be reached with EU countries.
Because of that I had little choice if I wanted to remain in Portugal for more than 90 days.
When you are 71 and with pre existing heart conditions Health insurance is very expensive, for what is less than half a year !!
But with the EHIC now seemingly remaining valid for those of us that have one, I have asked the Br embassy if a UK EHIC card is acceptable by SEF as Health Insurance while in Portugal on an extension, if the answer to that is yes on all counts then I will reconsider my position.

Red Eric

National visas - Temporary Stay

wellinever

so only thing not included in EHIC is repatriation