Go Back  British Expats > Living & Moving Abroad > Europe > Portugal
Reload this Page >

December Lock-Down

December Lock-Down

Old Oct 31st 2020, 5:23 pm
  #16  
Who - me?
 
Red Eric's Avatar
 
Joined: Jul 2014
Location: Arcos de Valdevez "Onde Portugal se fez"
Posts: 13,421
Red Eric has a reputation beyond reputeRed Eric has a reputation beyond reputeRed Eric has a reputation beyond reputeRed Eric has a reputation beyond reputeRed Eric has a reputation beyond reputeRed Eric has a reputation beyond reputeRed Eric has a reputation beyond reputeRed Eric has a reputation beyond reputeRed Eric has a reputation beyond reputeRed Eric has a reputation beyond reputeRed Eric has a reputation beyond repute
Default Re: December Lock-Down

Originally Posted by Lou71 View Post
bons, I take it your husband can't get away from work for a few days to register in Portugal because of the quarantine situation on returning to the UK? Can he not explain his extraordinarily difficult situation at work and take a leave of absence?

Please don't take this the wrong way but no job on this planet would be worth my sacrificing my EU residency rights.

You could come over here yourself and try to obtain residency on his behalf as his wife. You would need to bring your original marriage certificate, his passport, copy of his latest tax return or P60 and any other supporting documentation you can think of. Obviously I don't know if they would accept it but in your situation I would pull out every stop and try absolutely everything to obtain residency.

Why don't you run your situation past a lawyer?
Possibly worth re-stating here that when obtaining a Certificate of Residency as a citizen of an EU member state, you're formally establishing that you are already residing here, as opposed to asking for permission to do so in the future.

The latter is what non EU nationals are required to do when going through the rather more arduous residency visa application process(es).
Red Eric is offline  
Old Oct 31st 2020, 7:02 pm
  #17  
Forum Regular
 
Joined: Mar 2019
Posts: 91
Lou71 has much to be proud ofLou71 has much to be proud ofLou71 has much to be proud ofLou71 has much to be proud ofLou71 has much to be proud ofLou71 has much to be proud ofLou71 has much to be proud ofLou71 has much to be proud ofLou71 has much to be proud ofLou71 has much to be proud ofLou71 has much to be proud of
Default Re: December Lock-Down

Point taken Eric. My thinking was that bons could rent a property immediately (remotely from the UK perhaps?) and then try to obtain residency for herself and her husband based on that. It may be bending the rules slightly but in difficult circumstances, it might be worth a try.

We just turned up in Portugal and took residency immediately but admittedly, we had bought our house 18 months prior to that and had plenty of supporting paperwork. Our lawyer came with us to the town hall and it was a doddle - we will look back on that experience with wistful nostalgia once the transition period ends and residency rules for UK nationals change dramatically.

My personal view is that the UK government should have extended the transition period considering there is a global pandemic. People are finding themselves in impossible situations.

I don't know what else to suggest but I do think it's worth bons consulting a lawyer.
Lou71 is offline  
Old Oct 31st 2020, 8:06 pm
  #18  
BE Enthusiast
 
Joined: Nov 2018
Posts: 449
bons is an unknown quantity at this point
Default Re: December Lock-Down

Stuffed until December, can't leave home but for essentials.

Last edited by bons; Oct 31st 2020 at 8:10 pm.
bons is offline  
Old Oct 31st 2020, 11:44 pm
  #19  
BE Forum Addict
 
Joined: Jul 2009
Location: Belfast & Luz
Posts: 1,136
RichardHenshall has a reputation beyond reputeRichardHenshall has a reputation beyond reputeRichardHenshall has a reputation beyond reputeRichardHenshall has a reputation beyond reputeRichardHenshall has a reputation beyond reputeRichardHenshall has a reputation beyond reputeRichardHenshall has a reputation beyond reputeRichardHenshall has a reputation beyond reputeRichardHenshall has a reputation beyond reputeRichardHenshall has a reputation beyond reputeRichardHenshall has a reputation beyond repute
Default Re: December Lock-Down

Could you not leave before Thursday?
RichardHenshall is offline  
Old Nov 1st 2020, 7:56 am
  #20  
Who - me?
 
Red Eric's Avatar
 
Joined: Jul 2014
Location: Arcos de Valdevez "Onde Portugal se fez"
Posts: 13,421
Red Eric has a reputation beyond reputeRed Eric has a reputation beyond reputeRed Eric has a reputation beyond reputeRed Eric has a reputation beyond reputeRed Eric has a reputation beyond reputeRed Eric has a reputation beyond reputeRed Eric has a reputation beyond reputeRed Eric has a reputation beyond reputeRed Eric has a reputation beyond reputeRed Eric has a reputation beyond reputeRed Eric has a reputation beyond repute
Default Re: December Lock-Down

Originally Posted by liveaboard View Post
If you bring someone in on a family visa, the resident person has to be able to show sufficient income to support the new émigré; his/her income is not taken into account.
Originally Posted by bons View Post
I didn't know that, that changes our plans.
It may be purely academic now as far as bons is concerned, given the impending circumstances with regard to travel.

However, I can't see that this could possibly apply in the case of an EU citizen who is the spouse of a resident and has means of their own, and therefore ought not to apply in the case of one protected by the WA. What would be of prime importance would be the spousal relationship and the fact that one of the couple has established residency, as opposed to the direction of any financial dependency, so any means requirement ought to be able to be satisfied by either partner.

This is from Your Europe's page on the matter with regard to Portugal.
Family members of EU citizens who are themselves EU nationals and who are staying in Portugal for longer than 3 months must apply for a registration certificate (Certificado de Registo) to formally establish their right of residence.

After spending 3 months in Portugal, citizens have 30 days in which to register and be issued with a registration certificate.

The following are considered to be family members for this purpose: spouses, relatives in the descending line up to the age of 21, relatives in the descending line aged over 21 who can prove that they are dependants, and relatives in the ascending line who are dependent on the rightholder.

Applications should be made to the applicant's local town hall (Câmara Municipal).The following documents are required:
  • a valid identity document
  • a document showing that the applicant is a family member or partner (if the identity document does not make this relationship clear)
  • the registration certificate of the EU citizen whom the applicant is accompanying or joining
  • Where applicants are directly related in the descending or ascending line to the EU citizen on whom they are dependent and are aged over 21, they must also provide a document establishing that they are dependent on the EU citizen whom they are accompanying or joining.
  • Where applicants have any other kind of family relationship with the EU citizen, they must also provide a document issued by the competent authority of their country of origin or the country from which they have arrived certifying that they are dependent on the EU citizen or that they live with that person, or prove that they have serious health problems which demand the personal assistance of the EU citizen.

Generally, the registration certificate (Certificado de Registo) is issued immediately and remains valid for 5 years. It must not cost more than the identity document issued to Portuguese citizens - currently EUR 7.50 for children under the age of 6 and EUR 15 for everyone else.
Registering EU family members in another EU country – Portugal

You'll note there's a difference there between some family members and others with regard to any requirement for proof of dependency (and therefore how one might expect any means requirement to be appropriately satisfied)

This is completely different to the information given about reunification of non-EU family.

Last edited by Red Eric; Nov 1st 2020 at 7:58 am.
Red Eric is offline  
Old Nov 1st 2020, 8:28 am
  #21  
BE Enthusiast
 
Joined: Nov 2018
Posts: 449
bons is an unknown quantity at this point
Default Re: December Lock-Down

I am still hopeful that this lockdown will end on December 2nd and that Portugal doesn't go into a two week lockdown, we can come then. Even if Portugal does go into a two week lockdown, we will still have time. I'm hoping...
bons is offline  
Old Nov 1st 2020, 8:51 am
  #22  
BE Enthusiast
 
Joined: Nov 2018
Posts: 449
bons is an unknown quantity at this point
Default Re: December Lock-Down

Originally Posted by RichardHenshall View Post
Could you not leave before Thursday?
It's not a nice prospect being in a foeregn country alone. Ministers have said the lockdown could be extended if R does not come down. I could end up being alone for a few weeks. I'm still not sure if I would have to be able to support my husband when he comes early next year, and I can't. From the income point of view I think we'd be better on a D7 visa as I would be able to support myself and so would he.

Last edited by bons; Nov 1st 2020 at 8:56 am.
bons is offline  
Old Nov 1st 2020, 10:36 am
  #23  
BE Forum Addict
 
liveaboard's Avatar
 
Joined: Jun 2012
Posts: 2,384
liveaboard has a reputation beyond reputeliveaboard has a reputation beyond reputeliveaboard has a reputation beyond reputeliveaboard has a reputation beyond reputeliveaboard has a reputation beyond reputeliveaboard has a reputation beyond reputeliveaboard has a reputation beyond reputeliveaboard has a reputation beyond reputeliveaboard has a reputation beyond reputeliveaboard has a reputation beyond reputeliveaboard has a reputation beyond repute
Default Re: December Lock-Down

Originally Posted by Red Eric View Post
It may be purely academic now as far as bons is concerned, given the impending circumstances with regard to travel.

However, I can't see that this could possibly apply in the case of an EU citizen who is the spouse of a resident

The premise is that bons would register as an EU citizen before Dec. 31, but Mr. Bons would arrive next year; no longer an EU citizen.

Anyway, the fact that the incoming [non EU] emigrant's income is not taken into account is how it was presented to us by SEF some years ago. We were able to satisfy that criteria so we didn't investigate further.
Maybe there are exceptions.
I suggest consulting an immigration lawyer; it will likely cost less than a plane ticket.

Lockdown of both countries for November likely made the decision simple; come over together in December.
liveaboard is offline  
Old Nov 1st 2020, 10:45 am
  #24  
BE Enthusiast
 
Joined: Nov 2018
Posts: 449
bons is an unknown quantity at this point
Default Re: December Lock-Down

So would I have to be able support both of us if I came now and he came next year? What's the latest on Portugal and a lockdown?

Mr Bons is suggesting I come before Thursday now. He's trying to get rid of me!!! I told he might not see me for weeks!!!

Also, is there a chance that this family renunion thing might not exist for us after the Transition period?

Last edited by bons; Nov 1st 2020 at 11:00 am.
bons is offline  
Old Nov 1st 2020, 3:00 pm
  #25  
Just Joined
 
Joined: Nov 2020
Posts: 5
almeirim is an unknown quantity at this point
Default Re: December Lock-Down

Surely it is necessary to look at what the restrictions on travel actually say. They speak of no international travel that is for a holiday or to visit a second home. They also speak of exceptions to permit travel such as work requiements. Someone (such as me) who already has an escritura deed processing this week and has 90% of possessions already at the property in Alrmeirim de Fazendas and also is set to not only have a PERMANENT home their but also setting up a business and therefore is moving to meet EU residency deadlines has to be considered ESSENTIAL travel. Especially when a commitment to leave the existing home before the end of the year has already been given.

Furthermore, the mode of travel would be by car, no airport, no plane, no contact with any person due to COVID risk. It is a one way drive with simply stop-offs at pay at pump petrol stations on the way. The travel has been scheduled to get to Almeirim before the cut-off period to process EU applications is made by the end of the first week of December.

I have written an e-mail to my legal advisor for the property purchase and who is due to oversee the EU residency/ NHR application booking process and asked if they send a confirmatory letter of the permanent relocation, domestic and business move as means to meet the exception clause.

It is possible to travel during the lockdown period - it is simply the case that good evidence of the reason to travel in exceptional circumstances are provided. I think its important to state this for balance and to also provide opportunity for people to do what is necessary. It does not say that under no circumstances at all can international travel can be made, and the discussion so far seems to be either making that assumption and/or drawing premature conclussions.

For my own part I am going to try to throw every piece of evidence I can to leave the UK over the coming few weeks and also so that others do not give up hope without doing the same
almeirim is offline  
Old Nov 1st 2020, 3:38 pm
  #26  
Just Joined
 
Joined: Nov 2020
Posts: 5
almeirim is an unknown quantity at this point
Default Re: December Lock-Down

Originally Posted by bons View Post
So would I have to be able support both of us if I came now and he came next year? What's the latest on Portugal and a lockdown?

Mr Bons is suggesting I come before Thursday now. He's trying to get rid of me!!! I told he might not see me for weeks!!!

Also, is there a chance that this family renunion thing might not exist for us after the Transition period?
I don't blame you for your considerable anxiety, and any idea of going alone.

I would personally do as I am trying to do and get a legal rep to put together a letter/ a statement of evidence to show that your need to travel (both you and your husband) is predicated on essential relocation which is permanent, and is BOTH domestic AND business related. This directly meets the wording of the government exception clause as dictated in the lockdown announcement given. On that basis you should be free to travel on the basis that routes out of the UK are not blocked off and all subsequent travel is transit to final destination.

It also provides something of a get out of jail antidote in the very worst case scenario that the lockdown is extended from 2 December (which is quite a distinct possibility) and completely scuppers the remaining Brexit transition time.
almeirim is offline  
Old Nov 1st 2020, 4:40 pm
  #27  
Forum Regular
 
Joined: Aug 2009
Location: Wales/Ribatejo
Posts: 291
toots sweet has a reputation beyond reputetoots sweet has a reputation beyond reputetoots sweet has a reputation beyond reputetoots sweet has a reputation beyond reputetoots sweet has a reputation beyond reputetoots sweet has a reputation beyond reputetoots sweet has a reputation beyond reputetoots sweet has a reputation beyond reputetoots sweet has a reputation beyond reputetoots sweet has a reputation beyond reputetoots sweet has a reputation beyond repute
Default Re: December Lock-Down

Good Luck!
We are near Salvaterra de Magos....
toots sweet is offline  
Old Nov 1st 2020, 5:17 pm
  #28  
Who - me?
 
Red Eric's Avatar
 
Joined: Jul 2014
Location: Arcos de Valdevez "Onde Portugal se fez"
Posts: 13,421
Red Eric has a reputation beyond reputeRed Eric has a reputation beyond reputeRed Eric has a reputation beyond reputeRed Eric has a reputation beyond reputeRed Eric has a reputation beyond reputeRed Eric has a reputation beyond reputeRed Eric has a reputation beyond reputeRed Eric has a reputation beyond reputeRed Eric has a reputation beyond reputeRed Eric has a reputation beyond reputeRed Eric has a reputation beyond repute
Default Re: December Lock-Down

Originally Posted by liveaboard View Post
The premise is that bons would register as an EU citizen before Dec. 31, but Mr. Bons would arrive next year; no longer an EU citizen.
Very true.

However, what I was gewtting at was that the WA confers existing rights under EU law on family members who are not yet resident, which ought, to my mind, to leave room for the post Brexit arriving spouse to be treated either as a financial dependent or qualifying in their own right when it comes to satisfying any means of subsistence qualification. That, after all, is the status quo which the WA seeks to preserve to a large extent for affected citizens.

I could be mistaken though. I haven't seen anything explicit enough on the topic of how any financial requirement criteria can be applied under these exact circumstances.
Red Eric is offline  
Old Nov 1st 2020, 6:29 pm
  #29  
BE Enthusiast
 
Joined: Nov 2018
Posts: 449
bons is an unknown quantity at this point
Default Re: December Lock-Down

We know of some people who went to Portugal on holiday and they can't get a flight back now.
bons is offline  
Old Nov 2nd 2020, 8:16 am
  #30  
BE Enthusiast
 
Joined: Nov 2018
Posts: 449
bons is an unknown quantity at this point
Default Re: December Lock-Down

Originally Posted by Lou71 View Post
bons, I take it your husband can't get away from work for a few days to register in Portugal because of the quarantine situation on returning to the UK? Can he not explain his extraordinarily difficult situation at work and take a leave of absence?

Please don't take this the wrong way but no job on this planet would be worth my sacrificing my EU residency rights.

You could come over here yourself and try to obtain residency on his behalf as his wife. You would need to bring your original marriage certificate, his passport, copy of his latest tax return or P60 and any other supporting documentation you can think of. Obviously I don't know if they would accept it but in your situation I would pull out every stop and try absolutely everything to obtain residency.

Why don't you run your situation past a lawyer?
I know what you mean about the job, but the company he works for received a grant form the Government to formulate a rapid test for Covid 19. It's a small company and couldn't manage without him and would scupper the research and they have to show all test results and details, so it is jut not possible for him to travel. The company has also applied for a 3 month extension which is why we were hoping to come early December so that he could quarantine over the Christmas period, then be ready to start the extension which has to be completed by the end of March next year. I doube taking his details would work as you have to be there in person.
bons is offline  

Contact Us - Archive - Advertising - Cookie Policy - Privacy Statement - Terms of Service - Do Not Sell My Personal Information -

Copyright © 2018 MH Sub I, LLC dba Internet Brands. All rights reserved. Use of this site indicates your consent to the Terms of Use.