AdeV

Hi, newbie here, I've read some of the posts here but haven't found a post which exactly answers the questions I have, so apologies in advance if it's because I've missed them...


I've found, and want to buy, a reasonable sized packet of land, in amongst the hills north of Albufeira. It's (apparently) split into 2 plots; an urban and a rustica plot. There's enough urban for a decent sized house (over 700sq.m if the document is to be believed). The rustica area is quite a bit larger, I have no plans or desire to build on it, but would like the odd fruit/olive tree...

So, I guess the question is, how do I make sure I'm not buying something worthless (i.e. no urban)? I have a photocopied piece of paper from the agent with what looks like a valid CÂMARA MUNICIPAL DE LOULÉ statement showing the maximum sq.m development + maximum footprint (Coeficiente de ocupação do solo).

Apparently outline planning permission was granted for a large villa in the past, but has now expired. I'd be more interested in building a traditional-style house to fit in with the rest of the village. There's electricity poles & telephone poles on the property already. I am told there is a sewer, and a borehole for water; I guess I could drill my own borehole if necessary?

I have friends who live in the area who can presumably recommend lawyers & suchlike, but I figured I'd ask here first - what's the quickest way to go about ascertaining the plot is being correctly described by the agent (who, I presume, is largely going by the owner's description)? Am I likely/unlikely to get permission to build a house (not huge, not overtly "touristy") in a small village (40ish properties at a guess, at present) on the urban section of the plot? Are there any particular pitfalls to watch out for when buying plots?

There's no evidence of a ruin, but lots of dry-stone walling, and loads of stones/rocks which might once have been assembled into some more walls.

Thanks & if the above seems a bit scatterbrained, I got distracted a few times while writing it...

Cheers!
Ade.

peterfc

Hi Ade

First welcome to the Forum.

The only answer that you at is the one that the Camara/ engineers department can give. Members can tell you what has happened to them but for an accurate answer go to the Camara.

Good luck with your plans.

Peter " Dreams can come true "

GeniB

Hi Ade…..welcome to the forum….

We bought an established villa here in the Algarve 3 yrs ago…Your situation is somewhat different in that you will be buying land…and land that (apparently?) is split into two different sections…
My advice would be to get a good Lawyer ,not recommended by the agent..It doesn't imply distrust…just common sense to keep the two interests separate.
We found ours through our renting agent who became a good friend with many long term connections and business interests in the Algarve.so she knew who was influential….more important in our opinion.. in a country that is still influenced too much by 'backhanders' than they should be
Do your homework in the village…ask the neighbours about the previous owner(s) If it turns out ,for instance ,that the 'ruin' is owned by several members of a family you could have a long drawn out battle on your hands! quite typical here…some want to sell..others don't…There are some fantastic properties crumbling to dust because of family rows or greed
Don't want to put you off here…I am sure this will be straightforward…but it pays in the long run not to take short cuts. good luck

EMR

If the existing outline planning permission is out of date you will have to submit a new and complete project, full architects drawings etc.
The Caderneta Predial which you can obtain from the Camare will give you the extact and detailed location of the plots, their designation, Urban Rustic etc. If Urban it should indicate the size of building that can be constructed.
But this is not PERMISSION to build just what can be done.
You will need full project approval , a licenced builder etc, etc to get your Aviso.
Be prepered for a lengthy process. We bought a plot on an urbanisation and it still took almost 2 years before we could start building.

AdeV

Thanks for the replies so far, much appreciated

GeniB - apparently, the current owner is English; I have no idea if this will make the process easier or harder, although it should reduce the language barrier...

I can't see any evidence of past building on the site, other than a mysterious circular stone wall about 8" high, about 20ft diameter; and a number of drystone walls. I presume it was once part of a smallholding, or something like that. Of course, that's all pure conjecture...

EMR - yes, I understand it's not permission, just a suggestion of what's likely to be acceptable. I do have a piece of paper for the urban plot which seems to suggest 700+sq/m allowable build on a 200+sq/m footprint. TBH, a lengthy process suits me, if I buy it's going to be 2-3 years before I can really afford to build. I'd probably clear an access way, and put a caravan on site to begin with, just as somewhere to come & stay periodically while I get my English life boxed off.

Joao

My first advice would be to get yourself an honest lawyer completely separate from the agent selling the land,
You say you have a copy of the Cadaneta Predial this is a registration doc of the land rustic and the building which is urban. This doc may well be out of date in correct measurements and will need to be rectified. You need to ask the agent if the land has had a recent, within the last six years, topographical survey done and has the agent got a copy of this. If the land is being sold by an elderly person or family member who has inherited this property it well be that the registration doc you have a copy of is out of date, and the areas shown on the registration doc could be wrong. If he has not got a copy of the topo survey then beware.
Priory to seller placing the land/property with an agent for sale ALL the docs relating to the land/property must be up to date and registered correctly in the land registrary this is found in the Conservatoria building.
If there is a bore hole on the land the seller must hold a licence to have drilled the bore hole and if there is a pumps down the bore hole then also a licence to pump water is needed. These licences are issued by the department of water in Faro.
Electricity, if is is connected to a metre, (contador) which I doubt, this also will require a certificate which is available from the power company (EDP).
All these licences and the topo and to be corrected in the land registrars cost quite a lot of money for old Portuguese people and therefore they often haven't got all the paperwork up to date.
A good lawyer would instruct the seller to get this done. In times gone by (and sometimes still occurring ) the purchaser get stuffed with having to get all this documentation corrected.
I could go on with loads more advice having been in the property business in Portugal for ten years, personally bought lived in and sold on five house, bought land and built my own house, your must be careful. I strongly advise you to pay for a good lawyer it is money well spent!!!!!! Use a licenced estate agent, surveyor, architect, lawyer, builder, don't use cowboys
Good luck
Joao

EMR

Joao is 110% right, the nationality of the owner does not matter , if fact not being Portuguese could mean that they were orignally sold something that is not 100% kosher.
As for living on the site this is also not straight forward some councils take a dim view of this and will not permit it until the build is complete.
Do your homework and get eveything checked and double checked.

AdeV

So, in a nutshell:

1) Get a good lawyer (anyone want to recommend one in the Loulé/Albufeira area, by PM would be preferred)

2) Make sure everything is what it's claimed to be before putting any money anywhere (except in the Lawyer's hands, obviously)

Basically, not that different from the UK really.

As regards living on-site, I wouldn't be there for any length of time prior to the building work starting, which is obviously not going to happen prior to getting full planning permission.

I'm not an idiot - just not fully educated on all the nuances of what's involved in buying/building in Portugal, yet. I'd also like to think I'm not your typical retiring ex-pat: I'm not, I may be the wrong side of 40, but I will still need to work for the next 20-ish years to make myself comfortably off. Fortunately, my current work can be undertaken from wherever there is a decent internet connection. I'd quite like to integrate into the Portugese way of life - "go native" as the saying goes. I certainly expect to learn the language ASAP. I'd like to be able to chat to the neighbours, not end up being the isolated Brit abroad...

EMR

Do not pay any money to anyone until you are 110% satisfied even your lawyer.
The onus to prove legality is on the seller if they cannot do this walk away. there is no shortage of properties and plots that can be built on without any issues.

GeniB

Sounds like you have the perfect attitude to be a successful ex-pat in Portugal AdeV…willing to be open to advice..willing to learn the.language..and gathering all available info before you take another step..
As a long term ex-pat (30+ yrs in the Netherlands before Portugal) I found it hard at times to return to being the pupil..being taught everything like a 5yr old…took me three yrs to learn basic Dutch….and now I have started all over again learning Portuguese…Your far from being an idiot…your a very wise person…take all this advice and make your own mind up..every case is unique…

AdeV

Appreciate that, but I would trust the seller as much as I would trust a seller in the UK - i.e. I don't. I'm going to get my own searches done, etc. Ultimately, if I buy a crock, I want to be able to blame no-one but myself - but I want to be able to sue everybody else anyway

Speaking of lawyers - anyone got any opinions of Ronald Swyer (1st google search that wasn't a paid ad that I found). By PM would be preferred, I don't want anyone posting stuff in public that might be later actioned. I am also hoping to speak to some contacts I have in Portugal who might be able to recommend someone.

GeniB - thanks for your kind words The language is the scariest part (HOW many accents? And since when did "s" sound like "sh"!?), although that's less of a problem on the Algarve, I feel very embarrassed for not even being able to try to speak the language - expect for a few words I've managed to pick up using an iPhone app...

GeniB

Thats the worst part AdeV….Most ex-pats in NL wouldn't even try!! total loss of face being the reason…many couldn't speak a word of Dutch after 30 yrs and boy were they ripped off ..Saying 'Oh the Dutch speak English anyway' wasn't the point…and it isn't here…..as it wouldn't be in the UK….Humour is the key..we mumble along and smile…get corrected…and remember for the next time…Can't tell you how much better the service is you get and the pointers to this and that you would never find if we had asked in English.
Can't help you on a lawyer in Albufeira…we have an excellent one here in Lagos…success in finding one

liveaboard

After 20 years in the Netherlands, I suddenly understood Dutch. Well, quite a lot of it anyway.
After 5 years in Portugal... not much has penetrated my thick skull so far.

Regarding plot buying and house building. It's a loser.
A house that's already built will cost less, and you won't have years of frustration and anxiety while struggling for the planning permission.

Given that, I completely understand that many people will want to build their own house anyway.
The problem is, the more creative [and rewarding] your architectural plan, the more trouble you'll have getting it passed.

The actual construction is a dawdle if you have a good builder.

AdeV

@liveabroad - heh, I've watched enough Grand Designs to know that something "wild" will bring nothing but grief and anger... and poverty, most likely.

I'll be very happy with a simple house, in the Portuguese style (which appears to be mostly rectangular white box with red roof), so long as I can have a swimming pool out back & a dirty big workshop/barn/garage nearby.

I agree about buying something that's already built, but (but but but... there's always a but...): a) this is the place I want to spend the rest of my life, pretty well. I want it to meet my exact needs, not someone else's., and b) the plot I have in mind is HUGE. Like 40 acres, nearly. Of which a good 7 acres are "urban" (if the estate agent is correct) & therefore can be built on... Which - again, subject to the estate agent being correct - in theory allows up to 4 buildings to be built... Not that I'd want 4. 2 will do me fine (the urban land is 2 separate plots), 1 to live in, one for friends/family & maybe to earn a small income as a holiday let. Again, simple is my watch word, I'm not intersted in some humongous villa with 100 rooms. based on past experience, I could easily live with a 100sqm bungalow; so long as I can also have my 250sqm workshop nearby.

I think what I'm trying to say is: I'm not doing this to make money, or to have a holiday home, or anything like that. I plan to live in Portugal 100% of the time, quite happy to pay taxes in PT, etc., I'll even give up my British citizenship if necessary (if the UK really does quit Europe). But, I can't just up & move "just like that". It was always a 5 year plan...

liveaboard

It's the time and aggravation of the paperwork that really tips the scale in my opinion.
I was looking for pretty much what you describe; a simple house with water, land, and a big workshop; which I pretty much got.
I wanted to be near [+- 5 km] the west coast though, for the climate.

We bought a decently built farm house with power, water, and habitation license, and basically hollowed it out.
We supported the roof and tore down all the internal walls, dug out the floor, put in new plumbing, electrics, and floor heating.
Not because it was easier or cheaper than building new, but because I didn't have to deal with or wait for any paperwork or permissions.
I did move a window a few feet [to work with the kitchen remodel] and I asked for and got permission for a big garage door.

Location is always the most important thing, so if you have the spot you really love, that has the qualities and amenities you want / need, then it's likely the wait and strife will all be worthwhile in the end.

But if you can get a house that already has it's paperwork and fits the bill, give it some thought.