EsuriJohn

Spot on the TOLLS START at the Monte Gordo on slip and you are logged before the Tavira off slip so if you are going from the Border Bridge to Tavira if you do not leave at the Monte Gordo slip you will pay a toll until the Tavira slip. This will no doubt all be explained when the new sign at the Tourist Info lay-by is unfurled.

DickieJarv

Assuming the Portuguese DoT are trying to encourage drivers to continue using the A22 once tolls are introduced do you know where visitors from Spain can acquire a device as they are driving into Portugal and before they enter the Toll section? Also where they can return it assuming they will still be leaving Portugal on the A22? Where I live there are many Spanish day-tripers to Portugal but they may be put off by a lot of hassle let alone the cost.

EsuriJohn

The recommended method would be to call at the first motorway service station. That would be Olhau well inside the toll zone. A new shop has opened in the Tavira shopping centre called via verde (I think) and you can get them there but you will have to leave the motorway at the Monte Gordo exit and go along the N125 to Tavira.

lagosguy

And doubtless those shops will have a stock of dozens or possibly hundreds of devices that the Spanish visitors will require each day when they divert from the A22. I don't think so somehow.

So what do we think the average Spanish tourist will do when the tolls are introduced? Go to the trouble of hunting down a shop that hires them out and hope they have one available. Or don't take the chance and stay the other side of the border, where the sun and sand and scenery are pretty similar. I know what I'd do.

As regards car-hiring tourists traveling back to Faro Airport along the A22, I still haven't seen any suggestion as to how they will be able to avoid being penalised for non-payment, when, through no fault of their own, they can't pay the toll before flying home. It seems that all will depend on how each hire company chooses to respond to the tolls. That is a recipe for chaos.

If the local economy has dived by 20% up north since the tolls were introduced (see most recent Portugal News), are there any guesses as to how far it will dive on the Algarve when tourists stay closer to their resorts and don't bother to visit the Algarve Shopping Centre or Sealife Centre, or indeed the western end beyond Lagos because of the additional cost of the tolls? Faro itself could have a problem if visitors number dropped. The last time I visited the town a couple of months ago I was struck by the number of empty shops in the centre and the tiny number of shoppers. If you are looking for a day's sightseeing and shopping, Faro isn't any longer the place to go.

I went to the Portimao Retail Park and Aqua Shopping Centre, Algarve Shopping and the Forum Algarve today and they were all pretty empty. I flew over last week and SWMBO flew over today (I had a slow drive up the N125 to pick her up and hit the retail parks on the way) and both our flights were nowhere near full, even though UK schools have broken up. If the Algarve is going to prosper, survive even, it has to continue attracting tourists. I don't know whether it's simply that after so many decades as a top tourist destination the powers that be take it for granted; but, if they do, they are in for a rude awakening. This year and possibly next, the Algarve will benefit (as Spain apparently is already) from the problems in north Africa. Once normal business has resumed over there, the tourists will also return unless they can be encouraged to make the Algarve their destination of choice.

I was chatting about this the other day and it was suggested that the relatively small additional cost represented by the tolls would not make much of an impact when the cost of a holiday for a family was up in four figures. That may be right as far as this chap's own business is concerned. But that fact is that tourists always have a holiday budget. And if they have to spend a proportion of that budget on tolls, even if the cost is hidden within the cost of the airport to resort transit charge, they won't have it to spend on other things.

I've often thought what a shame it is in the UK that really talented people don't go into politics. Instead we get crooks and spivs and those who aren't capable of doing anything else and then we wonder why the country fares so badly. The same seems to apply in Portugal. Anyone with a modicum of foresight can see that the income that will be generated by the smaller number of motorists who continue using the A22 will be offset, possibly even exceeded, by damage to the local economy, vastly increased maintenance costs of the N125, increased deaths and injuries on the N125 and a massive deterioration in the quality of life of anybody living on or close to the A22. Why can't the government see it too? And the argument that the A22 must have tolls because the other SCUT roads already have them is just plain silly. The Algarve is not like the rest of Portugal. To be blunt, without tourism it has nothing.

DickieJarv

Speaking to a few of my friends and neighbours over here (Islantilla) they simply won't bother. I need to get to Faro airport occasionally but they don't. Trying to hire a transponder from Olhau services (without being fined on the way) or Tavira at €77.00 (inc. deposit) for a day trip is a non starter. I still don't understand how you would be able to hand it back in at the motorway services and carry on the A22 to the bridge. I'm only in my 40's but it seems mind-boggling!!

The_Hog

I still don't see how they will enforce fines on foreign registered vehicles. They don't do it for speeding or other traffic violations so what makes you think they will do it for motorway tolls - which are a civil debt not a criminal offence?
The Police won't be stopping vehicles randomly to see if they have a transponder or not. Let's face it, you rarely see the police on the A22 anyway!

DickieJarv

I totally agree with you and said the same thing earlier on but apparently the national databases between countries are now linked so it is possible to issue cross border charges/fines. How they enforce it if you refuse to pay is another matter? I can't see the Spanish/British authorities for example getting too involved. A friend of mine got a €150 speeding fine here the other week. She has UK plates so they took her to a cash point, muchas gracias.

MikeJ

European databases are not linked - they are not allowed to be - but the authorities can exchange information through Europol for security and law enforcement. However, they do not need to if what happened to me in Italy is carried out here (and we can thank Ken Livingstone for this wheeze as he set it up to recover congestion charges). The highway operator "sells" the fine to a UK debt agency who will have an account with DVLA to get the keeper's address for UK registered vehicles. This UK agent can then pursue you for the debt in the UK - even using the UK courts as it has become a UK civil debt.
What is really unfair about this is that is only the UK who have in our own inimitable way implemented the system so well that it works - most other member states have 'gone through the motions' but their systems are still a long way off being able to do this.

EsuriJohn

The EU in the last 3 months have introduced regulations to enable cross border enforcement of debt much easier and this is already being used to enforce civil debt such as mortgage arears it also applies to motoring offences and the various DVL agencies of Governments are now sharing information on a daily basis. In Spain the speed cameras are now linked by hi-speed data to police cars stationed to pull over offenders with non-Spanish plates for instant fines. It would be easy for Portugal to copy.

The absence of Police cars on the A22 was a decision taken last year to remove all motorway patrols nationaly and replacee them with cameras we are just lucky there do not seem to be any yet on the eastern length of the A22.

Joao

I think the answer is to wait a couple of years while they sort it all out then start your holidays again!!!
Joao

Redflag

In Spain the speed cameras are now linked by hi-speed data to police cars stationed to pull over offenders with non-Spanish plates for instant fines. It would be easy for Portugal to copy

the phrase piss up and brewery comes into mind

Dafty

Absolutely spot on Joao !
Don,t know what all the fuss is about anyway, after all, why do tourists need to use the A22. They,re tourists !!!!! Not going to see much sat on a motorway are they, and why all the rush to get from a to b? Use the b roads, far more entertaining and exciting and if anyone,s worried about the safety factor - catch the train !!!! Stop b****y moaning and get on with it.

lagosguy

Not sure if your post was intended to be a sensible contribution. But assuming it was... the N125 is quickly going to become a mobile car park east of Algarve Shopping and nobody will be going anywhere on it fast. Tourists trying to use it to get around the area will quickly give up an stay in their resorts. As for the train, you clearly don't use it much, because it runs inland well away from the coastal strip and most of the stations are nowhere near where the tourists stay.

Monkeynut

Hi Folks
September is almost here, does anyone know if there is a firm date set yet for the tolls to start?

Carol&John

I read on the facebook page of the protest group (Algarve-Portagens na A22 nao) that the Assembleia da República will debate the issue tomorrow (Friday 2nd September).