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compare and contrast: UK and Canada

compare and contrast: UK and Canada

Old Sep 26th 2010, 1:00 am
  #1  
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Default compare and contrast: UK and Canada

compare this....

CANADA

http://www.nationalpost.com/news/story.html?id=2248669

OFFICER IS CONVICTED of BREAKING MAN'S FACIAL BONES AND TEETH, PUT ON PROBATION FOR 18 MONTHS, BUT KEEPS HIS JOB with a mere REPRIMAND!!!


with this....


UK

http://www.wiltshire.police.uk/index...mes&Itemid=565


OFFICER SENT TO PRISON FOR 6 MONTHS FOR A SLIGHT CUT TO DRUNKEN WOMAN'S HEAD, THEN SACKED, LOSES JOB,PENSION, EVERYTHING!!!!

GREAT TO BE A POLICE OFFICER IN THE UK, ISN'T IT????
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Old Sep 27th 2010, 12:28 am
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Default Re: compare and contrast: UK and Canada

The Wiltshire sergeant deserved to go to jail - an absolute disgrace and made me embarrassed to have been a UK Police Officer. As for the Canadian cop, he too should have been sent to jail.

Your thread is stupid and naive and if you think its great to be in Canada because a cop can beat people up and get away then you to are a disgrace to your proffession!
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Old Sep 27th 2010, 9:08 am
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Default Re: compare and contrast: UK and Canada

I agree with you Jed, what a tit! Although the internal punishment within Canadian police services seems to be less harsh than in the UK. Luckily there are only a minority within the police service that think it is OK to dish out gratuitous beatings and hopefully they will continue to be weeded out in both countries.
Looking at previous threads Mr Fawkes you are applying to join RCMP or Border agency. I suggest you change your outlook and just become a good cop wherever you find employment. Its a great job to be in dont fall in to the trap of thinking its a power trip. The public deserve to be treated properly.
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Old Sep 27th 2010, 3:57 pm
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Default Re: compare and contrast: UK and Canada

Firstly, I am currently a supervisor in my own force with over 14 years’ service, thank you very much. Pompey Boy.

Secondly, note that I did not state ANYWHERE this officer did nothing wrong at all: however giving someone a 3 year prison sentence, for causing what is a MINOR injury by a moment’s act of recklessness is entirely disproportionate as is having him lose his job and pension.

Fine him, reprimand him, demote him, counsel him, put a red letter in his file, but jailing him? Plus take away his income and put his family out of their home?

You think that’s proportionate?

I don’t think EITHER that that RCMP officer was in line with what he did. However it is a reflection on the way society treats its officers: pillorying them or letting them get off Scot-free? I don’t say either extreme is fine, but is a reflection on how society judges its police officers.

I have discussed this case with numerous colleagues the same rank of me, higher, and lower, and secondly with our own Sergeant’s Federation reps and it is generally agreed that this incident has been blown out of proportion and the punishment meted out is too harsh.

Many colleagues have used the familiar term “There but for the grace of God go I”.

Would I have done what that officer did? No, the smart thing to do would have been to get 2 or 3 other officers to assist in taking her to the cell. I can’t say why he didn’t do this, however I haven’t seen the entire unedited version of the video. Have you?

Oh sorry, didn’t know you had ready access to the full facts and unedited version of events where you are.

If I had seen this incident occur, would I have reported it? Certainly. But I’d expect that the whole circumstances be taken into account and any punishment be proportionate.

I have had cases of far more serious assault involving fractures, S20, S18, where the offender has got “community service order”. So because he is a police officer he gets 3 years jail?

What is more members of the public here even have shown support for the officer.

Don’t patronise me with your comments on “being a good police officer”.

I’ve never had a complaint of excessive force upheld against me and never will, but I can see how it is so easy for an officer to go over that thin line between proportionate and disproportionate use of force.

I just had someone sentenced to 18 months jail for a GBH I had to track down to Dubai.

And just what did you do at work today?

Given the general nature of your bitterness towards policing, “Pompey Boy” (pick a better nickname for God’s sake), just focus on being a better police officer yourself. In Edmonton or wherever that may be.

I really have no interest in any form of communication with you.
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Old Sep 27th 2010, 4:32 pm
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Default Re: compare and contrast: UK and Canada

So “Respect Tradition” who

1) isn’t a police officer any more: you QUIT before you would even have passed basic training. Nice one. Waste of taxpayer’s money.

2) who makes an inappropriate and derogatory speech against the UK in general. No expletives in any of my postings.

Call me stupid? I call you a quitter.

“A disgrace to the profession” : off duty I rescued and assisted 2 women and a man from being robbed on a work trip to Paris last year.

Commended for “sensitive handling” of numerous rape cases.

SUPERVISOR.

You’re not even IN the profession any more because you couldn’t cut it.

At least I still serve the Queen and have a badge in my wallet.

I have served in BOTH the UK and in Canada just to be clear. I am currently serving as a SUPERVISORY RANK POLICE OFFFICER. More than you are.

I am not going to elaborate on this further.

I have clean disciplinary records both in my service here in the UK and in Canadian Forces.

I may or may not return to work in Canada following my recent promotion.

I do NOT approve of officers using EXCESSIVE force and I would take appropriate action myself to deal with such, as is a requirement of my own position.

However, I posted the above to enlighten SERVING POLICE OFFICERS reading this, that there is a marked difference in the manner in which POLICE OFFICERS are treated by the media, and by disciplinary boards and the judicial system in each country.

I have spoken to MY OWN contacts in Canada, the US, Europe and all agree that the treatment meted out to this sergeant was overboard.

This includes RCMP, TPS, the Dutch and German police as well as numerous colleagues in the UK.

The Federation in the UK has serious concerns for the outcome of this matter and also for what set may set as a precedent for future cases.

I will not enter into further discourse with either of the above posters, however will do with SERVING Officers who wish to discuss, politely, the concerns about this matter.
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Old Sep 28th 2010, 4:06 pm
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Default Re: compare and contrast: UK and Canada

It says here the Mounties can only either a) Fire you or b) Dock you 10 days pay.

http://www.thestarphoenix.com/opinio...034/story.html

In the UK any breach of the rules by someone at the front line is a opportunity for somebody higher up to get promoted (I've seen it happen). Over here there's a tendency to stick together a bit more (I've seen that happen too).
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Old Sep 29th 2010, 7:11 am
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Default Re: compare and contrast: UK and Canada

Originally Posted by guyfawkes
Firstly, I am currently a supervisor in my own force with over 14 years’ service, thank you very much. Pompey Boy.

Secondly, note that I did not state ANYWHERE this officer did nothing wrong at all: however giving someone a 3 year prison sentence, for causing what is a MINOR injury by a moment’s act of recklessness is entirely disproportionate as is having him lose his job and pension.

Fine him, reprimand him, demote him, counsel him, put a red letter in his file, but jailing him? Plus take away his income and put his family out of their home?

You think that’s proportionate?

I don’t think EITHER that that RCMP officer was in line with what he did. However it is a reflection on the way society treats its officers: pillorying them or letting them get off Scot-free? I don’t say either extreme is fine, but is a reflection on how society judges its police officers.

I have discussed this case with numerous colleagues the same rank of me, higher, and lower, and secondly with our own Sergeant’s Federation reps and it is generally agreed that this incident has been blown out of proportion and the punishment meted out is too harsh.

Many colleagues have used the familiar term “There but for the grace of God go I”.

Would I have done what that officer did? No, the smart thing to do would have been to get 2 or 3 other officers to assist in taking her to the cell. I can’t say why he didn’t do this, however I haven’t seen the entire unedited version of the video. Have you?

Oh sorry, didn’t know you had ready access to the full facts and unedited version of events where you are.

If I had seen this incident occur, would I have reported it? Certainly. But I’d expect that the whole circumstances be taken into account and any punishment be proportionate.

I have had cases of far more serious assault involving fractures, S20, S18, where the offender has got “community service order”. So because he is a police officer he gets 3 years jail?

What is more members of the public here even have shown support for the officer.

Don’t patronise me with your comments on “being a good police officer”.

I’ve never had a complaint of excessive force upheld against me and never will, but I can see how it is so easy for an officer to go over that thin line between proportionate and disproportionate use of force.

I just had someone sentenced to 18 months jail for a GBH I had to track down to Dubai.

And just what did you do at work today?

Given the general nature of your bitterness towards policing, “Pompey Boy” (pick a better nickname for God’s sake), just focus on being a better police officer yourself. In Edmonton or wherever that may be.

I really have no interest in any form of communication with you.
Of course you have otherwise you wouldn't be on here,that is the whole point of a discussion forum, to discuss topics.
Maybe the UK officer was treated harshly, maybe the Candian officer wasn't treated harshly enough.
You have no idea what sort of a cop I am or what I did today and you also have no idea if one day we might work alongside each other. I am certainly not bitter towards policing I love it.
Now you have sort of clarified why you chose to compare the two disciplinary measures I sort of get your point.
Now run along and be a good supervisor.
Oh and Pompeyboy is a fine nickname for a lad from Pompey don't you think.
Guy Fawkes? Explain that one to us please! A quitter who ran off to fight for the Spanish and then joined the plot to assasinate the English King.
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Old Sep 30th 2010, 5:47 pm
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Default Re: compare and contrast: UK and Canada

Originally Posted by guyfawkes
So “Respect Tradition” who

1) isn’t a police officer any more: you QUIT before you would even have passed basic training. Nice one. Waste of taxpayer’s money.

2) who makes an inappropriate and derogatory speech against the UK in general. No expletives in any of my postings.

Call me stupid? I call you a quitter.

“A disgrace to the profession” : off duty I rescued and assisted 2 women and a man from being robbed on a work trip to Paris last year.

Commended for “sensitive handling” of numerous rape cases.

SUPERVISOR.

You’re not even IN the profession any more because you couldn’t cut it.

At least I still serve the Queen and have a badge in my wallet.

I have served in BOTH the UK and in Canada just to be clear. I am currently serving as a SUPERVISORY RANK POLICE OFFFICER. More than you are.

I am not going to elaborate on this further.

I have clean disciplinary records both in my service here in the UK and in Canadian Forces.

I may or may not return to work in Canada following my recent promotion.

I do NOT approve of officers using EXCESSIVE force and I would take appropriate action myself to deal with such, as is a requirement of my own position.

However, I posted the above to enlighten SERVING POLICE OFFICERS reading this, that there is a marked difference in the manner in which POLICE OFFICERS are treated by the media, and by disciplinary boards and the judicial system in each country.

I have spoken to MY OWN contacts in Canada, the US, Europe and all agree that the treatment meted out to this sergeant was overboard.

This includes RCMP, TPS, the Dutch and German police as well as numerous colleagues in the UK.

The Federation in the UK has serious concerns for the outcome of this matter and also for what set may set as a precedent for future cases.

I will not enter into further discourse with either of the above posters, however will do with SERVING Officers who wish to discuss, politely, the concerns about this matter.
My word we really have rattled your cage haven't we! You have 14 years service, I applaud you - before I QUIT as you call it I completed 19 years Police service in England before moving to Canada so by my reckoning you have a few years to go to catch me up. Your attitude is one of the reasons I'm glad I'm not associated to the Police anymore - you should be ashamed of yourself!
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Old Oct 1st 2010, 4:33 pm
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Default Re: compare and contrast: UK and Canada

Originally Posted by stewie_griffin
It says here the Mounties can only either a) Fire you or b) Dock you 10 days pay.

http://www.thestarphoenix.com/opinio...034/story.html

In the UK any breach of the rules by someone at the front line is a opportunity for somebody higher up to get promoted (I've seen it happen). Over here there's a tendency to stick together a bit more (I've seen that happen too).
that's only under the RCMP Act - which is seriously outdated. It still does not preclude criminal charges being laid if warranted.
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Old Oct 1st 2010, 4:53 pm
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Default Re: compare and contrast: UK and Canada

I watched the video on you tube and all i saw is someone being heavy-handed and clearly frustrated (or did I miss something). I doubt there was any real intent on his part to hurt her. He did not deserve being fired and certainly did not deserve a jail term, what a crock. I've seen far worse here than that, not that I'm conding it but come on....... As guyfawkes noted, there were numerous ways he could have been dealt with short of being fired and jailed!!!!!!!!!!!. The female was also clearly being resistant and needs to take some responsability " i thought i was going to die" what a total crock.

I am very glad I'm not a copper in the UK at least here there's a more balanced approach and you are not simply strung out to dry just because you are a copper who ****s up.
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Old Oct 1st 2010, 4:54 pm
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Default Re: compare and contrast: UK and Canada

Originally Posted by respecttradition
The Wiltshire sergeant deserved to go to jail - an absolute disgrace and made me embarrassed to have been a UK Police Officer. As for the Canadian cop, he too should have been sent to jail.

Your thread is stupid and naive and if you think its great to be in Canada because a cop can beat people up and get away then you to are a disgrace to your proffession!
no he didn't............................................ .
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Old Oct 1st 2010, 5:03 pm
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Default Re: compare and contrast: UK and Canada

Originally Posted by Pompeyboy
I agree with you Jed, what a tit! Although the internal punishment within Canadian police services seems to be less harsh than in the UK. Luckily there are only a minority within the police service that think it is OK to dish out gratuitous beatings and hopefully they will continue to be weeded out in both countries.
Looking at previous threads Mr Fawkes you are applying to join RCMP or Border agency. I suggest you change your outlook and just become a good cop wherever you find employment. Its a great job to be in dont fall in to the trap of thinking its a power trip. The public deserve to be treated properly.
Originally Posted by respecttradition
The Wiltshire sergeant deserved to go to jail - an absolute disgrace and made me embarrassed to have been a UK Police Officer. As for the Canadian cop, he too should have been sent to jail.

Your thread is stupid and naive and if you think its great to be in Canada because a cop can beat people up and get away then you to are a disgrace to your proffession!
Think you are both being overly harsh.... i saw the post as contasting the overly punative treatment of the UK member rather than suggesting what the RCMP member did was ok (which it wasn't) and as sgt in the RCMP i can assure you that such actions would be met with disgust.
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Old Oct 1st 2010, 10:59 pm
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Default Re: compare and contrast: UK and Canada

Originally Posted by respecttradition
My word we really have rattled your cage haven't we! You have 14 years service, I applaud you - before I QUIT as you call it I completed 19 years Police service in England before moving to Canada so by my reckoning you have a few years to go to catch me up. Your attitude is one of the reasons I'm glad I'm not associated to the Police anymore - you should be ashamed of yourself!
I would have thought with 19 years of service you would have enough appreciation of the difficulties of the job to cut the fired sarge some slack and see his actions for what they were.
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Old Oct 2nd 2010, 5:48 am
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Default Re: compare and contrast: UK and Canada

Originally Posted by dboy
I would have thought with 19 years of service you would have enough appreciation of the difficulties of the job to cut the fired sarge some slack and see his actions for what they were.
Just watched the video and yes he is heavy handed. What right does he have to throw anyone to the concrete floor like that? He could have put her in the cell and walked away. If that was your wife/girlfriend/ significant other then you would want his balls on a plate. It was an assault resulting in the female, who as we heard was intoxicated, needing several stitches to a wound that she didnt have before she got to the custody centre. He should have stayed behind his desk. I'm not suggesting that he wasnt tired, frustrated or whatever was floating his boat that day but he cannot behave like that.
And you are dead right there is a stark difference between police punishment in the UK and here in Canada, I was once suspended for 7 months for 3 inappropriate joke e-mails and thought I would lose my job so I can understand your thinking, but what he did was not right and certainly not what he is paid to do.
Maybe he will appeal and get his job back and hopefully if he does he has learnt his lesson. There is a very thin line we tread every time we go out to work but he lost his temper resulting in a pretty nasty injury to the girl and that is the sort of thing we are paid to prevent, prosecute and bring to justice.
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Old Oct 2nd 2010, 2:36 pm
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Default Re: compare and contrast: UK and Canada

Originally Posted by Pompeyboy
Just watched the video and yes he is heavy handed. What right does he have to throw anyone to the concrete floor like that? He could have put her in the cell and walked away. If that was your wife/girlfriend/ significant other then you would want his balls on a plate. It was an assault resulting in the female, who as we heard was intoxicated, needing several stitches to a wound that she didnt have before she got to the custody centre. He should have stayed behind his desk. I'm not suggesting that he wasnt tired, frustrated or whatever was floating his boat that day but he cannot behave like that.
And you are dead right there is a stark difference between police punishment in the UK and here in Canada, I was once suspended for 7 months for 3 inappropriate joke e-mails and thought I would lose my job so I can understand your thinking, but what he did was not right and certainly not what he is paid to do.
Maybe he will appeal and get his job back and hopefully if he does he has learnt his lesson. There is a very thin line we tread every time we go out to work but he lost his temper resulting in a pretty nasty injury to the girl and that is the sort of thing we are paid to prevent, prosecute and bring to justice.
I never said he had a right to do what he did. I'm not suggesting that what he did was acceptable, clearly it wasn't, but should not have resulted in a jail term or even the loss of his job (assuming that was a one-off). I have no idea what the set up is in the UK cells and what procedures in place for what he's supposed to do, but if someone is being non-compliant and wont walk to cells what is one supposed to do?

I once arrested a female shop lifter with warrants at Walmart who refused to come with me, i dragged her through the store much like in the youtube video and had to fight with her in to the police car, it could easily have resulted in a similar injury (i had no back up incidentally due to priority calls and was alone).

I think the UK has become too politically correct and once we stop recognising the difficulties associated with the job and stop making allowances we have totally lost perspective. We are, after all human, and yes we are held to higher standard. He could have been given a non-custodial sentence and the same point would have been made.
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