Hospitals/Community
Mar 28th 2005, 3:50 pm
#16
Forum Regular
Joined: Sep 2004
Location: east sussex england
Posts: 52
Re: Hospitals/Community
Hi Sarah
Just read your post about your patient that cancelled her contract. That must be so difficult- not sure how I would cope with that. If she was able to get to the doctors surgery for treatment, would she then be treated under medicare? Is it because she can't afford the cost or does she just not want to spend the money. Is there provision for hardship cases?
The dressing you were talking about sounds like intrasite conformable- great for packing sloughy cavities, we use it where I work. We are very lucky in the UK as, where I work, the GP's give us more or less free reign to use any dressings we like. However, i think sometimes this can lead to wasteful practice. The sister I work with likes to use Actisorb (silver /charcoal ) with an Aquacel over the top! That's about a tenners worth of dressing each change. Is compression used a lot for leg ulcers?
Is there much health promotion going on in the community there- monitoring of cardiac/diabetic patients etc. or does this only happen in the GP surgeries. You said that community nurses don't take bloods or give immunisations- do the doctors do this then. Can't believe that a doc came out to a patient to swab a wound! Do they take your word that a patient needs antibiotics, or would they visit to check.
Sorry for all the questions, but your our community oracle
thanks again
Lesley.
Just read your post about your patient that cancelled her contract. That must be so difficult- not sure how I would cope with that. If she was able to get to the doctors surgery for treatment, would she then be treated under medicare? Is it because she can't afford the cost or does she just not want to spend the money. Is there provision for hardship cases?
The dressing you were talking about sounds like intrasite conformable- great for packing sloughy cavities, we use it where I work. We are very lucky in the UK as, where I work, the GP's give us more or less free reign to use any dressings we like. However, i think sometimes this can lead to wasteful practice. The sister I work with likes to use Actisorb (silver /charcoal ) with an Aquacel over the top! That's about a tenners worth of dressing each change. Is compression used a lot for leg ulcers?
Is there much health promotion going on in the community there- monitoring of cardiac/diabetic patients etc. or does this only happen in the GP surgeries. You said that community nurses don't take bloods or give immunisations- do the doctors do this then. Can't believe that a doc came out to a patient to swab a wound! Do they take your word that a patient needs antibiotics, or would they visit to check.
Sorry for all the questions, but your our community oracle
thanks again
Lesley.
Last edited by lesley street; Mar 28th 2005 at 3:52 pm.
Mar 28th 2005, 3:52 pm
#17
Joined: Sep 2004
Posts: 2,129
Re: Hospitals/Community
Yeah and also who gives the diabetics their Insulin if they can't manage themselves?
I do 2 diabetics on the way to work every morning!?
Lynn
I do 2 diabetics on the way to work every morning!?
Lynn
Mar 29th 2005, 8:09 am
#18
Just Joined
Joined: Mar 2004
Location: Wales UK
Posts: 27
Re: Hospitals/Community
Sorry folks i know the thread is a little old but hace they not heard of evidence based medicine and clinical governace??
Working as charge nurse in primary care stuns me, as you probably know i'm planning on going out there, the consultants here and GP's takje our advice and we advise them on wound care. Slightly shocked. Is it a financial thing? Seems mad that if you can affors it you get it, if you can't you don't.
Cheers
David
PS i hate bedbaths!! (Male Nurse thing I guess :-) )
Working as charge nurse in primary care stuns me, as you probably know i'm planning on going out there, the consultants here and GP's takje our advice and we advise them on wound care. Slightly shocked. Is it a financial thing? Seems mad that if you can affors it you get it, if you can't you don't.
Cheers
David
PS i hate bedbaths!! (Male Nurse thing I guess :-) )
Mar 29th 2005, 12:34 pm
#19
We arrived november 2004
Joined: Aug 2002
Location: Meadows (Adelaide)
Posts: 408
Re: Hospitals/Community
Hi Leslie
The lady with the leg ulcer I know would not go to the doctor as she is housebound and I can't remember if her Dr does home visits or not. The other thing to remember that it is possible she would have to pay to see her Dr unless he is on direct billing. As I understand it medicare does not cover district nursing and not all private healthcare does either. There is the facility to receive a fee waver but I do not know what the criteria is. I know that this lady did not fit it though.
Your mention of wasteful practice was one of my ways of coping in the first few weeks. This is week eight in the job I am feeling more comfortable now.
You wont get free reign of dressings but you can put a case for wanting a different dressing but if the recommendations have come from the hospital that is what you will have to use. Compression bandaging is common I have a few on the go at the moment. Just glad it wasn't me in the bandages when the temp was 40 degrees a few weeks back.
I am not aware of any health promotion going on but it is possible that it has just me by. On saying that as a perk of the job you can have a free flu jab so I suppose that is a health promotion. I pressume that the patients have to pay and it is done by the Dr I'll try and find out tomorrow. I have to say my clients are very helpful and give me more info than the staff I work with. There are quite a few companies that come out to take blood clinipath is one that springs to mind. I am not to sure about practice nurses and what they do.
Blood glucose monitors are behind what we use in the uk and the practise for taking blood from the finger is to use the finger pad and not the side of the finger as I have been used to. Insulin is limited in what is available lantus for example is private prescription only and $100 per vial. The government removed long acting insulins and I have a client who is having great difficulty with becoming stable on mixatard 30/70. There are only about five different types of insulin on the market here.
I think the only reason the Dr came to take the swab was the client had four lots of antibiotics for an infection in her leg and until I suggested it, it hadn't been thought of.
I have to say the care the palliative care patients receive is very efficient. One of my clients had deteriorated greatly over the holiday weekend I went into her at 11.30 today rang the palliative care nurse at the hospital the consultant rang me back I went back to see her at 2.30 and the consultant and gp had been out to see her and reviewed her care.
David I am only new to the job here and did not work as DN in the Uk so you may have to go with me while I find my feet. But at the moment the view I have is if you cant afford it and cant get the fee waver then you don't get it.
You can tell me I am nieve but I have even been into patients that do not have beds, they sleep on the floor. How they ever manage to get up off of the floor is beyond me. Information is not as freely given as it is in the workplace in the Uk so I have to find a lot out for myself and that takes times.
Like probably most of you have done I looked at the research that has been coming out of australia before we moved over but I have not found any of the research in practice. Which is rather sad. I miss my nursing mags you cannot buy any in the newsagents like you can in the UK. It seems to be mainly from the internet. The work library does have journals that you can subscribe to but it seems to be a long wait to get anything.
Lynn the job does pay for the petrol but with it just being a work car it does mean we have a second car so I can drive to work to get to the work car.
For a level 2 job it is ability to do the job. However the nurses say it is not worth having as the only thing you get out of the job is a parking space. The agro for this job is apparently great.
I found it really easy to get this job it was the first job I applied for. The interview was long though 2 1/2 hrs there is then a physical assessment that you have to pass that takes an hour and you will ache the next day.
Sarah
The lady with the leg ulcer I know would not go to the doctor as she is housebound and I can't remember if her Dr does home visits or not. The other thing to remember that it is possible she would have to pay to see her Dr unless he is on direct billing. As I understand it medicare does not cover district nursing and not all private healthcare does either. There is the facility to receive a fee waver but I do not know what the criteria is. I know that this lady did not fit it though.
Your mention of wasteful practice was one of my ways of coping in the first few weeks. This is week eight in the job I am feeling more comfortable now.
You wont get free reign of dressings but you can put a case for wanting a different dressing but if the recommendations have come from the hospital that is what you will have to use. Compression bandaging is common I have a few on the go at the moment. Just glad it wasn't me in the bandages when the temp was 40 degrees a few weeks back.
I am not aware of any health promotion going on but it is possible that it has just me by. On saying that as a perk of the job you can have a free flu jab so I suppose that is a health promotion. I pressume that the patients have to pay and it is done by the Dr I'll try and find out tomorrow. I have to say my clients are very helpful and give me more info than the staff I work with. There are quite a few companies that come out to take blood clinipath is one that springs to mind. I am not to sure about practice nurses and what they do.
Blood glucose monitors are behind what we use in the uk and the practise for taking blood from the finger is to use the finger pad and not the side of the finger as I have been used to. Insulin is limited in what is available lantus for example is private prescription only and $100 per vial. The government removed long acting insulins and I have a client who is having great difficulty with becoming stable on mixatard 30/70. There are only about five different types of insulin on the market here.
I think the only reason the Dr came to take the swab was the client had four lots of antibiotics for an infection in her leg and until I suggested it, it hadn't been thought of.
I have to say the care the palliative care patients receive is very efficient. One of my clients had deteriorated greatly over the holiday weekend I went into her at 11.30 today rang the palliative care nurse at the hospital the consultant rang me back I went back to see her at 2.30 and the consultant and gp had been out to see her and reviewed her care.
David I am only new to the job here and did not work as DN in the Uk so you may have to go with me while I find my feet. But at the moment the view I have is if you cant afford it and cant get the fee waver then you don't get it.
You can tell me I am nieve but I have even been into patients that do not have beds, they sleep on the floor. How they ever manage to get up off of the floor is beyond me. Information is not as freely given as it is in the workplace in the Uk so I have to find a lot out for myself and that takes times.
Like probably most of you have done I looked at the research that has been coming out of australia before we moved over but I have not found any of the research in practice. Which is rather sad. I miss my nursing mags you cannot buy any in the newsagents like you can in the UK. It seems to be mainly from the internet. The work library does have journals that you can subscribe to but it seems to be a long wait to get anything.
Lynn the job does pay for the petrol but with it just being a work car it does mean we have a second car so I can drive to work to get to the work car.
For a level 2 job it is ability to do the job. However the nurses say it is not worth having as the only thing you get out of the job is a parking space. The agro for this job is apparently great.
I found it really easy to get this job it was the first job I applied for. The interview was long though 2 1/2 hrs there is then a physical assessment that you have to pass that takes an hour and you will ache the next day.
Sarah
Mar 29th 2005, 2:34 pm
#20
Joined: Sep 2004
Posts: 2,129
Re: Hospitals/Community
Originally Posted by kentcoast
Hi Leslie
The lady with the leg ulcer I know would not go to the doctor as she is housebound and I can't remember if her Dr does home visits or not. The other thing to remember that it is possible she would have to pay to see her Dr unless he is on direct billing. As I understand it medicare does not cover district nursing and not all private healthcare does either. There is the facility to receive a fee waver but I do not know what the criteria is. I know that this lady did not fit it though.
Your mention of wasteful practice was one of my ways of coping in the first few weeks. This is week eight in the job I am feeling more comfortable now.
You wont get free reign of dressings but you can put a case for wanting a different dressing but if the recommendations have come from the hospital that is what you will have to use. Compression bandaging is common I have a few on the go at the moment. Just glad it wasn't me in the bandages when the temp was 40 degrees a few weeks back.
I am not aware of any health promotion going on but it is possible that it has just me by. On saying that as a perk of the job you can have a free flu jab so I suppose that is a health promotion. I pressume that the patients have to pay and it is done by the Dr I'll try and find out tomorrow. I have to say my clients are very helpful and give me more info than the staff I work with. There are quite a few companies that come out to take blood clinipath is one that springs to mind. I am not to sure about practice nurses and what they do.
Blood glucose monitors are behind what we use in the uk and the practise for taking blood from the finger is to use the finger pad and not the side of the finger as I have been used to. Insulin is limited in what is available lantus for example is private prescription only and $100 per vial. The government removed long acting insulins and I have a client who is having great difficulty with becoming stable on mixatard 30/70. There are only about five different types of insulin on the market here.
I think the only reason the Dr came to take the swab was the client had four lots of antibiotics for an infection in her leg and until I suggested it, it hadn't been thought of.
I have to say the care the palliative care patients receive is very efficient. One of my clients had deteriorated greatly over the holiday weekend I went into her at 11.30 today rang the palliative care nurse at the hospital the consultant rang me back I went back to see her at 2.30 and the consultant and gp had been out to see her and reviewed her care.
David I am only new to the job here and did not work as DN in the Uk so you may have to go with me while I find my feet. But at the moment the view I have is if you cant afford it and cant get the fee waver then you don't get it.
You can tell me I am nieve but I have even been into patients that do not have beds, they sleep on the floor. How they ever manage to get up off of the floor is beyond me. Information is not as freely given as it is in the workplace in the Uk so I have to find a lot out for myself and that takes times.
Like probably most of you have done I looked at the research that has been coming out of australia before we moved over but I have not found any of the research in practice. Which is rather sad. I miss my nursing mags you cannot buy any in the newsagents like you can in the UK. It seems to be mainly from the internet. The work library does have journals that you can subscribe to but it seems to be a long wait to get anything.
Lynn the job does pay for the petrol but with it just being a work car it does mean we have a second car so I can drive to work to get to the work car.
For a level 2 job it is ability to do the job. However the nurses say it is not worth having as the only thing you get out of the job is a parking space. The agro for this job is apparently great.
I found it really easy to get this job it was the first job I applied for. The interview was long though 2 1/2 hrs there is then a physical assessment that you have to pass that takes an hour and you will ache the next day.
Sarah
The lady with the leg ulcer I know would not go to the doctor as she is housebound and I can't remember if her Dr does home visits or not. The other thing to remember that it is possible she would have to pay to see her Dr unless he is on direct billing. As I understand it medicare does not cover district nursing and not all private healthcare does either. There is the facility to receive a fee waver but I do not know what the criteria is. I know that this lady did not fit it though.
Your mention of wasteful practice was one of my ways of coping in the first few weeks. This is week eight in the job I am feeling more comfortable now.
You wont get free reign of dressings but you can put a case for wanting a different dressing but if the recommendations have come from the hospital that is what you will have to use. Compression bandaging is common I have a few on the go at the moment. Just glad it wasn't me in the bandages when the temp was 40 degrees a few weeks back.
I am not aware of any health promotion going on but it is possible that it has just me by. On saying that as a perk of the job you can have a free flu jab so I suppose that is a health promotion. I pressume that the patients have to pay and it is done by the Dr I'll try and find out tomorrow. I have to say my clients are very helpful and give me more info than the staff I work with. There are quite a few companies that come out to take blood clinipath is one that springs to mind. I am not to sure about practice nurses and what they do.
Blood glucose monitors are behind what we use in the uk and the practise for taking blood from the finger is to use the finger pad and not the side of the finger as I have been used to. Insulin is limited in what is available lantus for example is private prescription only and $100 per vial. The government removed long acting insulins and I have a client who is having great difficulty with becoming stable on mixatard 30/70. There are only about five different types of insulin on the market here.
I think the only reason the Dr came to take the swab was the client had four lots of antibiotics for an infection in her leg and until I suggested it, it hadn't been thought of.
I have to say the care the palliative care patients receive is very efficient. One of my clients had deteriorated greatly over the holiday weekend I went into her at 11.30 today rang the palliative care nurse at the hospital the consultant rang me back I went back to see her at 2.30 and the consultant and gp had been out to see her and reviewed her care.
David I am only new to the job here and did not work as DN in the Uk so you may have to go with me while I find my feet. But at the moment the view I have is if you cant afford it and cant get the fee waver then you don't get it.
You can tell me I am nieve but I have even been into patients that do not have beds, they sleep on the floor. How they ever manage to get up off of the floor is beyond me. Information is not as freely given as it is in the workplace in the Uk so I have to find a lot out for myself and that takes times.
Like probably most of you have done I looked at the research that has been coming out of australia before we moved over but I have not found any of the research in practice. Which is rather sad. I miss my nursing mags you cannot buy any in the newsagents like you can in the UK. It seems to be mainly from the internet. The work library does have journals that you can subscribe to but it seems to be a long wait to get anything.
Lynn the job does pay for the petrol but with it just being a work car it does mean we have a second car so I can drive to work to get to the work car.
For a level 2 job it is ability to do the job. However the nurses say it is not worth having as the only thing you get out of the job is a parking space. The agro for this job is apparently great.
I found it really easy to get this job it was the first job I applied for. The interview was long though 2 1/2 hrs there is then a physical assessment that you have to pass that takes an hour and you will ache the next day.
Sarah
Are level 2 community nurses still hands on? Are you divided into nursing teams - ie a level 1 nurse and a level 2 in charge of the caseload or does it not work like that?
Thanks again,
Lynn
Mar 30th 2005, 5:48 am
#21
Just Joined
Joined: Mar 2004
Location: Wales UK
Posts: 27
Re: Hospitals/Community
Sarah
Sorry if you misunderstood, that wasn’t a reflection on you neither do I think you’re naive. I thought maybe they had research in place. I have to admit though I am very surprised to say the least. I had the impression that they were light years away from the UK.
David
Sorry if you misunderstood, that wasn’t a reflection on you neither do I think you’re naive. I thought maybe they had research in place. I have to admit though I am very surprised to say the least. I had the impression that they were light years away from the UK.
David
Mar 30th 2005, 9:36 am
#22
We arrived november 2004
Joined: Aug 2002
Location: Meadows (Adelaide)
Posts: 408
Re: Hospitals/Community
Well today I had a break through moment, week eight wound management assessments. After reaching the point of why am I doing this, I am on the same wave lenght as the CNC who deals with wound management and there are more dressings that can be used 
So my clients maybe up for a dressing review.
Immunisations, well I asked two clients but the most reliable answer I have is the over 65's have free flu jabs unless on private health when it costs $18. Presumably you can claim back from the insurance.
Don't worry about the interview it was just a way of getting to know you and what your thought process was for the job. The time went quickly and I can honestly say that it was the most relaxed interview I have ever had.
The physical is to get an assessment of your level of fitness when you start the job. As you work on your own they want to know you don't have any previous injury that would prevent you working. The assessment is devised in such a way it will identify any injury to back or neck. Plus they will check for any skeletal malformation.
You do work in teams with a teamleader. The teamleader carries a caseload as well. As well as aswering any querries that the team members may have.
Maybe they do have research in place David but I am finding it difficult to discover such things I am regularly fobed off with I don't need to know and have to look things up for myself at home. But to try and build a knowledge base takes time and sharing info would be helpful at work. Particularly with clients that swap between private and public sectors. The job does have a model of nursing it is refered to in the survival guide you receive at the start of the orientation. So I asked to see it, I asked my teamleader who knew nothing about it. The person overseaing the orientation thought it was a section in the guide that turned out to be wrong and I also tried the CNC for Education and she can't find it either. Sometimes you just have to give up.
Sorry guy's I'm not really whinging I'm just frustrated, and frustration is not something I expected with the change of country.
Sarah
So my clients maybe up for a dressing review.Immunisations, well I asked two clients but the most reliable answer I have is the over 65's have free flu jabs unless on private health when it costs $18. Presumably you can claim back from the insurance.
Don't worry about the interview it was just a way of getting to know you and what your thought process was for the job. The time went quickly and I can honestly say that it was the most relaxed interview I have ever had.
The physical is to get an assessment of your level of fitness when you start the job. As you work on your own they want to know you don't have any previous injury that would prevent you working. The assessment is devised in such a way it will identify any injury to back or neck. Plus they will check for any skeletal malformation.
You do work in teams with a teamleader. The teamleader carries a caseload as well. As well as aswering any querries that the team members may have.
Maybe they do have research in place David but I am finding it difficult to discover such things I am regularly fobed off with I don't need to know and have to look things up for myself at home. But to try and build a knowledge base takes time and sharing info would be helpful at work. Particularly with clients that swap between private and public sectors. The job does have a model of nursing it is refered to in the survival guide you receive at the start of the orientation. So I asked to see it, I asked my teamleader who knew nothing about it. The person overseaing the orientation thought it was a section in the guide that turned out to be wrong and I also tried the CNC for Education and she can't find it either. Sometimes you just have to give up.
Sorry guy's I'm not really whinging I'm just frustrated, and frustration is not something I expected with the change of country.
Sarah
Mar 30th 2005, 1:29 pm
#23
Guest
Posts: n/a
Re: Hospitals/Community
So what exactly did the physical require...as have we not all just passed a medical to get there in the first place?
Mar 31st 2005, 5:33 am
#24
Forum Regular
Joined: Sep 2004
Location: east sussex england
Posts: 52
Re: Hospitals/Community
Hi Sarah
So pleased for you that things seem to be falling into place. Thanks so much for the reports- keep them coming!!!!.
Lesley
So pleased for you that things seem to be falling into place. Thanks so much for the reports- keep them coming!!!!.
Lesley
Mar 31st 2005, 11:58 am
#25
We arrived november 2004
Joined: Aug 2002
Location: Meadows (Adelaide)
Posts: 408
Re: Hospitals/Community
Originally Posted by ad4ozz
So what exactly did the physical require...as have we not all just passed a medical to get there in the first place?
I accept no responsablity for any pain you may encounter.
Sarah
Mar 31st 2005, 12:22 pm
#26
Guest
Posts: n/a
Re: Hospitals/Community
'Are they for real' and they stand and watch you do all this....will have to take up yoga...good job I got those two free disc's on the special K....don't they know we are not fit as we have spent months filling in forms to get to Oz and going on BritishExpats... .
.
Mar 31st 2005, 12:57 pm
#27
Joined: Aug 2003
Posts: 8,147
Re: Hospitals/Community
hi sarah,
we havent spoken before but ive been around this site for ages now, and i have to say yours is one of the most informative posts i have read.
Im a nurse, but havent thought about what will happen when i get older - you show a side to healthcare that seems to be very overlooked by us wouldbe /already migrated - migrants! We all banter about how medicare will do this and that, and how private helathcare can make up the shortfalls, but i wonder how many of us have considered our own aged-health provisions? None of us know what is round the corner regarding health and wealth, and your posts have certainly opened my eyes to how my health care may be in my elder years.
excellent post!!
...and i do hope you soon find contentment and satisfaction in your job - theres nothing worse than going home feeling frustrated and unfulfilled!
sue
we havent spoken before but ive been around this site for ages now, and i have to say yours is one of the most informative posts i have read.
Im a nurse, but havent thought about what will happen when i get older - you show a side to healthcare that seems to be very overlooked by us wouldbe /already migrated - migrants! We all banter about how medicare will do this and that, and how private helathcare can make up the shortfalls, but i wonder how many of us have considered our own aged-health provisions? None of us know what is round the corner regarding health and wealth, and your posts have certainly opened my eyes to how my health care may be in my elder years.
excellent post!!
...and i do hope you soon find contentment and satisfaction in your job - theres nothing worse than going home feeling frustrated and unfulfilled!
sue
Apr 1st 2005, 5:40 am
#28
Forum Regular
Joined: Sep 2004
Location: east sussex england
Posts: 52
Re: Hospitals/Community
Hi Sarah
Sorry- more questions.
OMG, tried the leg ones last night- is your bum supposed to be supported when you do them. Managed about 15 seconds. Think I need some practice!!! Did you manage the 2 mins. What happens if you cant hold them that long- do you fail. Seems a bit like torture to me. When you do the standing on one leg dips, are you allowed to steady yourself on something. I do hope so, or else i will be falling over. Did this torture session happen straight after your interview?
Thanks
Lesley
Sorry- more questions.
OMG, tried the leg ones last night- is your bum supposed to be supported when you do them. Managed about 15 seconds. Think I need some practice!!! Did you manage the 2 mins. What happens if you cant hold them that long- do you fail. Seems a bit like torture to me. When you do the standing on one leg dips, are you allowed to steady yourself on something. I do hope so, or else i will be falling over. Did this torture session happen straight after your interview?
Thanks
Lesley
Apr 1st 2005, 6:55 am
#29
Joined: Sep 2004
Posts: 2,129
Re: Hospitals/Community
Originally Posted by lesley street
Hi Sarah
Sorry- more questions.
OMG, tried the leg ones last night- is your bum supposed to be supported when you do them. Managed about 15 seconds. Think I need some practice!!! Did you manage the 2 mins. What happens if you cant hold them that long- do you fail. Seems a bit like torture to me. When you do the standing on one leg dips, are you allowed to steady yourself on something. I do hope so, or else i will be falling over. Did this torture session happen straight after your interview?
Thanks
Lesley
Sorry- more questions.
OMG, tried the leg ones last night- is your bum supposed to be supported when you do them. Managed about 15 seconds. Think I need some practice!!! Did you manage the 2 mins. What happens if you cant hold them that long- do you fail. Seems a bit like torture to me. When you do the standing on one leg dips, are you allowed to steady yourself on something. I do hope so, or else i will be falling over. Did this torture session happen straight after your interview?
Thanks
Lesley
This will worry the hell out of me if I get an interview.
Opinions everyone - is it better to apply for community jobs when i'm actually IN Oz or is it possible to apply for jobs from UK when you actually have visa?
People seem to get hospital jobs easily but not sure if its the same procedure for community ie with telephone intervew and stuff? (listen to me trying to wriggle out of the physical interview
)Lynn
Apr 1st 2005, 7:01 am
#30
Joined: Aug 2003
Posts: 8,147
Re: Hospitals/Community
Originally Posted by lynnlovessun
Opinions everyone - apply for jobs from UK when you actually have visa? Lynn
sue