spid

Now I've read 'that' thread (infamous it is - on other forums it is) and whilst it made me think again it didn't put me off. But it got me thinking . . . . and to be made to do that on a Friday really isn't fair guys! Especially when a lot of you have got a lovely 'garden creatures' party to look forward to next weekend and I haven't.

But (again), whilst I have decided that we still are making the best move for us, and to an area that I think is the best for the kids, and I've found a school I like etc . . . I wondered how many of you felt your kids wouldn't stay around once their education is finished? Personally, I don't think I could say my children would stay in the same country as me no matter where we lived. We've moved around so often that they are very used to it and will probably have wunderlust and explore the world whilst it is still there to be explored. But I do want at least one of them to settle in the same country as me - I will demand looking after in my dotage you see, and I want to see my grandchildren (at least when they are little). You out there that are a little bit further on in the kids zone - have your kids stayed around? How have you found it when they left etc.? Would you consider leaving NZ to go and settle near your kids once they had settled in a different country (say for example, they went back to the UK)?

On the other forum - someone said that their children's expectations work wise had gone down hill and all children wanted now were apprenticeships. Now I realise that this is a sweeping statement and generalisation, but how have you found it - do/ did your children still have great aspiriations? Decide on a career rather than menial work? etc.

Many thanks.

Poppy2

What other thread are you refering to, and how infamous do you think it is? Also what other forum are you refering to? I am a tad confused.

I obviously dont live there anymore, though I did for 4 years and had many friends with children of various ages, some most definately at the College stage of life. There are of course universities in NZ and many Kiwi kids must go there, though there was a study done that showed that few of the ones that started completed any course, and of course we all know that there is a definate brain drain out of NZ for those who do succeed and get a worthy qaulification.

I have to say, though of course we all want to give our kids wings, never underestimate the cost, time and distance involved in trying to visit kids/relatives when they are overseas and you are in NZ. Even if they go no further than Australia, it is still costly to travel there. Probably less so than if they go to the Opposite Island in NZ to you however!

There isnt much in NZ for young people, you have to look around in the usual larger towns in NZ and you see a lot of manual workers, trades and lots of foreign nationals filling up the ranks. And I dont know really how well an NZ education (higher level) stands you anywhere other than Australia. Certainly in my experience an NZ nursing/midwifery qualification is seen as 2nd class to that in the UK and it can present problems when trying to enter some countries for work as it isnt as widely regarded.

From my point of view, my kids got very valuable things from living in NZ - a sense of freedom, going bare foot, beaches to go to every weekend and a totally different horizon to stare at that they never could have had in the UK. But long term I was not seeing a future there for them, not at all. I was reading only the other day that by the age of 11, peers have more influence on the outlooks and aspirations your children may have, and NZ people, though some are widely traveled, are not the most broadminded or cultured people at times. And having left NZ, I have found that my 10 year old was way behind academically when he started in his new school, NZ education was lovely and fluffy, but dated and doesnt equip these kids to compete in the world market.

Just my opinion.

uk+kiwi

I have no idea to which other thread you are referring and cannot answer your questions. But I think the thread is great and I will be interested in reading the replies.

Hubbie is a kiwi. He left for the UK as soon as he finished uni and has not (yet?) returned. All of his best friends came to the UK (London) for at least 5 years. Two have returned (to Auckland) and one has gone to Sydney (I suspect very long term). One never left, but is desperate to move here for career reasons. The two that have returned complain about limited career opportunities (challenge & fun mix, compared to London) BUT are staying whilst their children are young. I think NZ is brilliant for young pre-teen children.

I love NZ. Especially the kiwis. They have a similar outlook to life that I have. We have thought about moving to NZ when the eldest finishes primary school. Which in hindsight I now think is too late. BUT I have concerns over the quality of a lot (not all) of the education, especially in areas I would love to live in. And IMO the long term opportunities are not on a par with the UK. UK vs NZ universities for starters. Having said that, if hubbie could earn more in NZ, we'd already be there. Sadly he could only get (bizarrely) exactly the same numerical amount for his job, aka almost a third of his current UK salary. Which would be utterly unviable. And insulting actually. And probably in Wellington which is not an option for us as a location. If he earnt a serious salary I could understand it, but NZ only has about 1% of the population earning 100k+. You don't move to NZ for the money. What a daft saying. No-one wants to move from 'comfort' to the breadline. So we have a couple of years to figure out a plan B, or we'll be staying until the kids have finished their education I guess. And then who knows. Live for the day and all that.

spid

OKay guys - ignore my first sentence as i can't edit it out now. NO offence meant - please don't take it as such -I am a mere feeble woman with very little brain who was trying to be a little funny.

Other forum is ENZ (Emigrate New Zealand) and the post on this forum has been quite widely discussed on it, unfairly IMHO, but discussed it was. Hence it's infamousy. The thread was http://britishexpats.com/forum/showthread.php?t=519270 which made a lot of us think really hard.

uk+kiwi

I didn't take any offence. I just wanted to point out that I didn't have a clue what you were on about re: the infamous thread.

I did actually read NZGirl's first post when the thread was started, but missed it all from then on! I've only got to the end of the first page just now.

Hand on heart, I believe that as a country, NZ as a whole is not better or worse than the UK. It is different.

Thus depending on what one's priorities, values, expectations, luck and financial circumstances are, will affect whether it is better or worse than one's life before NZ. Better for some, worse for others.

The trick is thus to do everything you can before emigrating to make sure that you're in the former category. With sufficient homework, the pass rate must be high. But it requires 100% honest due diligence. And also, as priorities change, thus one's experience of living in NZ may change - ie right for now, but not for always. Or whatever. Just my opinion.

Right, off to finish THAT thread now .....

Kippers

I think it is a load of BS to say that kids here all end up as apprentices.
For one thing, until very recently apprenticeships had all but disappeared from the NZ landscape.
That's why there is such severe lack of trade skills in NZ and the reason so many trades migrants are needed.
The catch cry from government was "further education". Get a tertiary or university qualification and encouraging as many young people into higher education as possible.

Thinking about my kids and our extended family in NZ. Quite a few have university degrees or are studying at university.
One who's dad is a humble driver, doing a PhD in Welly.

Higher education is accessible to all in NZ and NZ turns out graduates who can readily find work around the world with their skills (yes that is a draw-back, they do fly the coop).

I have to say after reading about someone with recent experience in Wanganui:
This is one of the poorer parts of NZ with a disgruntled and active Maori population (read up on the recent Moutoa Gardens occupation).
To use this experience of Wanganui as a broad brush to paint across the whole of NZ is pretty ridiculous.
I visit Wanganui but don't know if I would actually live there.
The atmosphere in most other parts of NZ is quite different, especially the larger cities.

Kip

spid

Oh. I totally agree - it was a sweeping generalisation and I couldn't relate to it at all.
Excellent.
It's the flying the coop bit I'm not looking forward to. What if they all end up back in the UK? Do we follow? I suppose we could have a house in each if we win the lottery (does NZ have a national lottery?) and spend 1/2 the year in each. I wondered if anyone had any stats on those youngsters that do stay. Mind you by the time they are that old maybe I will be encouraging them to fly the coop - they are still my babies at the moment!

Thanks for the reply.

uk+kiwi

Yes. (And long before the UK did. I first played it in 1992).

spid

ever won anything? - we got four numbers on the UK lottery once - unfortunately so did thousands of others - we got £94.

Poppy2

Motua garden occupation happens every year, not sure how relevant that is to what is being discussed. MY experience isnt limited to wanganui alone, so please dont presume that it is. Also my opinion is just that, my opinion. There are many areas very similar to Wanganui, in the hinterland of NZ and many people who choose to live in such areas, so that is also relelvant in my opinion.

There are fine examples of successes educationally within kiwi families, of course there are, but for the majority of NZ they are grossly underschooled. Simple fact. Not a place to raise my kids after Primary level in my opinion.

Until you live there I dont know that you can assume anything either - Spid, am I right in saying you arent there yet?

Kippers

You were the one that raised the Maori issue in an earlier thread. Saying how it affected life in NZ.
The 1995 occupation of Motua Gardens was a major confrontation between local Maori, council, Government, police and the non-Maori population of Wanganui and the wider NZ community.
It was a seminal time.
The annual re-occupation is just a celebration of that incident.

Wanganui has a particularly strong tribal based culture because of the many Marae that existed along the Wanganui river in times past and is a hot-bed for Maori radicalism.
The Maori Party MP Tariana Turia is based there along with her followers.
Few or no Maori were in or around say, Palmerston North, so there is not the same level of grievance there.

To say that NZ children are under-schooled is utter rubbish.
My children have done extremely well with a NZ education and probably would never have had the same opportunities or the easy access higher education levels they are achieving here.
But then, I only had a crappy Secondary Modern education and wasn't privately schooled so that could be the difference in perception.


Kip

Nerine

Sorry mate, don't read any other forums - most of them are either plain boring or cr@p.

southerner

On the flying the coop thing - I think the so-called brain drain is over reported. My experience is that 95% of young kiwis who go out into the big world, do return to NZ eventually. Probably most within 3-4 years. (and Australia is not the big world in most kiwis eyes, its like going from Scotland to London).

As an example, I myself went to London and ending up staying 10 years. As you do, you meet plenty of other kiwis in the first couple of years over there. Of all my acquantainces only one or two outstayed me, and most were back in NZ or Sydney long before I was.

On the qualifications side of things, I never spoke to a kiwi who thought they were disadvantaged in the international job market because of their education or qualifications. Often the opposite is true. The fact they can travel overseas and get good well paying jobs speaks volumes, doesn't it??

lardyl

Deja vu strikes......
http://britishexpats.com/forum/showthread.php?t=511473
If we're going to talk about higher educational standards/oportunities I'd say that this thread is a good pre-amble to disucussion.
I'll still maintain that the primary system here is good but it all goes to custard by the time you get your degree......compared to UK of course!
Having said that, there is a lot of opportunity as many degrees are open to all, but then that is likely to lower standards.
To the OP, you are not alone in wondering when being in NZ is going to become a liability to your kids rather than the great advantage it is when they are still children.

Nerine

Are we talking post NCEA here?

As for graduates, now that they have student loans to pay off it will be interesting to see how many can afford to return home.