Originally Posted by dannigirl

I agree with much of what you say! I totally agree that parenting skills or lack thereof is not totally dependant on socio-economic status, or culture, or class....however I can't remember the last time, if ever, when I have worked with a a middle class parent. Child abuse and bad parenting does span all classes, all cultures, all socio-economic groups but as you quite rightly point out the middle class bad parenting is seen as bohemian and bourgeoisie (Sp?). Sorry, I did have a bit of a rant about the underclasses here, mostly because that is what my job involves and people seem to ignore it if it doesn't affect their life. I totally acknowledge that bad parenting takes many forms, just most are not held to account in any way. I was probably just taking it too personally regarding the comment about NZ being the land of bad parenting - I am a typical kiwi and take things far too literally - my bad

Originally Posted by Kiwilass

Have you read any Gordon NEufeld? he's pretty interesting on the topic of out of control kids.

Originally Posted by jennifer45

I'm just sad that some of the good things that drew me to NZ, the laid back life style, it's social/family values seem to be eroding away in the helter skelter race to achieve 'the latest status symbol' and ape the UK and USA etc.

Originally Posted by Am Loolah

No Australians ...

Oh, someone had to say it.

Originally Posted by jennifer45

Danni, please don't think I was criticising your comments. I appreciate yours is a harrowing job and you were drawing on your experiences which tended to focus on the underclasses.
I was merely trying to present a broader picture covering the whole of society. The middle classes rarely come to the attention of the authorities in child neglect/abuse cases, yet their children are 'neglected' but in a different more covert way. I would never concur to the notion that NZ is the home of bad parenting. I'm just sad that some of the good things that drew me to NZ, the laid back life style, it's social/family values seem to be eroding away in the helter skelter race to achieve 'the latest status symbol' and ape the UK and USA etc.
It's a long, long way to go before it gets anywhere near as bad as the UK.
Please don't ever apologise for defending your country. There is much that is good about NZ and worthy of defending.
Jennie

Originally Posted by Kiwilass

Have you read any Gordon NEufeld? he's pretty interesting on the topic of out of control kids.

Originally Posted by Kiwilass

Yes.

I read "Hold onto your kids" which is kinda an attachment parenting underground classic here. IT scared the sh*t out of me, but in a good way. He really made me think and it made me look at a lot of things that we (general we) just accept as normal i.e. that kids should spend a lot of time with other kids, not with adults, with new eyes. The whole concept of 'peer orientation' that he talks about as happening now, rather than the traditional, heirachical orientation of a child towards its parents really explains a lot of teen dysfunction imo. I highly recommend you read it if you're interested in this stuff.

And yes it starts with the parents.

Originally Posted by Gun4Hire

Depends on what you do. Australia is quite a few places higher in the GDP per capita for the UK, but I made 3 or 4 times as much money in the UK than you'd make in Australia for the same job. NZ of course is ranked even lower again, but again even today I'd personally get twice as much money in NZ as I'd get in Australia ($45-$70AUD p.h. v $95$140NZD p.h.).

Australia makes and exports nothing but minerals which, happily are worth a lot right now. It is a great country for working people who get paid very well indeed. But for high end professionals the pay is absolutely crap and the tax is sky high. NZ not only exports lamb and dairy products but it also manufactures a fair bit for a small country and creates a lot of high end software. Australia cannot even make aluminium from it's own bauxite they have to get NZ to do that and then of course manufacture windows to send to Europe.

In Australia they have two people per checkout - that's one of the reasons you pay so much for groceries, it is also one of the reasons why unemployment is low - lots of thick people doing pointless jobs. For similar reasons, the average Australian is a bartender in London when they come over but the average Kiwi is a tax lawyer or banker.

It's like saying that America is the best country to work in because it is really huge and extremely successful - it doesn't necessarily correspond to good money in your own personal circumstances.

Australia has been trying to recruit immigrants for ages now, has masses of Muslims, Sudanese, Somalis a huge number from the North of England.

I am not advocating one place over another per se, but you must work out what s best for you in your circumstances. The best money to be made in Australia is made in construction, building and trades - especially if you can get away without paying tax which, is easy in Australia, not so easy for the middle class who get screwed.

Final thing, cars in a Australia are even older and crappier than in NZ, they put huge import duty on decent German cars so people are forced to drive cheap Fords or Holdens (Vauxhall), which is fine if you don't like having choice. I was considering exporting my car from the UK to Australia - the shipping was fair but the taxes were eye watering. They like to kid themselves in Australia that actually have a car industry but given they are just making American cars, that's bollocks.