JWW

The same reason people leave Adelaide and the regional areas of Oz to go to Sydney and Melbourne.

Do you really think the cost of living is cheaper in Sydney, or the weather better in Melbourne?

The people who leave NZ to move to Oz either tend to be younger, ready to make their way in the world, or oldies off to the Gold Coast to spend their last days in the sun.

Due to the fact that most of the head-offices of the major companies reside in Oz there is a natural ceiling to how far you can progress up the corporate ladder, I can quite see why people who feel this is important would move to Oz, Europe or the States. I can also see why a young go-getter who has been brought up in NZ would want to give a bigger, more dynamic environment a go.

Just like the Scots, Irish and Northerners have always gone to London for a spell, some stay...just like NZers in Oz.

Is London a better place than the rest of the country? ...I think not.

This is no way a snipe Don, but it does not supprise me at all that you are not coming back. I can remember having a discussion with you over a year ago where you stated that you would probably go to Oz after you had got your NZ passport, and that was before you had even arrived here. A couple of months in Dunedin looking a penguins hardly scratches the surface my good man.

I would also like to add my support to KiwiJetPilot and echo what he is saying....good job someone can write the truth on here.

hubbard

I am confused. One minute posters pro NZ and its lifestyle say it is full of entrepreneurial kiwis, you can have a good lifestyle versus the wage you earn, you can live in a pleasant climate, in a warm house, enjoying nice scenery. The next it is posted that the majority of Kiwis who depart NZ for Oz do so seeking better job prospects, higher wages (better standard of living?), or wish to retire to live in a warm climate. If the latter is true, how can the initial statements be true? If life in NZ was all that the high numbers would not be departing, and more migrants would be opting for NZ over OZ. Yet OZ is by far the bigger attraction for migrants. I guess it is each to their own and I respect your opinions JWW and Kiwijetpilot and am glad for you that NZ has worked out so well.

JWW

Oz is very predatory towards NZ business. NZ is a country of small business due to the fact as soon as one gets to a resonable size it is normally bought by a larger Australian or American company. Kiwi's are very entrepreneurial, but that in itself suggests small scale.

In the same way Oz is small scale to Europe and the far east. The corporate ceiling is hit a little later in OZ, but then it's off to Singapore and the States I'm afraid.

That is not to say, however, that a good job paying good money is something rare, because it's not. Sometimes is does take a little time to build up when you move to a completely new country where no one knows you though....I think people often expect just to pick up where they left off in England, like moving from Hampshire to Surrey or something.

As for climate, only the northern states are that different, and if you find running round the park with the kids in 40c pleasant then you're welcome to it.

BTW, since when has higher wages equalled higher standard of living? Presumably then New York, London and Tokyo have the best standard of living? ...lets all go there.

Roger

I have been reading Dons post for over two years now and can't remember what he does for a living and where he currently lives. Come on Don tell us where you are and how you are earning £60K there?

I think that are a number of detractors to NZ on this forum at the mo'. If they had been here two years ago I would probably still be in the UK still, and I love Kiwiland. I was put off by the detractors on the Oz forum and could have enjoyed Oz too but am glad with my choice.
Roger

southerner

I'm a big fan of life in NZ, but can see how for many people it financially doesn't make sense. Just as moving from the midlands to London won't make sense for many people either.

I think that was Don's main point, and the bit about housing was merely pointing out that a lot of real estate in NZ has a lower build cost than the equivalent in UK, because the materials used are generally cheaper.

I don't think Don was detracting at all, he would for example be happy to retire here.

JWW

It's amazing how you can be put off. I think people who are considering moving countries are very nervous about it and if they read stuff about gangs and poor standards of living etc it can have a very real effect. Even though its complete and utter bollocks.

You'd think if you had failed to achieve a reasonable standard of living in a country crying out for skilled workers and gone home with your tail between your legs you'd keep it quiet....but no, rattle on and blame everything except your own ineptness.

Cassa

The whole world is crying out for skilled workers but the difference being that some countries pay them well. New Zealand is too small to offer decent salaries. I appreciate that, but the cost of living is high and therefore I think that the government need to be doing more to attract the right people into the economy. I personally feel that if they allowed a million people in tomorrow you would not notice any difference in terms of more people around. In order for New Zealand to operate as a player in the world markets the country has to increase its population. Quickly. Its being left behind, which ever increasing prices for general things and interest rates that will go only one way.

Don't forget, New Zealand NEEDS foreign investment and if people come here in good faith with their British £ or US $ then they come looking for a good opportunity and expect the move to live up to their expectations in some way. Its not happening and even returning Kiwi's are leaving again. Its time for New Zealand to stand up and be counted and stop the whole head in the sand thing.

I think that for a small country there are some serious problems. Its like the dark ages in lots of ways. I find that here woman seem to be 30 years behind woman in Europe. It seems to be that breeding like sheep is the call of the day for them and working and commerce not. I think Helen Clarke trying to get woman back to work is a great thing but that is not going to be done but offering them Arts and Crafts afternoons while pregnant (am currently expecting and am encouraged to do Arts and Crafts and coffee mornings - something I will not be doing. I am currently setting up a company back in the UK). New Zealand needs to look to itself to fill skill shortage. Get these woman away from the craft pens and paper and into some IT training, or into some basic training in skills other than having children.

As a 31 year old, educated Scot, I find I have nothing in common with woman my age here.

New Zealand wont be taken seriously if it can't take itself seriously.

kiwijetpilot

And here we see a prime example of the problem...

Not true. As I have already pointed out. For the sake of time, a quick cut'n'paste:

"In my Scottish house, we spent over 800 pounds on heating fuel (Calor gas) alone, the last year we were there (2003). Electricity cost us over 900 pounds for the year. That works out to roughly NZD4500 for the year, or NZD375 per month. My average power bill here on the Kapiti Coast is NZD188.00 (which includes cooking and heating) - less than half what it cost in the UK - and that is for a house half as big again as my UK house. And I keep the house warm in the winter on that amount."

I am going to do a little study on this to clarify it some more.

Complete and utter bollocks. The houses here are built to similar standards as in the UK. In fact, the NZ building code is a lot more stringent in some areas (part of the earthquake thing). They aren't poorly built, they are built differently to a requirement that is not the same as in the UK. Just because a house isn't built of bricks with a tile roof, does not mean it is poorly built!

You just can't help yourself, can you? The use of such emotive and disparaging language clearly indicates your real agenda.

If you knew anything at all about building, you would know that the external cladding has little to do with heat transfer. It is the insulation between the inner and outer walls that affects heat retention. The more of it you use, and the better it is, the more heat retention you get. NZ learned this in the fifties. It may not be common in Dunedin, but it is in the rest of the country.

Total nonsense. First of all, it isn't tin, it is galvanised and powder-coated steel. Secondly, it is all you need - so why use anything else? Thirdly, it is the insulation in your ceiling, not the roofing material, that keeps the heat in. It isn't used becaue it is cheap per se- it is used because it is an appropriate material for the task. In what way are roofing tiles superior?

What really makes me laugh, is that building standards in the UK are so lax that, when I lived in Livingston, we had whole streets of 15-year-old houses being condemned and knocked down because they were damp and unhealthy. The UK is littered with sub-standard housing - from the Glasgow high-rises of the '60s - damp from the day they were built, and now ghettos - to the soul-less conglomerations of tiny, identical houses on postage-stamp plots, built with window frames guaranteed to rot in ten years (ours did), double glazing that breaks down and needs replacing when it condensates internally (ours did), floors made of untreated particle board (swells and rots at the first sign of moisture - ours did), softwood soffits and bargeboards that warp and twist after two winters (ours did), and so on and so forth. Oh, and that was a Barrat home - supposedly one of the reasonable ones. The quality of construction was a joke.

It is your complete lack of objectivity that gives you away.

The UK suited us for career reasons, and for experiencing what Europe has to offer - and we enjoyed our time there. However, we always knew we would come back before kids got to secondary school, as we had no wish to disrupt those years of their lives. NZ has far more to offer kids.

We are better off financially in NZ. I was earning over 80K pounds, but we rarely had much in the bank at the end of the month. Just affording a half-decent house, with a garden for the kids, costs a fortune in the UK. Never mind the cost of running a couple of cars.

With ease - many around my neighbourhood are - and for a lot less money than you pay in the UK. Unlike the UK, when you see a development of new houses in NZ, they are all different designs - no two look alike, as opposed to the rows of pattern houses you see on UK estates. You specify how you want your house built from the beginning. For example, my friends up the road wanted central heating and double glazing, which was no problem - the double glazing is made locally and central heating systems are cheap and plentiful. The funny part is that they have never used the central heating, and in the summer they have to keep all the windows open as the double glazing makes the house insufferably hot. They are now putting in a heat pump system...

If anyone is interested, I'll make up a short video of some streets around here, and post it on my website for folks to download look at.

Cassa

So why on earth did you live in Livingston? Earning £80K you could afford a wonderful house in Perthshire. Only 40 min max from Edi airport. I am from the area and as far as I am concerend you seemed to pick the most awful part of lothian to live. You had lots of options. You could buy a lovely place for £300K in perthshire, east lothian, borders and fife. Sounds like you made it hard for youself. Also we both know why you went to the UK to fly. I am married to a pilot and am ex airline myself. There were NO opportunites in New Zealand for pilots. Still not many. Your UK/ATPL/JAR licence took you far. There is NO way if you were on £80K in the UK that you were going to earn over $200K here unless you are senior training or base pilot. Of course that doesn't include Air NewZealand mainline but does for all the other majors.

Still cannot believe that you lived in Livingston through choice. Shit, new builds and you didnt have to be there. Amazing.

JWW

How can you say NZ is behind in its attitude to women. The three top jobs in the country are held by women. NZ was the first country to give women the vote.

A lot of women look forward to motherhood as the most important thing they will ever do, and rightly so. Unfortunately in the UK it has been devalued to the point where it's almost an embarrassment. NZ is not 30 years behind, it's just the UK has gone off on a tangent.

I do not subscribe to the latch key children view. A women bringing up her children instead of working should not be disrepected and is far more important than anything you will ever achieve during work hours. If you want someone else to bring up your kids, don't have them.

As more countries turn into industrial wastelands, what NZ has will become far more valuable than commerce.

Cassa

It cuts both ways. I don't want my children brought up by anyone except family. I am setting up a business which means that I will not have to be away from my child. I do however think that it is very important for my child to have a good example in terms of what he or she can be. I think that if I can make extra money for the family and we can enjoy more as a family then I will be giving my child a lot more than working a few hours a day will take away from them. Indeed, go and have children but I do think that there has to be a balance. There is no need for the large families of the past. We need to make our way in this world. We cannot expect to be given a free pass and I strongly feel that woman are just as good in the work place and there is no reason men should not take more of an active role in the upbringing, allowing women to be more than they currently are. While rearing children maybe the most important thing, I also think that how we do that is very important. Stay at home mums are not always that happy and unhappy mums, unhappy kids.

why would the PM try and encourage them back to the workplace if it was a less of a role for them. Encourage all the more and then New Zealand might not have such a shortage of skilled people in certain areas.

I dont know anyone who is embarrassed to have children in the UK. You must know some odd people!

Don

Fair enough point. I was in NZ 6 months, though and travelled all over.

I would have no problem living in NZ at all as regards pretty much everything if it weren't for the money. Big issues like schooling, healthcare, rule of law etc are all good.

The minor issues are climate (get round this by living in warmer & drier bits of NZ plus a few hops to Aus/ Fiji/ Tahiti/ Thailand etc in the depths of winter, money again!), lack of European feel to the historical towns and cities a la Florence, Toledo etc (get round this by trips to Europe).

Oh, and money.

I'm really not bothered about housing as you just have to buy or build a good one in the first place and insulate & heat it properly.

Tayberry

So, you've self-anointed yourself as the fountain of all knowledge then? You feel you are THE ONE to put everyone straight? Talk about delusions of grandeur. Hmmm, and I thought a forum was a place where people could present personal opinions AND not just facts. If I wanted facts, I'd be reading information-only based websites/literature. If you care to read any of my posts, I have shared my own experiences in NZ, which have been very mixed. I've had problems with my work, the public transport, the media and finding Auckland dull-that's hardly a crime. I'm not the first person to experience this and I wont be the last. Why do you take such personal offence for me saying this? I'm not remotely offended if anyone complains about the UK. Everyone is entitled to their opinion-a train of thought you clearly don't seem to adopt.
Yet another example of grandiose thinking..Additionally, where do you get the idea you are in the position to "correct" people of their own personal experiences/opinions? Ooops, I'm sorry, I forgot to add "it's my personal opinion" when I wrote about the media being garbage in NZ. Call the police, I made the worst grammatical faux pas on a forum.... :scared:
Quite frankly, if anyone makes a life changing decision based solely on the contents of a forum needs to question their mentality and their true commitment to moving abroad. Again, I thought the point of a forum was a place to express and offer opinions and advice. Some of these opinions may be viewed as negative but surely that's what open discussions are about? You are bound to get conflicting opinions because people have different expectations, different experiences and differing lifestyle preferences. What do you want? A fluffy, cutesy, 100% positive comment filled forum? That's hardly a true reflection of life is it?
This is just tiresome..another example of grandiose thinking. It's a long battle and hard battle you've got to fight there, but keep going you valiant soldier.

I DO NOT have a chip on my shoulder. I take complete umbrage that you should suggest I do. Anyway, I hardly think you are in any position to make that kind of comment. Three little words spring to mind: pot, kettle and black.

Whilst some of your posts have made for some very interesting and informative reading kiwijetpilot, it's the manner in which you present your opinions and arguments that truly annoy me. You do denigrate people who hold conflicting opinions from yourself. I get the feeling you view your quantitative posts far superior to qualitative posts (please refer to your earlier postings which read like some kind of statistical data analysis). When you are dealing with emotions and experiences, I would have thought the latter form has far more credence in a forum like this.

I apologise for making such a personal attack on you but I do not appreciate being singled out for making some negative comments which don't conform to your beliefs or "fit in" with your facts. Kind regards, Iona.

kiwijetpilot

It was the easiest place to be for access to both Edinburgh and Glasgow airports. Where we were (Deer Park, up by the country club), Livingston was fine. As soon as I no longer had to operate from Glasgow, we moved to Scotlandwell (near Kinross). Really nice spot.

Yes, we did. I don't recall saying, or implying, that we had to live there. It was convenient.

Actually quite few now, lots of hiring happening, hence my move into the flight training market.

Well that is exactly what I was in the UK - both, in fact. Base Captain in Edinburgh and training captain. Most Brit pilots don't earn 80K either.

Well, there you go. It was actually a pretty good place to be, where we were. We didn't spend a lot of time in Dedridge where all the trouble usually is.

More to the point, you won't find me complaining about it, or whinging on and on and on about how the houses weren't to our liking, or the buses were painted the wrong colour, or we couldn't earn enough money to make ends meet (a common problem in Livingston). Our house had it's problems, it was badly built and gave us trouble. But I don't then take the mental leap that Don does, and conclude that a) all UK houses are crap, b) UK housing standards are very low, and c) Brits couldn't build a house to save their lives. That would be silly. Why anyone who has any semblance of an education would believe that Kiwis live in "wooden sheds with tin roofs" is beyond me. A quick survey of Open2View.com will reveal lots of high quality, luxurious houses with all the mod cons - some with considerably better environmental systems that UK houses. All are bigger than most equivalent UK houses, and all would have been cheaper to build. Just look around and open your eyes.

Not from migrants it doesn't. All it wants from migrants is evidence that they will not become a drain on the economy. There is no imperative to only consider wealthy migrants.

Oh do please grow up. Anyone that comes here expecting to make what they did in their home country is deluding themselves. That isn't why people come here - they come here for the way of life. NZ does not go out seeking migrants - we open the door a small amount and they come flooding in. We encourage some highly-qualified people, but most migrants are those looking for a better life. That in itself is what causes some of the problems, this forum is clear evidence that many have come here completely unprepared, and without thinking it through. That is not a failure of New Zealand!

Cassa

Oh, I was under the impression that you were having a go at Livingston actually. What was it about the windows rotting after 10 years and people living on postage stamp bits of land?

Re flying......yes I know £80K + is easy to achieve flying in the UK and I do not doubt that is what you were on but if you are earning the same here it means that you would be on over $200K, which is why I said that you must be a base captain or senior in a company for that kind of cash. There is no point in my arguing with you about the merits of flying in the UK over New Zealand. You proved my point by living and flying in the UK for 16 years. It doesn't take a genius to work out that a country with 10x the amount of people would have many more flying jobs. This is the exact reason so many people leave NZ and Aussie to go and get a UK licence( at great expense) in the first place. Things are happening a little more now in NZ with greater competative market but the salaries are not good. An FO on the 737 with PBlue, Freedom, JetConnect are on a approx $70K. That is not enough and most of them had to buy their own type rating. Capt on approx $120K and again thats not far of what some ryan air guys are on in the UK in £. Big difference. I think that £120k buys a lot more than $120K.

There is little point in arguing about which country is better, which flying is better (although you must miss flying in Europe!) as we will always side with the country we come from. Its natural.

I personally have had a bad experience of living in Christchurch BUT we have met the most wonderful group of friends (even though two of them are Scots - I had to come here to meet them and am grateful for that) We also have the most wonderful little puppy, who will be coming home with us and concieved our baby here so its not all bad, BUT for us its not worked out. HUbby misses flying in the UK, he thinks that they try and reinvent the wheel in terms of flying here and he is a Kiwi so has no reason to slag NZ off.

Its not for everyone and neither is Scotland. We might end up in the Middle East and I am sure that it will come with challenges but for us, now, we are going home.